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ryan is officially kicking just slightly less ass than me during
my chance encounter with nickel creek...
Holy crap huge sock full of art update!
haha here's the full thorough review i promised you; man there's a lot of material here for me to review Anyways, this picture of the sketchjams would indicate that you guys were seemingly have a real cool time. I always enjoy the sketchjams if not for the end result for the psychological aspect of working on the same drawing together under high pressure time constraints... Plus there's the fact that you are revising / editing / trying to decide what you will do with each new pass of the books--> it's a total thrill i've got to say.
The St. George and the dragon is looking super, super nice ryan, thanks for posting it--> The dragon's head (looks like you had a really good time drawing it!) and the composition are particularly strong, though the horse's letgs need not be that dark... I believe that if they were white you'd have much less of a problem with the horse kind of blending into the dragon a little. one other crit would be that the horse's hoof should be like a cylinder on the ground ... it's at the wrong angle. It could come down a little further into the composition / be more outstretched to pull us into the dragon slaying frenzy. I guess that in planning this image you probably saw some of the AMAZING versions of this from history... it's always a blast to see what particular kind of dragon the artist of, say, 800 years ago, will come up with when given the opportunity to bust out some crazy demons
prior to that in the previous update, the studies page for the previously mentioned illo is looking quite nice... It seems like you are starting to expirement a good bit with your ink application??? This guy is totally a keeper---> the effect is so dark and yet he seems to be grinning? I like how i can't really see any outlines... it's like some blurry vision kind of situation. scary. cool--> more pen expiremtation--> is this some kind of marker you are roughing the blackground lines in with??? interesting that you'd say that you are tired of school--> maybe i can see some frustration in this, but your technique looks really good and confident to my eyes,
THE guggenZFREE for you, CHEAP4 them
Last edited by guggemmaneuver; April 28th, 2006 at 10:04 PM.
Those framed on the wall are looking mighty fine. The framing really gives a kinda pro feeling to them. My favourite of them would have to be "Bixby the blower". It seems the most thought out piece. The others, though they are really beautifully draw and renderend, seem kinda rigid. Maybe it's just me. Keep them photograps coming they are a lot of fun to look at. Where are all the "after twenty beers" pictures?
Jesus corpsefucking Christ now thats a boner popping update (as if the pics of you guys together wasn't hot enough)!!!!!1111oneoneeleven
Great to more pics of the crew you bastards! Andrew seems to be getting sexier by the day (you have long since reached your sexification threshold zebz)! Goddamit Montreal is gonna fuck me in every orifice i have and a couple of new pencil punctures(i call them love holes)...29 school days left and counting !
And then as if the photos weren't enough you digi-castrate me with the goddamn awesome pic update!
Lots of good stuffs, great designs and sketches, keep havin fun with em! Hope the concept portfolio works out for you, would love for you to land something with the company!
Life drawings arent as crappy as you say, although they arent as focused as your other work, but whatever, Im sure thinking about Andrew has been distraction enough for ya!
Pirate is great, wish you had finished it, his expressions are kickass!
PS now i know how you guys must feel, constantly scrolling waaaaay up to find the next pic i planned on talkin about is killer.
The knight illustration looks like fun, I'd like to see you play more with the armor design, character looks like he'd go for some over-the-top decorations and such junk!
Cool moleskins, you'll see though, guggen and me are gonna make a special no-moleskine-awesome-people club in Montreal and none of you pretentious fucks are gonna be allowed without... favours.
Self portrait looks sweet, great expression and lighting. Would have prefered if the inside of the mouth wasnt just a flat dark tone with some definition of teeth in shadow or something, and maybe push the look of scales more.
Goauche painting rocks, gotta get back into painting on acrylic-treated surfaces, always loved the feel of it.Got some great stuff going on and the prismas were a nice touch!
fuck me if that wasnt a long post.
Duuude I love your sketchyness style! your value's rock my socks! youve got an imagination big as the pothole out in our road! and thats pretty flippin big too. You like cover the page with all kinds of sketches, thats awsome, I need to try sketching out random stuff like that all over instead of one idea per page. : ) The life studies are brilliant! WE NEEED MOARRRR. peas. green peas.
Wow, after that huge of an update I was surprised not to have gotten more replies! Is that wrong of me to think? Well, it was great to hear from those of you who DID make it in!
jtheanswer: You really think I can get it? It would be a great way to get into the biz. Get my feet wet with experience. Thanks for the vote of confidence! And yea, he's a happy fantasy snake. They wanted the portrait to have a part of us in it too and you know how I love fantasy and making crap up so I just made up this random snake. People laughed a lot at it so I guess it worked!
pennington: Yo. I agree with your words man. Good stuff. And it's cool to find someone else on these boards who's a believer as well. Tho, I'm sure you see I'm an odd ball in the religious circle we hang in. They think I'm pretty liberal and my liberal friends think I'm pretty conservative. Ha! Balance. Life is about moderation, eh? It's fair tougher to stay walking the fine line in the middle rather than going extremely to the left or the right... others might call this riding the fence but... well, I don't mean it in that context. lol Don't get me discussing theology in here, man! lol You goin' to MTL? Thanks for the critz too, man. I need 'em.
Armando: Raph was my fav turtle because he cusses in the movie. Just kidding. But he does have a cool 'tude. Thanks for the comments and critz. Your right about my life drawings. I'm bored. And I'm tired. And I'm burnt out. I don't wanna go to class. I wanna start drawing cool things again. Not just naked ladies. But I'll miss it once I don't have it as often, I'm sure. Heh. Two more weeks and then I graduate... yay...
Placeboast: Yea, maybe I ought to loosen up my renders and lines more. I'm learning, man! Thanks for the helps. And yea, Fatty doesn't drink... and we don't get much drawing done after loads of drinking... lol Sooo... not a lot goin' on. Maybe in MTL you'll see some good 'fotos! Ha!
Guggen: You can plant my flag anytime.
GreenSock: I ain't callin' you sir anymore. lol Yea, long indeed. I don't have time to reply to that! lol But thanks! Ha! Yea, Andrew's sexy but... I take the cake. And screw your Anti-Moleskin... I don't wanna be in your club anyhow. But I will take the sexy man love for free. Ha! Thanks for all the comments and critz. You're right on! I like the pirate too. I'm gonna finish a concept of 'em prolly. We'll see. I'm pretty half assed about stuff. Y'know that. Thanks a lot. I love it when your bowl spray dribbles into my sketchbook with long posts! Much love.
Halos Chain: Ha. Thanks a lot man. I'm workin' on that imagination thing... here's a small update for ya!
Here's a smittle update for you guys. I'm goin' over to KingCoyote's place tonight to sketch with him and XSFX2000. Gooood times. So I must run. But yea, this is a pen and ink project I did for Illustration class. Re-do the St. George and the Dragon. So here's mine. Kinda turned out neato. Mostly brush pen tho, I'll admit. The regular dip pen was a pain and I think the tip I had was busted. I wanna try again. It was fun just loosely banging this out. I've gotta clean it up in PS more and than I'm gonna paint it as a full color illo! Heck yes, I am! Alright. I'm out. Peace. And please... holla' atcho' biznoyt. Word.
Sweet updates man! Especially the gas mask dude and the saint against snakes, reminds me of St. Peter.
The animal warrior person you were working on was pretty good, but the face seemed odd. You might want to check out some actual animal skulls to see how they're constructed, might make it more believable.
Mmm nice graphic feel I dont know if George and his horse should
look that pasive, I mean hes attacking a HUGE DRAGON, I think
he should have a more fierce face and so does the horse,
I might be wrong cause I dont know were are you going with this piece.
Aside that DUUUUDEEE huge leaps and bounds your doing now a days
dont losse momentum work work WORK!!!
Cool stuff here man! sb175.gif is kickass i like the graphic quality of the snake.
Looks like you had fun in the sketchmeet, "the milligan" cracked me up
I can't wait to do that again-
the time constraints, the wild suggestions-
drawing like crazy...
I ought to bring reference with me to help because my
anatomy sucks so much...
Okay- it's 4:56 in the am, besides running around all day
yesterday (Saturday)- sleeping in my clothes from 7pm-ish to
well past midnight- I'm a little behind... If I don't get those
scetches scanned & sent to you now, I'll get them to ya
in the afternoon- after church.
I just need to figure out just how tired I am...
Okay- email you or post them on my thread?
That sketch group get-together update looked like a lot of fun! TFK's Milligan pose is absolutely classic. Really enjoyed going through your sketchbook again, especially the recent huge batch that you were hoping would produce more replies. hehe. The self portrait cracks me up.... but I gotta say the pirate with folded arms is my favorite. Great gesture and expression and I love the contrast of thick contour lines and shading to the way it all fades out toward the bottom. Reminds me of the unfinished dwarf sketch on page 6.
Talk to you later!
HEY DOOD. SUP WITH YOU NOT UPDATING?!? MAN?! C'MON! But it's cool, I change my mind, the DOOM respects the busyness-ness. I'm waiting in anticipation for your TDome stuffs you did last week. I saw King's sketches but no Zebz. Totally missing the Z, MAN. And I was looking at the illustration of St. George last week but didn't comment because I didn't want to leave without a crit, but I got one now. I don't know if it's too late to change, but the poses of the figures are fine; just that it seems the horse is almost on a paper dragon. It might be the texture of the dragon or the placement of the horses hooves though. Either way, WE NEED A COLORED VERSION. And hopefully you're busting your ass with graduation without any troubles. Goodluck, and cheers.
hey man, long time no check your book, it seems you're having a lot of fun. The group pics are dope, it looks like a lot of fun.
Your art is getting stronger everyday, keep it fun.
Whoa dude. It's like whoa.
Especially that guache portrait, that shit is hot. You say it was matte-mediumed, how thick were you layin down the guache? I haven't painted in guache in a long while, but I remember it bein kinda in between acrylics and water color. Did it soak in at all after being matte-mediumed or were you gobbing it on? Anyhow you did it, it looks stellar. It all looks figgin stellar. Great work dude, Hella-inspiring.
i really like the updates and your indepth responses to everyon that speaks. i hope the best for your future man.
ooo life studies are good and i like that Leonardo, but with it was Donatello.. he's so much cooler... well Michaelangelo is pretty cool too and Raphael is ... gosh i love all the Ninja Turtles!!
keep it up and never give up!!!!
He says he's working on his website... We'll see in the morning.
He's also trying to pussy out of Fantasy Figure Friday this week...
Slacker. (It's all out of love man.)
hey man, SWEET update. the sketches look great,your muscle anatomy is very nice, and the pen expirament that you did looks pretty cool. Also, i'm diggin the characature lookin things. keep it coming man. P.S. it looks like you had a great time with the guys. Andrews a great guy, dont ya think. peace.
No stars? Are you bitches blind?
I like the way your brain works. Great pencils.
Staylor: Agreed, man. I need some serious animal work. I've been telling myself that for weeks now. Heh. Thanks for stoppin' in!
maxetormer: Huge? Heh. I don't know about all that! I'm trying tho, man. You're right about the graphic. I need to think those things through more. It's probably a bit too late now. I'll see if I can't revise a bit in the color process. Thanks, Max!
InkFish: It's always blast hangin' with CA guys. I don't know why we didn't do it sooner!
Loyd: I still haven't posted those, dang it. How's your Rogue comin'? Mine seems too generic. Grr.
Dutton: Thanks, man. Yea, all my sketches are pretty unfinished... lol I got my book back so whenever your ready just give me a shout!
Zord: Thanks for the critz, mate. I suck. Just say it. No, your right. Hopefully with more render and color it'll pop more. We'll see. How's your portfolio comin' along? Mine's sloowww. Lots goin' on with graduation and movin' out. I'll hit you up. Drop a line on my cell. If you don't get me than leave a message.
Diego: Thanks! Your rock, D!
Badger: You're right. I'll have a ballsy update soon. Promise.
Andy P: Yo. Hey, man. No guache needed. This was a technique a teacher showed us in illustration. I took some illustration board and just threw down some of that gel medium stuff on it. When it dried it gave me this textured clear stuff. Than I did a sort of wash from cool to warm and stuff and than you just sort of carefully pick up paint using water and your brush and apply a bit of opaque here and there. It doesn't ever soak into the board. It just sits on top of it. I could still go back to this painting right now and pull the paint right off the board. It's great. But you can fix it eventually and that stuff won't come up. The opaque areas really take the prismas really nicely too. Give it a whirl! It's helped me understand painting quite a bit. Especially because I have no concept of painting! Ha! Glad you liked it.
MattGamer: Yo, bro. That rhymed. lol Glad you like my stuffs. I try to return the comments with responses of my own. It's conversation, YO. Yea, Raph was the best turtle IMO. He's the coolest. Got that attitude. I think I'm gonna do a turtle piece when all this craziness settles down. THROW BACK!
SirGreenSock: In your pants...
Tef: lol Thanks.
Guggen: I love you, don't sweat it. I'm around, I'm around.
KingCoyote: I swear I'm only half slacking! Ha! The site should be up by the weekend. I want to get s'more pieces done first. The finished section just looks lame. lol More color is definately needed. BTW, I'm going to FF. We'll discuss it lata.
Mitch: Thanks. Yea, Andrew's great. Haven't heard from him in like forever tho. Loser.
Loyd: Thanks for getting my back.
Dirty C: Thanks, mate! Man, less than a month away. You'd better make time for some Zebz, Sketchin' and Alcohol! Appreciate the comments, man.
SummerPudding: Dude. Thanks for postin' in here!! Yea, I'm bummed about there bein' no more stars for Zebz. I guess the powers that be pulled the plug on me. But seeing as how you think I'm worthy of a couple makes me happy. Much appreciated, man. Can't wait to see ya throw down in MTL! Look fer' me! Peace.
That said, here's a small update for y'guys. I've been busy trying to get the portfolio stuff together and with finals week and graduation crap. Plus I have to move in a couple weeks. Not a lot of fun. As of right now all my school is done. I just have to walk on Saturday. So I've got a little bit of time to work on my portfolio here and there. Also I want my website up by the end of the weekend. We'll see. I've been saying that forever. lol I'm serious this time tho! Promise! Ha. So I leave you with a couple shots of WIP's I'm workin' on. I'm really starting to dig digital painting these days. I think I'm starting to get decent at it. Yea! The first is a crop of a ugly, deformed ogre guy and the second is some color work on that St. George deal. I have much more to post but it'll have to wait until the site goes live. It takes longer to update a SB than you might think! lol Thanks again for the helps and comments. You guys rule. MTL is less than a month away, bizitches!! BTW, crit these a bit... I'm starting to think more and more about color these days. See ya on the flipside of graduation!
I must say I love the color with your st. George and monster. The monster has some tight textures on it. Very good stuff man.
Very nice, keepin busy in my pants I see. Ogre guy has some sweetass colours and textures on im, but his arm and hand arent nearly as well developed as the rest, find it really detracting...
George is looking glorious, I'd either make sure to add at least some light texture to him and his horse or tone down the dragon a bit, detail levels of the two-three of em should be about the same, dragon stands out quite a bit right now.
Firstly--> Congratulations on your Graduation Zebz!
I think this means you get a better place in the slop line at the citadel, AND also, *special treat* conjugal visits from the WENCHES OF DOOM™!
I haven't seen any evidence of this in terms of faq on the rating system, but it seems that they increased the number of votes necessary to give someone a rating... if you sort the SB's by ratings then there aren't very many that have them... in fact, they're all on the first page. I was a little freaked at first, but whatever...
what sock said about s†. George, plus george and his horse are still looking very graphic and 2D like vector and the dragon is looking so painterly and 3D like raster. give that horse and george some values too!
where's Fastidious sketchfiends... in your signature? hehehe keep it up and i hope your move goes well. back out to the country??? You will be able to really focus on your art there i think. happened that way for me once.
hope all is well ryan, eagerly anticipating the big CA meetup!
Last edited by guggemmaneuver; May 12th, 2006 at 01:42 AM.
The website is looking pretty bitchin... (Ha-ha Suckas'! I got to see it before any of you!) I was just thinking about it, and figured I'd rub it in everybodies face that I live like twenty minutes from you...
Had fun at FFF tonite... man that guy was creepy!
Ummm... have fun at the ole' graduation tomorrow. If you want to come over afterward, that would be cool. I have hella lot of stuff to do tho. It's time to start getting my crap together for the portfolio so Joel doesn't cornhole me. Ha-ha!
'kay... That's enough for now, I guess. Thanks for looking at all my old crap tonite too!
I'll talk at you later!
P.S.don't trip on the stage... That would suck.
http://ryanbowlin.com/Sketchbook/uglyconceptWIP.jpg now this ones cool, the colours really suit your sketchy style, great work bud
hope your grad thing went smoothly!
I'm liking the way the St. george vs Dragon picture is going. One thing i'd like to comment is that watch out for the highlights going too bright.
The ogre you posted above looks great
Ryan, now an official "Doom-sir" since graduation, an update?! WHAT?! HOLY SHITSAUCE. And Joel's right man, conjugal visits from Doom Wenches... i've never experienced any myself but YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. But yes, it's good to see you push through the work with tons of things going on, the portfolio's going to be worth it... just you wait. You don't believe us now but it'll be worth it... YOU'LL SEE, THE DOOM'S GOT YO' BACK SON! And oh yea, the color stuff is terrific, nice textures, like the poo stains on Nik's walls.... AHAHAHAHA. And I WILL give another try at the phone sometime, as long as YOU ANSWER. But, 25 days now! 8)
good digis, really like them. A few crits. With the ogre, there are some little problems. Such as, you have seem to put a bit of detail into the head, and not that much into the body. Try to make it balanced and equal. I actually dont have any other crits for the other picture, that means its looking great!
Keep it up and i hope the website goes live and i hope that the end of school goes EXCELLENT!
Awsome sketches. I like how you render in pencil and you're digi paints are great. Keep rocking, and congratulations on graduation!
man i tried to get everything to load up this time and still it fucked up and loaded like half.. damn dial up hah.. but what i saw was friggin awesome dude.. seeeing what you guys do at the sketch group up in those pics make me wanna go more now.. sorry i couldnt go the other night.. but youll have to have one soon this week haha.. ill be there.. but rockin stuff dude keep it up.. cant wait to jam with you dudes!!
Hey man! Can you believe they put us against each in other in the T-dome? Wtf? Haaa..I;m sure you guys will breeze right through me...no problem.
It'll be the beginning of my end on CA.org. I think I am going to the workshop - just getting my stuff together last minute, so hopefully I can pull it off. It'll be great to meet you.
Sketches are looking good here...I can tell you are working hard. Never can get too much life-drawing
awesome art and killer progress dude!
keep at it !
BJÖRN HURRI | CONCEPT ARTIST & ILLUSTRATOR
MY PORTFOLIO | HURRICANES DAILY DOODLES '12
MY EXCLUSIVE SKETCHBOOK
VIKING: BATTLE FOR ASGARD
THE OTHER BROTHERS
U have come a long way in a short time <> the path never ends but the journey makes life worth while
Won't see you all in Montreal <> Jason didn't invite me <> maybe next one
Man, you've got alot of great stylized pieces in here. The perspective on the subjects is great. DELIVER MORE FINISHED PIECES ZOMG ZOMG! That pen work is great
He who asks is a fool for five minutes,
but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
one more thing, i would like to congratulate you on your website, its looking quite professional, good job!
really diggin the creativity of your sketches, and your drawing of Andrew isnt that bad, just seems a bit rushed, anyways i hope the vault keeps that mind of yours cranking out that crazy inspiration that allows you to draw those awesome looking characters you keep coming up with.
"KEEEE-YYYAAAAAAHHHHHH B!TCH!!!!" - Ed Wuncler III, The Boondocks
It's was about a hundred years ago I commented that your drawings were looking kinda rigid. Your rendering skills are excellent and all those drawings were looking really good. I was merely commenting on the poses and the fact that all the characters were looking straight at the "camera". It gave a kinda not planned out feeling to them. Would like to see an update on the dragon and and knight thingy.
What is it? One update a season?
"Beliefs are rules for action"
"Knowledge is proven in action."
"It's use is it's meaning."
Yeah, no kiddin. Where ya been?! I'm still up for that trade!
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't been updating much as of late. I've been super busy with other stuff like going to Montreal and trying to get a job. I also moved back in with the parents for the time being and they live too far out to get any sort of good internet. I can't seem to upload to my server out there for some reason so I'd have to bring my stuff to work and upload here. So updates will be sort of here and there I guess. Hope you'll accept my apologies! I did get my website up if you guys are interested. Check it out at : www.ryanbowlin.com and let me know what you think. It's pretty basic but I guess it works.
In other news I'm currently awaiting to hear if I got an internship at this game company in St. Louis that is working on a MMORPG. I had my interview yesterday and it seemed to go pretty well. So that's the big thing I'm lookin' at right now. More info on that later... or not... if I don't get it. lol It would be a great way to gain some experience tho and get my foot in the door. Also, Montreal was amazing. Great to meet everyone and see how people work. Definately an eye opening experience.
That said, I'll have to bring the comment replies later. I'm at work. But until then here's a few crappy things I've tossed on my website. Some of it you've seen already but I finally had the chance to get better pics of it for the site. I've got butt loads more to scan and update with tho, so Fatty's right. Hope you guys are doin' well and I really appreciate the support. Take care. Oh yea, and I've gotta get pumpin' more on this Thunderdome too so I may not see ya again for a while! lol
Ok so I lied... here are the replies...
Atlas2900: Thanks, man. I think my Photoshop skillz are increasing!
Staylor: It’s up! Check it out!
GreenSock: Yea, it’s still in the start up phase… I still have a lot of work to do on this one. BTW, I’m really sorry I let you down by not drawing on Gugg’s head with your grease pencil. I was just afraid of the fury of Gugg! I’m sure you understand. I’m just not as hardcore as you, I guess. Lol
Gugg: Conjugal visits?! SWEET. ‘Nuff said. Thanks for the critz and yea, these are still in unfinished form here. Tho the finished ogre was rushed and has butt loads of problems too. Oh well. Good chats with ya, bro. Definitely looking forward to getting together again, man. I hope you’re doin’ well.
KC: Now you live like 40 minutes away from me… lol Hope that Thunderdome is comin’ along. I have a ton of work to do on mine. EEK!
InkFish: Thanks, man! I’ll watch that light areas!
Zord: I miss you. Call me anytime, man. Just bring a bottle of Jack with ya.
AndyP: You crack me up, dude. Thanks for the congratz. Now lets see if I can do anything with it, eh? I definitely need to stop by your book. Hope you’ve updated so I can down s’more of that tasty stuff you dish out.
Pennington: Thanks, bro.
Qxzi: Thanks for the critz and comments. Definitely something to keep in the back of my head. Also, glad you liked the site. It ain’t much but it’s something.
KillerNapkins: Don’t worry, man. We’ll get your stuff together soon and get our draw on. Just give me a call or drop me an email. We’ll get this worked out soon. Later, bro.
Loomer: Man it was a pleasure to meet you at the workshop. Nice to know the man personally who’s going to be kicking my ass in the Thunderdome anyhow! Ha! I’m really looking forward to seeing what you cook up. Take care man… oh and how did your portfolio review go?
Mentler: Yea, we’ll hopefully see you at the next one! Thanks for the comments and pushing me to endeavor on!!
Klinesmoker: Heh, thanks man.
This1: Thanks. I don’t know about awesome but I am pretty certain about the crazy part. Thanks for stoppin’ by man. Kind words.
Placeboast: You’re exactly right. I’ve been hearing that a lot lately. Time to get to work, eh? Thanks for the reminder, man.
John T: Maybe they’ll be Babe the Big Blue Ox cereal someday and you can create it and I’ll put this on the box for you!
Asoir: Heh, Fatty’s the man.
Armando: Pretty much.
XSFX2000: Yo. Sorry I haven’t seen ya in a while. Been busy. We’ll catch up soon tho. Peace, man.
SomeGuy: You should check back more often! There’s no tellin’ what Zebz doin’!!
Masterpug: Sorry I’ve let you down, man.
Dutton: I’m still up for it too! PM me!
Fatty: In time young padawan… or however you spell it… lol Thanks for holding me accountable. Hope you’re well and enjoyin’ the landscapin’!
Tetsuo: Yea… well…. I saw you too…. Horrible Ninja.
Max: Barely. LoL Sorry I haven’t been a very good sketchbook group buddy. I’m gonna get better someday hopefully. Sorry, mate. Hope you’re well. Thanks for the push.
Looking very nice indeed Zeb. Brilliant pencils.
Heh, slow day at work?Ok so I lied... here are the replies...
hey Zebzfree, how you doing!?!?!? how's things? you've improved too much I think.. hehe.. those pencil rendering are superb. Love the third one, that's wicked mate. I do think that dude's torso bit is a little too rough though, not well defined as compared to your other drawings, his rib cage bits. nice solid work nonethless and hope you are doing well mate! cheers, Min