I am still undecided on the direction I will take. Leave this torn battle ground in search of a fresh start or to stay in hopes that people will return.
I am still undecided on the direction I will take. Leave this torn battle ground in search of a fresh start or to stay in hopes that people will return.
Last edited by Havok Reed; March 6th, 2013 at 03:28 PM.
“If people knew how hard I worked to get my mastery, it wouldn't seem so wonderful after all.”
Gotta admit, I love this place and would hate to see it go, but every time one of these dramas happens, a bit more of the life blood leaks out as people drift off elsewhere. I remember what it was like before the 2009 drama, and it was really kind of magical - this place was hopping then, everybody who was anybody was here and active, it was an exciting place to be. Even though I wasn't a member very long before the drama hit, I fell in love with the place during that time. Then I was away for a stretch of time in 2008-2009 due to real life events, and when I came back the atmosphere had changed and a lot of people were gone - it was still pretty cool, but not quite as fun or exciting. And with each succeeding drama, more people vanish, and the place gets a little emptier and a little less fun.
I'd hate to see CA die, but I've started trying to find out where the people who left have gone, in case CA just wastes away completely (or in case the site goes down again like it did in 2009.)
Well, forums are a bit outdated medium, so is IRC or mailing groups for that matter. There are some places where those mediums still live, but its marginal and mostly. Im quite fresh to the forum, a few months at most, so Im not emotionally bound to it, and I have a fresh look. I believe that there are real pros here, and thats just great... But Im checking the forums daily, and there isnt much discussion, advice, tips, tutorials etc, mostly its just sketchbook updates and similar. For other tasks, like learning, asking questions or posting work for critique, there are better tools. The problem with them is that they lack proper pro community.
For example, ill pick up the topic of learning, advice and asking questions, since Im a newbie myself, barely got my feet wet in digital painting and drawing. I tried to look through the forum, but I think we all know how HARD it is to find something using forum search. Nobody actually gives topics searchable titles. And once you find a proper topic, you have to read through 22 pages of discussion, which may, or may not, end in a conclusion.
Please compare this to the Stack Exchange platform. Its a platform made by IT engineers, who wanted to have a place to get answers to their professional questions fast, effectively, accurately... A great community emerged, the site engine was refined. And its a wonderfull platform now. Almost any IT question you type into google will throw up a question on the stack exchance site (called stackoverflow, superuser, server fault or other, depending on the question. There are stack exchange sites for different specialisations) in the top 5 results. And usually that question is actually answered in an up-to-date, competent manner! Thats because the whole site mechanics have been design with the sole intent of making Questions and Answers work properly - something that forums were never meant to do. (More on StackExchange: http://stackexchange.com/about)
So actually when I have a question related to art, I post it on the stack exchange site for art and graphic design(They can be found here: http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.c...?tab=questions). Simply because it has an engine thats very effective at bringing me high quality, condensated and understandable answers over a relatively short period of time.
Sadly, that particular site has a problem - most design and art pros dont know and care about it, its mostly known to IT guys such as myself. thats why most questions and answers over there are quite technical and web design/photoshop technicalities oriented. Perhaps my questions could have better answers, but the site lacks pros in ints community (for now!)
The story is the same for other usages of this forum that arent purely discussion. Forums were made and designed to enable us to discuss. But if you want to simply post your work, facebook may be better. More people will see it, you will be recognised more easily, you can gauge your popularity using the "likes" system. There are specialistic sites for almost any thing we are currently doing on this forum apart from discussing.
As long as those sites dont have pros in their communities, this forum will live in its current form. But once the pro community becomes aware and accustomed to those other sites, I think this forum will be only a place for discussion, and not much more.
Aw man, this shit takes me back. You guys remember the meltdown of December '09? That was crazy. I was actually wondering when the next drama-fest was going to happen. The saga is never-ending.
People become disillusioned, they leave, they go to a different forum or fall out altogether, and CA limps on with a strange half-forgotten memory of everyone and everything that came before. New people join, we talk about art, and for a little while it seems like 'old times' until the next big drama-rama comes 'round the bend and brings up everything the community was trying to ignore. As long as Manley is tied to this community, which he always will be, there will be a reoccurring conflict. You either stay because you love the community, knowing that it is fundamentally flawed, or you go.
To everyone who's leaving: God speed, you guys < 3
I don't post here very often but I've lurked here on and off for around ten years. Something interesting about CA is that there is always huge traffic even when there's not a lot of posting (sketchbook forum always has hundreds of viewers and is always very active). So even if it's not like it was in "the old days" I think that any suggestions of impending doom are greatly exaggerated. I wonder why people are comparing CA to the way it was five years ago instead of to the other art forums currently available - that would make more sense. Of course a forum will be quieter than it was before new-fangled types of social networking like Tumblr and Facebook exploded, but I don't think there are any concept art forums bigger than CA, so even if it gets quieter again for a while, how could it die anytime soon? Having said that, I'd be sad to see the community become quieter and I hope that people are able to separate the community spirit of CA and any personal actions by its admin, and that some of the people who have left reconsider. People leaving only hurts the other artists in the community, it doesn't punish any perceived wrongdoing by an individual.
As an aside, I'm wondering why no one in these threads talking about other forums has mentioned the CGSociety/CGTalk forum - it's another big and active concept art/illustration forum like CA with lots of professional artists in it and has very high-profile competitions. Maybe I'm more familiar with it because I also work with 3D and it has a large focus on 3D as well as 2D art, but there is a pretty even split between the two. I always considered CGS and CA to be the big two players, am I the only one under that impression?!
I really can't share all the "forums are outdated" and "you can't find anything useful here anyway".
Forums are not outdated, nor have they become meaningless. It has simply been the case that many forums which had no reason to exist in the first place but existed because it was the only medium around, have been submerged into fb/reddit/twitter you name it. Sharing funny images is just not as easy on a forum. But to say forums are a dying art-form- I beg to differ. Just google any kind of special interest, and you will find large and small, old and new forums with active communities. Are forums smaller than display sites like dA and cghub? Well, yes- it is in the nature of their differences.
Secondly, people love speaking about the GoldenAge of anything, and "back in the days" it was always better anyway. There is no objective measure of this. Many artists that used to be here have left, but many have joined to. The Sketchbook forums are alive with people, and the CC Centre is just an amazing place, considering that with the amount of "how do I draw" threads in any other community it would consist of 80% "we have to do something about this" rubbish. The CA community of helpful people is big enough for people to cycle through, sometimes very active critiqu-ers are gone for a few months, but then they're back.
Stuff like this is meant to turn into an internet-turf-fest, and hopefully it gets resolved. But I can't really share the doomday-sentiments. I think this is all in the heat of the arguments.
Hey guys, I am fairly new here and all this drama stuff doesn't really bother me as long as I can use the art forum as the art forum. My only question is. The people who are leaving, where are they going? I want to join all the populated art forums so I don't miss out on anything.
- Sketchbook - bit.ly/17Q1lKR
I found this place less than a year ago, and It's been awesome. So far, I haven't found another art community that's so intent on improvement. Things like DA and Tumbler are fine for displaying artwork, but they're pretty useless when it come to getting actual critiques. I didn't realize that the forum was ever more active than it currently is...
Now I'm kinda depressed. I don't want this site to die.
what artist could ask for more than to give life and breath to the visions that they see chasing in their heads? I feel like there's a lot of bitter undertones floating about with massive black, conceptart, and the artist involved in the last few years, but they've all, as people, first and foremost have shown that no matter how desperate the striving of an artist can be, its still possible to make your way in the world doing what you feel naturally compelled to do. so thanks to everyone that dares to dream.
Speaking more directly. I don't think critique of Manley is purposeful because that's what everyone seems to think this is about. He's just one guy. Could you honestly handle that much responsibility? ...or even want to after being trolled by an endless sea of unknown faces? What's between him and Rigney doesn't concern me. I plan on being an artist for life, regardless whether CA is still around; that doesn't concern me. What is everyone trolled Dave Rapoza for being absent on the Dagger's page? or Silverman? who the fuck cares?
Lets be fair and consider all that this place, this space has offered fellow artists? We all want to be the best artists be can be and without US these kinds of places are nothing. If there's anything I could offer to say to you guys to not give up hope yet in CA, I would. People believing in something is what can make it happen. You want a better place than this? -then MAKE it that better place! ;D
This community platform (powered by vBulletin) that Jason Manley and crew have slaved over for years gets nothing but appreciation on my side.
The recent events doesn't change that amount of appreciation, but I do hope the business side gets worked out.
Resources spread out thinly and in quick manner? only Jason would know that.
But I don't think ripping off artists in the long run was his initial intentions - Just needs better accounting, perhaps.
Kenpai to all fellow creatives helping each other out in the crit section and pushing each other on in the sketchbooks. <-- That's the energy of C.A. and the good people around it.
I don't give if the older members and the top shits stay or leave. New pros will fill in, former newbs get better and as result share their talent to help others. People come and go. I may think this way because I am satisfied with these forums for the technical stuff and I won't particularly miss anyone. You may differ but this is my opinion.
I use CA because it has a very good the forum layout. It's very straight forward, neat, user friendly, and wide enough to engage larger pictures. I never got sick of it nor did it ever give me any issues. It's not tacky, nor hard to navigate, nor overall obnoxious like many other forums out there. Some places are bloody murder to even just look at. I would hate to have to move somewhere else just because it's "the new thing".
I apologize for the bad wording but by "how will the forums be funded", I meant who. I meant that if we want to run the forums (Manley or not), we need a treasury that people can be confident handing their money to.
What I am wondering is, if not Manley, who will manage the pay to help run the site if it's not for the downloads? Yeah some folks are all, "I am not buying videos, I am just going to use the forum so I am not supporting x/y/z person at all!" But see, nothing is free and the money to run the forums is all coming from somewhere (the downloads, correct me if I am wrong).
Ian, I believe people would return if the things you mentioned in your OP were done. When things are good, people come. Convenience, exposure, and stability is valued by professionals. So, if CA had those again, there is nothing necessarily keeping people from returning. CA's design is very convenient (in my opinion). Exposure? I don't know but there seems to be many people mentioning how popular CA is. But, stability and reliability is the issue. I am not pinpointing exactly who, but there are communication issues going on and someone (or many people) need to get their shit together.
Hopefully the forum can go on.
Last edited by CLANLESS; March 7th, 2013 at 06:54 AM. Reason: misspell
Me too, it would be such a shame for everyone to lose their sketchbooks.
sb most art copied to page 1
Weapons of Mass Creation 2011 ::: Add your favourites!
facebook: Alface Killah
I love CA. I don't want to have to find somewhere else to hang out, get to know a whole new bunch of cool people, find the same level of information, start a new sketchbook... Yeah, I think that last would be beyond me because my sb here is a record of my progress, from the beginning of my attempt to improve my skills to a pro level. There's nowhere else where that kind of record would be relevant.
I've checked out a few other art sites over the years, and joined one or two - Wet Canvas is like Blackspot said, way too full of nicey nicey folks for my liking, and CGhub doesn't have much of a community though it does look pretty - but none of them caught my interest like CA. So this is where I hang my hat and where I plan on staying unless armageddon sends me away.
As for forums being outdated? Maybe for people who just want a quick fix of pics or a easy to forget soundbite, they might be. But not for me and not that I've seen. So I don't agree with that either.
I'm actually starting to wonder if this model is simply not capable of meeting our needs, that there needs to be some kind of subscription plan in place where users can regularly give back to the community to keep it running.
If I remember correctly, the drama in '09 was also about money. Jason announced that the site was in financial peril and would possibly go down forever if we didn't raise money by purchasing the educational downloads provided. We tend to remember the user bans and thread deletion the most, but the initial conflict was about finances. Now we're hearing accusations that the artists who provided that downloadable content, which we were being guilted into buying to keep the site running, were not receiving their promised payment.
I can't help but wonder if there is a connection here. But, considering how the '09 conflict was 'resolved' (and by that I mean - not at all), I highly doubt we will learn anything more about the details of is really happening here.
Last edited by dierat; March 7th, 2013 at 07:23 PM.
I've been on about the donation button for ages. Also the job section needs to be put back where it was; the temporary one is buzzing. After 2009 and when the site was down I looked around a lot and none had that feel that CA has/had went I first joined and still has.
I'd donate and/or subscribe. It would encourage me to be more active. This place is undervalued.
Maybe have a system where the more art you post and contribute to sketchbooks, crits, etc the less you pay, the more you ask about how to hold a pencil (or hang in the lounge) the more it costs you? Or have Black Spot assess everyone's monthly contribution and assess individual charges accordingly. I'm sure she's not doing much else :-)
Spam is well down, but I'm using that extra time to make art. I don't want to see subscriptions. There are other things coming that'll help - sorry, no clues. First things first - clarification and then go forward.
I have a rather simplistic view of all this I know, but the financial dealings in here are nothing to do with me at all, and for me to comment without all the pertinent details would be crass and stupid of me and I wont do it.
I come here for the community, I love all of you people you have helped me in so many ways I cant tell you, and along the way I have come to think of many of you as friends.
So as long as this forum is open I will be here!
not for the management,
not for financial gain,
but for you lot.
The simple reason is this I dont think I could do this without you all, and I am not sure that I would want to either and that is a rather sad truth.
All the very best to each and every one of you, and I look forward to enjoying your art, see you around the forum.
A great kind hearted lumbering bullock
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209918 = my Sketchbook
I doubt the subscription thing would be such a hot idea. Donations are better. I know quite a few other forums that are run by donations and they work pretty good because the community is willing to pay.
Is it possible to clear more space by deleting some stuff, or are things forever in cyberspace? For example it might retrieve extra space if users can delete their own accounts, if the mods were able to delete spam accounts (rather than just banning), delete threads per request, and delete some unused forums/
Last edited by CLANLESS; March 7th, 2013 at 06:28 PM. Reason: grammar
I want to delete all members who join and don't post - say 30 days. That would remove about 100k of non-participating members. They can always rejoin later. It would also cut sleeper spam.
That's a pretty good idea. (deleting users with 0 post count) I changed usernames recently and found that a few names I wanted to switch to had been taken by people who made accounts in 2006 and hadn't posted a single thing.
Anyway I really hope the forum doesn't get hurt too bad with everything that's going on. I'm gonna sit tight, ride out the storm and hope that everything gets resolved for the good of the community.
I'd gladly donate monthly here. A couple of buck here and there for this worthwhile service and to be able to talk shit and learn some nifty stuff. I'm literally on here every day, and have been for the past 6 or so months.
The question is though, what is the cost of running the servers/domain?
Subscription won't work at all! Those who regularly use the site and services would most likely be happy to pitch in a couple of bucks, however having that responsibility to do so would just end up in crap.
As for art forums and forums as a whole, I think they'll forever be around.
That sense of community is great, sure services like Facebook/Twittter ect have soared up; however I don't feel there is that feeling of consistency in terms of critique and the likes.
To me, art on Facebook and Twitter is more like DeviantArt, all you get for critique is "OMG, I LUV IT!!! xOxO"... All that bullshit; it means nothing. Rarely do you get critique or any form of intelligence in the forums.
I came to CA from DA; I lurked CA for months without membership and then joined because the art style and professionalism was what I was after.
I do still lurk DA forums time-to-time; I try to help people with my experience; however it's usually full of 20 posts of almost the same thing (eg. What tablet/laptop do I get/macVpc/Why do my drawings suck...) The moderation there is rather... Bad IMO.
So, I think I'm going to stay here and keep lurking.
Why? Because I am a N00b! I finished my animation studies last year and am now doing a visual arts course. I have heaps to learn and this place is just one hell of a resource.
Yes, I need to upload a sketchbook and whatnot, I just need to have the time to scan/photograph my work, along with finish my own site and this client work...
All in all, it's sad what has happened as of late; I have no idea what this place used to by like, but I'm here now and it is still pretty active/awesome... I just want to learn and end up becoming one of those Level 17 Glads with the mad skills who can teach those younger.
I figure it's part of leaving a legacy to your name in this world, you became awesome, you helped the noobs, and then they thank the pro's who helped them get there. ∞
Also, is it possible to have our usernames changed?
Ever just woken up and gone "shit, does the world around me exist"?
Yes we can have our usernames changed.
I'm really finding interesting this discussion on whether the forum format is on its way to death. Death doesn't mean no forums exist of course, just that they're underused to the point that they no longer become a driving force in the digital art world. I too have noticed a lot of people have left, and haven't really moved onto another forum. Mostly it's posts to facebook and tumblr. But you don't get the same interactivity there. the same group atmosphere. The same types of discussion. Being a bit older, I've now seen entire ways of doing things just up and vanish, and I'm curious if people feel that it's possible that the future of digital art will become less big anonymous group oriented and more about a close circle of friends oriented. This can be kind of dangerous, because if you're only asking for critiques from your fans, they may not be terribly brutal, whereas you get a little more critique when you put up something for a group of strangers to see. How will this affect the art we make? Will there be stagnation? Some really interesting consequences here, thanks for a reallly interesting discussion so far.
I would recommend to justify a subscription based service you have access to all the tutorial vids like netflix, but under the recent context that's a nonstarter. Another idea that would have worked is web hosting for portfolios. Another thing that could have worked is donating art for an annual spectrum type book. Gonna be a while before anybody opens their hearts and wallets to Jason.
He is handling this better than the last debacle though. No bans, censorship, lockdowns or blackouts. He's been smart enough to keep his mouth shut rather than jamming his shot foot in it. So if he could just pass on the leadership to somebody responsible and honest enough within the community to run things. That would make things square.
As for subscriptions, there would have to be a pretty good incentive to subscribe, otherwise nobody will... On DA I pay for a subscription so I can avoid the obnoxious ads on the free site, and when DA did a poll asking why people had subscriptions, that was the #1 reason for most other people as well. So I guess that's an option - free site with ads, paid site without? (Not a pretty option, but it does work.) If not that, then there would have to be some really appealing perks for a paid subscription.