Go Back   ConceptArt.org Forums > ARTWORK > IT'S FINALLY FINISHED!!
Connect with Facebook
Wiki Register FAQDonate Members List Members World Map Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Googlemap Hotspot Edition

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 25th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Gangus's Avatar
Gangus Gangus is offline
Registered User
Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Madison
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Help my son Ted

This illustration was perhaps the hardest thing I have ever done.Not because of content or style but the subject matter.
Why because it is a painting of my 2 year old boy Teddy. Who has been recently diagnosed with autism.

It is based on a few principles (well unfortunately realities)
Children with autism need early intervention- when their minds are still in that sponge like pliable stage- so that they can develop new pathways of learning and have a better chance at leading the closest thing to what we call a normal life.
Currently in the state of Wisconsin there is an extremely long waiting list to get aid from the government to pay for the proper therapy-called a waiver (aprox. $100,000-$150,000 a year)

The other painful thing is to know that there is a real great child in there. I say "in there" because (as hopefully illustrated in my painting) they are aware and intelligent yet cannot simply communicate or show their love or emotions, which must be so horribly frustrating. (Hence what I feel everyone sees when they think of a child with autism throwing a violent tantrum) Imagine being trapped mentally in what would feel like a permanent claustrophobic cell, wanting to cry out to those you love but not having the voice to do so.

This image was created because of the premises and how sadly and ironically people do not know enough about this condition, yet we all know and love our (what I refer to as) death TV. Shows like Law and Order, CSI, Cold Case, Without a Trace, Bones, etc. Where they will boost their ratings by having horrible atrocities like being buried alive to chill the viewer's imaginations. Worse yet they will use children in their stories to further stir our emotions (Law and Order SVU in my humble opinion by far the most ruthless in doing this).

Anyways- this isn't about violence on TV- It's about how my son is in a way buried alive, and much like the way the shows on TV go- there is a limited amount of time to metaphorically "reach him".

I sincerely hope you like this image and find it stirring enough to help me out. I know a lot of you, and have tried to help many of you out with your artwork in the past,
I do not intend to presume you owe me anything for that- I simply implore that you take a couple minutes out of your day, tell your friends to visit and follow the link that I have provided below to politely voice your opinion in asking the government to lower the time it takes to get children like my son help.
Also to show your support for an upcoming mandate that will push insurance companies to cover children with autism's therapy, for which they currently do nothing.
It doesn't have to be much- a sentence or two and a copy to this link. You do not have to be from Wisconsin or even this country to show your support.

Please consider.


Here is the link:
http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/contact.asp?locid=19
please CC: Robert.Marchant@legis.wisconsin.gov <Robert.Marchant@legis.wisconsin.gov>
Tamlynn Sallows <tsallows@wiautism.com>
kalston@agre.org <kalston@agre.org>

If I have offended or misused this forum to try and proactively use my talents to help him out, and or put you in an uncomfortable position-you
have my most sincere apologies. If the moderators deem this is not the stage to present this personal matter- and choose to move this thread
to a more personal section of this site I understand- you have already been too generous to me in the past and I will take no offence to it being moved.
If you do- I would truly appreciate anything you can do to promote people to visiting this post wherever it may end up.


Respectfully,
Glen aka gangus


I wanted to write and thank Mike Corriero and Conceptart.org for putting this thread at the top of the forum. The response is amazing.

A couple of people have mentioned that they do not know what top write so I thought I would put a basic response (as per suggestion) that you can cut out of this post and paste into the email. I'll also include a link to this thread so that they can come and see the response,as well as repost the links so you don't have to search through the thread to find them.

Here is a cut and paste response to use:

Dear Govenor Doyle and Wisconsin Legislature,
I am writing to voice my support for children diagnosed with autism to recieve treatment as soon as possible. The current waiting list for the waiver program is far too long to get those diagnosed- the intensive therapy that they sorely need. I am also concerned about the mandate that would require insurance companies to cover the cost of therapy. Will they not cover the intensive programs fully? and will this delay or hinder government support even further?
Please follow this link to see how many of us are interested in seeing these issues followed through for Teddy (the little boy in the painting and the many other children who are in desperate need of action.
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90937

Respectfully,________________(your name)


Here is the link for where to send this:

http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/contact.asp?locid=19

please cut and CC the following emails if at all possible:

Robert.Marchant@legis.wisconsin.gov <Robert.Marchant@legis.wisconsin.gov>
kalston@agre.org <kalston@agre.org>

***For those that are not US citizens- I am sure your voices carry just as much weight as well- simply email the CC addresses directly above instead of clicking on the first link.

Thank you so much to everyone again for visiting and voicing your concern and heartfelt wishes to my family.
Respectfully,
Glen Angus

DOWNLOAD THE HI RES IMAGE
PS- I have attached a download link to anyone who wants the hi res version of this piece to use for inspiration or any community purpose.
The illustration and printing rights I give freely.

Here is the ftp address: http://www.gangus.net/Ted.zip
click on the link and simply hit save.

If it is to be used publicly- Please footnote that the image was done by gangus and taken from the kindness of the forum Conceptart.org
(If the moderators do not want any association with this please contact me and I'll remove this part, otherwise I am proud to have
you be affiliated with this)
Attached Images

Attachments Pending Approval
File Type: jpg Teddy_thumb.jpg

Last edited by Gangus; March 2nd, 2007 at 07:18 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old February 25th, 2007, 06:36 PM
zegorg zegorg is offline
Registered User
Level 1 Gladiator: Andabatae
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A really striking and moving picture .
As for the subject matter itself, I send you a PM ...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old February 25th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Mr-Joe's Avatar
Mr-Joe Mr-Joe is offline
Joseph Mysliwiec
Level 8 Gladiator: Thracian
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,008
Thanks: 28
Thanked 20 Times in 13 Posts
I'm sorry to hear that Gangus. , In your artwork, It took me a little while of looking at it to make out the boys face, I would not have know that it was a boy with no mouth without your description of autism and not having a voice to cry out. I hope you are not offended with my critique, I understand this is a touchy subject for you, but I wanted to be honest about my first thoughts about your picture.

Also what do you mean by "vote on this piece to get it more views" ?

Joe.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old February 25th, 2007, 07:32 PM
Craig Houghton's Avatar
Craig Houghton Craig Houghton is offline
Fantastic
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cheshire, CT
Posts: 647
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Craig Houghton
You put some real thought into this, and it shows. I agree that the face was a bit hard to read without the mouth there, but the rest of the illustration is on-target.

Be sure to call your representatives in congress, both the house and the senate, to tell them that you're having a hard time getting the waiver. Visit their local offices as well. Reps can and do act on behalf of individuals, especially to draw attention to a case.

-Craig
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old February 25th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Eric Gerhard's Avatar
Eric Gerhard Eric Gerhard is offline
Registered User
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Posts: 517
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 22 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to Eric Gerhard
I don't know what to say Gangus. I've always been a great fan, mainly because you have very expressive touches upon every work you make.
This piece you've made about your son, made the tears come upon my face.

I live too far from you to give you a hug and to kiss your son's forehead, but I hope you feel hugged by me. My wife and I understand your pain because we both have worked and studied with special people during our lives and we know how hard it is. Just feel free to send me emails or things like that. Here in Brazil we develop many interesting studies about these problems. If I can help you in any way, please let me know.

Peace to your family and never give up on fighting. You can be sure your son loves you a lot, even being so young.

5 stars to you!
__________________
My Sketchbook !!! My Blog !!!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old February 25th, 2007, 08:42 PM
JAG.'s Avatar
JAG. JAG. is offline
stable.. yet unpredictable
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: tx
Posts: 2,169
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Gangus, my heart goes out to you and your family. I admire your artwork and your courage to push this effort for aid. Your work, as usual, is great.. but the emotion behind it makes it more impactful. You have my support, i wish there was more i could do.. - JAG
__________________
it's only after you've lost everything, that you're free to do anything..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old February 25th, 2007, 09:29 PM
GriNGo's Avatar
GriNGo GriNGo is offline
arrecho
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
Male
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Quito - Ecuador
Posts: 2,878
Thanks: 318
Thanked 218 Times in 165 Posts
Send a message via MSN to GriNGo
Thoughtful and emotional piece. I hope you can successfully endure this situation from here on. Best wishes go out to you and your entire family, specially little Ted.

- Francisco
__________________
"Nihil est in intellectu quod non prius in sensu" | SB | Portfolio | Soñando Despierto (visual blog) | DA (Profile) | EJERCICIOS DE COLOR | SUREÑOS!!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old February 25th, 2007, 09:47 PM
hurricane's Avatar
hurricane hurricane is offline
Björn Hurri
Level 16 Gladiator: Spartacus' Retiarii
Prefer not to answer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 4,261
Thanks: 25
Thanked 563 Times in 152 Posts
Moving picture!
Best wishes go out to you and your entire family!
__________________

-----------------------------------------------------------
BJÖRN HURRI | CONCEPT ARTIST & ILLUSTRATOR
-----------------------------------------------------------

MY PORTFOLIO | HURRICANES DAILY DOODLES '09
-----------------------------------------------------------
MY EXCLUSIVE SKETCHBOOK
-----------------------------------------------------------
VIKING: BATTLE FOR ASGARD
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old February 25th, 2007, 10:07 PM
Hao Wu's Avatar
Hao Wu Hao Wu is offline
Painting is Thinking
Level 2 Gladiator: Ordinarii
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 75
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
what a moving illustration! I wish u the best and ur boy, hope he gets well soon.
__________________
-=*My Website*=-

http://www.haosketch.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old February 26th, 2007, 12:49 AM
Slappy Moose Slappy Moose is offline
User is Banned
Level 1 Gladiator: Andabatae
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow... Thats a really sad painting. I am sorry, and I wish your son the best.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old February 26th, 2007, 02:10 AM
Craig Houghton's Avatar
Craig Houghton Craig Houghton is offline
Fantastic
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cheshire, CT
Posts: 647
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Craig Houghton
if anyone wants to help, go to http://www.capwiz.com/pfaw/dbq/offic...e=WI&print=yes and let them know that there are kids missing the window for treatment due to long waiting lists in their state.

state reps pay very close attention to their constituents, and fed reps (senate and the house) have their lines open to any of us.

-Craig
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old February 26th, 2007, 05:40 AM
ICH's Avatar
ICH ICH is offline
_Danir_Ivanovich_
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Venice, Italy
Posts: 475
Thanks: 14
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Send a message via MSN to ICH
Just a poor words to say you that i'm so much touched by your post.
Strong illustration.
__________________
Sorry for my bad english...
ch


Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old February 26th, 2007, 06:34 AM
Verithin's Avatar
Verithin Verithin is offline
Not sure if I'm the pencil or the sharpener...
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 378
Thanks: 5
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Good luck with your son man... and our thoughts are with you and your family. At least your son has his wonderful parents to help him through his life and for that he is blessed. I don't understand the American medical system at all, what it's priorities are and why they are that way (greed it seems) but I wish you all the best in navigating it and getting your son the help he needs.

You might also want to check out some of these sites for help:

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/c.php/18

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/forum2.php/53816/

http://www.impossiblecure.com/autism.html

I don't have any personal experience with the condition BUT I have had GREAT success treating other ailments with alternative therapies. It's worth a shot and I doubt the bill will be as high as the program you're hoping to get your son into.

All the best...
__________________
.

Wacomitis - fear of an empty bank account.

PORTFOLIO
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old February 26th, 2007, 08:30 AM
Mortron's Avatar
Mortron Mortron is offline
Registered User
Level 1 Gladiator: Andabatae
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Beautiful

Great image! Best wishes for your son and family.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old February 26th, 2007, 08:48 AM
Haxxxor's Avatar
Haxxxor Haxxxor is offline
Registered User
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stuttgart-Germany
Posts: 525
Thanks: 1
Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to Haxxxor
Ohh hard subject indeed.
Autism is really hard, I wish you and your wife as well as your son ted good luck.
Make the best out of it and maybe your son has a big talent which he can use to get out of this prison.
one never knows.

btw great image!

and yeah i will consider and send it to friends, no problem.
edit: i see that i cannot consider because this is for usa only
__________________
my sketchbook ---PAGE 6---

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old February 26th, 2007, 08:51 AM
Kan Muftić's Avatar
Kan Muftić Kan Muftić is offline
was Chupacabra
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
Male
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,365
Thanks: 590
Thanked 392 Times in 269 Posts
This is very moving...
And there's nothing wrong with having it in this forum.
Life's not only candies and lolipops.

Good luck,

Khan
__________________
My sketchbook

My Homepage
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old February 26th, 2007, 09:29 AM
Zynic's Avatar
Zynic Zynic is offline
Conceiver of crappy concepts
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden, Uppsala
Posts: 369
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via MSN to Zynic
Very strong and touching painting :-/
I wish you, your wife and your son good luck, and I truly hope that a proper solution will come along.
Stay strong!

Peace.
-M

edit: I've spread the link to most of my friends, and in some of my regular chatrooms.
Hopefully there will be some kind souls in there who can offer some help.
__________________
My sketchbook

Nivec's Sketchbook
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old February 26th, 2007, 09:40 AM
bRyaN bRyaN is offline
Official CA.org Pimp
Level 9 Gladiator: Hoplomachi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Q U E E N S, N Y
Posts: 1,452
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Send a message via AIM to bRyaN Send a message via MSN to bRyaN
my thoughts go out to you and your family...

i will post this on myspace to garner more attention...
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old February 26th, 2007, 10:06 AM
Malicious Panda Malicious Panda is offline
Registered User
Level 2 Gladiator: Ordinarii
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 51
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Malicious Panda
This is truly a sad thing. Of all your art I've seen, this is the the most emotional for me, probably because of the reality of things.

I wish for the best outcome for your son, and with this whole matter. You definitely have my support.
__________________
Oh gee.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old February 26th, 2007, 10:27 AM
amer-nazri's Avatar
amer-nazri amer-nazri is offline
Student
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 409
Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Your piece is very moving, and I pray for you and your family, and for Teddy. Keep fighting, and have faith.

amer-nazri
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old February 26th, 2007, 10:50 AM
DV8's Avatar
DV8 DV8 is offline
Mike Phillips
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Posts: 666
Thanks: 3
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via MSN to DV8
Dude,

sad story and I feel for you. My ex girlfriends son could have the same challenges and its a very complicated situation. I wish you the best- this is a great way to express yourself- keep it up- and I am sure it will help you get through whatever challenges await.
__________________
Mike Phillips
www.mikephillips.ca

updating my portfolio thread (wip) http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...89#post1642389
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:20 AM
se7en_'s Avatar
se7en_ se7en_ is offline
ghost in the machine
Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 977
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Send a message via AIM to se7en_
wow, Glen this is heavy stuff and I wish you and your son the best. I also commend you for the courage to post something like this publically, it takes alot of guts. It has to be a trying existance for both you and little Ted.

I watched a 20/20 a while back about a girl with autism that they taught to use a hand held device to talk to people. The thoughts she would put together were very detailed and funny. It was also amazing and scary to me that she was whip smart even though she couldn't tie her own shoes. The most touching thing though was the fact that her disablility didn't bother her. She didn't want anyones pity. Amazing girl.

I will write something to your govenor though I hardly know what to say. Good luck to you and you family.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:38 AM
Gangus's Avatar
Gangus Gangus is offline
Registered User
Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Madison
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thank you so much

wow I am truly speechless.

The true nature of this site has come out in force. You have touched me deeply with your response.

I am truly in all of your debt. Thank you so much.

Please tell any friends that you have to visit this post
(Only if you are comfortable doing so)

a heartfelt thank you to the people at Conceptart.org and it's members

Respectfully,
Glen
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:40 AM
Chermilla's Avatar
Chermilla Chermilla is offline
I Like Penguins...
Level 8 Gladiator: Thracian
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London Town, England
Posts: 1,112
Thanks: 12
Thanked 42 Times in 38 Posts
I symphasise with your situation. I know too well what it is like, and it is very frustrating when nobody is there to help. My little brother is disabled with severe learning difficulties and also has autism.

He never recieved any help when he was younger from the government or local authorities and my mother still struggles to get any help to aid her in caring for him. So I sincerley hope you're not on that waiting list for too long.

The artwork you've produced is really great and shows a lot of emotion, so good job on that.

Cx
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:45 AM
naomiful naomiful is offline
Professional
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
Female
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 332
Thanks: 23
Thanked 33 Times in 27 Posts
Send a message via AIM to naomiful
Like se7en, I really admire your courage to post such a personal and emotional subject here for everyone to see. As is exemplified by history over and over, one or small groups of people have moved mountains~! Best wishes to you and your family ~

And I believe it will be a much stronger piece once the boy's face and figure are much clearer to read as what it is!
__________________
SB - Blog
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:51 AM
Stark's Avatar
Stark Stark is offline
where the wild things are
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
Male
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Okinawa, Japan ala Marine Corps
Posts: 2,254
Thanks: 274
Thanked 146 Times in 106 Posts
Send a message via AIM to Stark Send a message via MSN to Stark
Gangus, I know the feeling whole heartedly. While I have no kids, my cousin is autistic. He'll learn to speak and behave as time goes on, trust me. My cousin is smart for being autistic, since it is not severe, but mild. He can remember old moves/game shows/shows, etc and can use the computer very well (probably why we have to go through like 2-3 a year?) Just give it time and encourage him, don't force. Also, attention and patience is a definite must.

About the picture, it is a very moving picture and it expels your, for lack of a better word, worrying. The composition is well done.
__________________
Stark's Darkness (sketchbook)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old February 26th, 2007, 11:52 AM
4rt-r41d's Avatar
4rt-r41d 4rt-r41d is offline
not drawing
Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: -.-
Posts: 801
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Strong image, and i wish you well.
it was a very moving read
__________________
my weekly sketchbook

SSG#39 Jove | smellykitty | Adam.Katsaros | suhsealyuh | MUNIZ | Oki
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old February 26th, 2007, 12:05 PM
Cookiedough's Avatar
Cookiedough Cookiedough is offline
Sugar Monstarrrrr
Level 10 Gladiator: Equites
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,649
Thanks: 151
Thanked 229 Times in 130 Posts
Wishing you all the best here. I can't sign any petition-thing, it only applies for US-citizens. Good luck with this.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old February 26th, 2007, 02:58 PM
bdfoster's Avatar
bdfoster bdfoster is offline
Registered User
Level 8 Gladiator: Thracian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 1,046
Thanks: 8
Thanked 85 Times in 9 Posts
Glen--

This is a forum about art, and, fundamentally, art is just another communication vehicle. That you have used your gifts to share something so personal reached out to me in a way that a simple post alone never could have. You should feel no guilt or shame for asking so little from a forum you have given so much to. Perhaps it's because I have a son just a bit younger than Ted, or perhaps just the story you have presented, but the tears certainly welled up when viewing your art.

I've sent the link out to anyone I can think would support it, and a few who might not. Hopefully things improve for you and your family, but my thoughts and prayers are definitely with you.

-Ben
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old February 26th, 2007, 03:38 PM
Brendan N's Avatar
Brendan N Brendan N is offline
you weren't suppose to read this.
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 2,164
Thanks: 130
Thanked 70 Times in 54 Posts
shit man ... I feel like a total asshole.

I'm really sorry to hear about your son's diagnosis. I really hope you get the needed help before time runs out, I really do. Best wishes to you and your family, especially your son.

The artwork is very poignant and very mature - extremely powerful piece. Thank you for sharing it.

- d.
__________________
Brendan Noeth

Reply With Quote
Reply

  ConceptArt.org Forums > ARTWORK > IT'S FINALLY FINISHED!!

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
no new posts