is it unreasonable to ask to see proof?
I also want to see some evidence from Brad (some emails transcripts would easily solidify his case), however, so far all we have is Manley saying TAD's been handling accounts for 3 years, John English saying he doesn't know anything about it, and Ron Lemen saying the downloads aren't associated with TAD at all.
At least the "public opinion" has their story straight.
as i've been on CA a long time ago, even though not much in recent years, i'll post my thoughts, that i already posted on FB.
wow, amazing. drop a couple grams of red meat in the water and all the piranhas rush.
i'm taking neither side, i don't even know the guy who posted his note, but whatever happens, it should have stayed between him and CA.O or TAD or whatever. i've known jason a long time and, if i'm the only one doing it, i believe he wouldn't be the one directly responsible for brad's problems. afaik, jason created CA.O, that's one thing, but he is not the check holder at TAD, even tho brad ended up mostly arguing with him.
anyway, they should resolve this person to person, i don't care personnally but i wanted to react to the mad posts i read here, from people who are not involved and/or have no clue about what's going on. as someone said above, you should have both sides of the story, imho.
shame such situations happen, i feel for brad because, as many artists, i know what it is to work a lot and live almost on the pavement, but i don't think this regards any of us or should warrant such a hate flow against probably the wrong person.
my two cents.
Suppose everything that Jason has been accused of is true. Even if it were, is that reason to stop using this forum, a free resource that most of us have learned so much from? Using this forum doesn't give anyone money, and so is not supporting anyone directly -- it only helps you.
I guess one can argue that having a community here does give some prestige. Hmm.. I guess the thing is: I like CA. I like the forums and the community and high-criticism, serious-about-art atmosphere. I like the inspiring threads, tutorials, x-of-the-weeks, people who take both digital and traditional methods seriously, everything. If someone is not getting paid, that totally sucks, but that's not reason for me to give up a world that I like and benefit from so much.
I don't think individuals who benefit from CA like I do have responsibility to stop doing so if CA and an artist they're paying gets into a financial/legal dispute. Legal institutions will be a lot more effective at both finding out definitively what happened, and righting the wrong, than CA posters. (Though I would agree mods and people more structurally affiliated with CA have a bit more responsibility, and should look into it for their peace of mind.)
Breaks my heart to hear Ron Lemen is no longer going to attend the workshop. He was one of the top instructors that made me want to attend in the first place. If any more ditch it, I'll have to consider getting a refund. Hoping things will be cleared up and that won't be necessary...
my thoughts about this i really dont give a shit if some guy i don't know didn't get paid..i'm still a beginner at drawing so i suck at it..i come on here for entertainment and inspiration and to learn something about art and maybe post some of my drawing..it's a shame how many people or abandoning ship on here...if this forum shots down i thing myself and lot of people will be screwed over...does Brad Rigney gev a shit if i get screwwed over? the answer to that question is NO! so why shoud i gev a shit about it.
But its pretty clear from what youve already said that you dont need any proof, and neither does the internet. The trial by public opinion finds the defendant guilty on all charges.
The punishment? Destroy CAO.
This whole thing smacks of a mob on the rampage. Is that who you want to be? Its ugly.
Also, Jason, for what it's worth: The most reassuring thing would be to fire the person responsible.
(Assuming it is someone else's screw-up as you said.)
And get Brad his money immediately, for good faith if nothing else.
I understand what you mean about the angry mob thing, but that doesn't discount what they're angry about.
And it has to do with their dispute because many of us have spent money thinking it was going to the artists.
Last edited by Ian Barker; March 6th, 2013 at 06:48 AM.
That's awful news. I hope the best for anyone involved directly.
That being said,
I truly hate seeing CA getting dragged into this. I value this place a great deal and it has given me a lot. I also believe its heart and soul lie in its members, not in a single figurehead. No pitchfork and torch for me, especially not against CA.
I think everyone needs to calm down before we wreck our town.
Thats all im saying.
Not to mention that I (and many others) bought some of those tutorials. It is really saddening and frustrating to learn that the money we gave away is (apparently) not going to the people who deserve it most.
Is bad that this is happening and is bad for the community and will only hurt us. I also think that this problem here is deeper then some paycheck and it reflects the crisis we are in and the industry is in at the moment.
What I want to say is that I am not taking Jason's side (I don't know what or who is right in this case) however I think above all it hurts the community more then anything. I personally would like to see the London workshop happening. After who knows how many years everybody might be in the same room together (hopefully without cutting each other's throats )...is that too much to ask? If this fight here hurts that perspective or destroys this forum then I have to say I disapprove with Brad's action.
I support the "Imagination" Workshop event and this forum as it's bigger then any personal drama. Maybe is time to get together not only for this kind of fights but for some constructive actions as well.
Ah, pains me a lot to see a lot of familiar faces already jumping ship. If I jump depends a lot on any evidence that comes forward frankly. Brads journal feels heartfelt, yet I know nothing of the relationship between him and Jason. Or even the two themselves. The only thing I have to go on is that there was drama like this before on the boards with previous artists, TAD and Jason. So it appears again, do I jump to the conclusion that "Oh well it's Jason again must be 100% like Brads journal says". Part of me felt that way when reading once again, but part of me just needs to see the evidence because I've read one too many blog posts from people I've met spouting shit about people I know. They sound very convincing but there's plenty of unknown details they forget to list or some skewed facts even if it wasn't on purpose.
Then the fact that Brad hasn't posted on CA in I think 2 years. http://conceptart.org/forums/search.php?searchid=660100. Right after he set up his tutorial. This to me I'm guessing means some shit likely went down between him and this site or even him and Jason, who knows. I mean why else would you just stop posting on a site that's showing/selling your tutorials and one you probably enjoyed? That's my guess at least. That and Brad has said he's been fighting for checks for .... 2 years.... so I'm guessing they ended on a sour note.
Either way it comes down to some actual evidence. So tomorrow will be an interesting day when I wake up. Very curious about any new developments.
Say everything is true. Say the evidence comes out and the courts favor Brad(if it goes that far), therefore makes him pay out all he owes to everyone. If Jason is able to even afford to keep this place running, this place will always be associated with his reputation. That means whatever comes out of it will come with that heavy string attached.
Now say you keep posting on this site, and somehow this site persists despite the negativity associated with it, and you are able to build up a nice little core group of kickass artists amongst yourselves. Eventually you're going to hit a wall. You might want to put together your own workshop someday. Are you going to use the conceptart.org name, with all the baggage it carries? Are you going to go through the site, knowing what type of business practices you're going to have to deal with? If the answer is no, then why use the site in the first place. Personally, I think it would be better just to start fresh someplace else where you don't have to even think of potential future problems. Also, won't you feel just a little bit dirty about using a site where you found out that the founder has been engaging in unscrupulous practices against the artists he purported to be helping?
I would have doubted of Brad's story if this was the very first time something like this happened here, but unfortunately it's not !
It's really saddening to see that some guys (the financial dep and JM) are ruining the trust of this community just to make a little more money on some artist's back that trusted you.
Maybe you should quit all the art stuff and start to work on wall street. With this sort of attitude you'll fit perfectly there!
I think the situation is ironic and sad.
I believe that I owe a lot to the CA.org community, over the years that I've been a part of it I've learned and shared so much with the people here. However for a community/site that advocates to be fighting for the rights of artist it's a very serious accusation. Especially since there are now more artists confirming that this is not a rare case. No matter how much of it is true, it's a fair warning to aspiring artists out there. For that I support Brad in going public, I don't think he would put his reputation on the line if he wasn't convinced he was right. As for Mr. Manley, his reputation on CA and outside is not exemplary and that might have some damaging consequences for him in the future. Maybe it would be a good idea for him to take a step back for the time being until the air is cleared.
I do however hope that there will always be a community for (aspiring) concept artists, on this site or another.
No, when the Man tells promises you workshops which you spend money preparing for, only to have it delayed or cancelled without warning, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man tells you that he advocates for the copyright of all artist then go around and uses other artists' art without permission for his own gain, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man promises a great education learning from prolific artists for starving students, then does a bait-and-switch with the tutor line-up right after he gets your money, you call out on the bullshit. When the man drives away the very people he used to call "best friends" who contributed to the very foundations of CA, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man tells you that you must buy art tutorials to keep a non-profit site dedicated to helping artists grow stay running, then goes around and publicly humiliates kids, posting personal info and sadistically bragging about ruining their careers because of one mistake, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man then goes even further, and pockets all the money from said tutorials for himself, leaving those who contributed because they loved this community high and dry, you call out on the bullshit.
You know what? I can go on...but you get the idea.
The worst reason why there's a "direct influence"? When you call out on the bullshit and then gets perma-banned from the very community that you love by the said Man.
This is not an isolated incident, it's simply the straw that broke the camel's back.
This is the context behind the thread, this is why people are angry that bullshit like this keeps dragging CA's name through the mud. Have you seen what others outside of CA think about us these days? THEY believe Jason has a very BIG influence on CA. Do you think both amateur or experienced artists would be interested in joining a community that advocates screwing over other artists?
You say what Jason does shouldn't have an impact on the CA community, but don't you see, it DOES, and that's why we're discussing this. No one outside of CA separates the site from Jason, what he does is reflected upon all of us. When new artists don't want to join us and older members leave/ get banned, what do you think will be left of the community?
If you really want Jason to have no influence or "direct involvement" over how we use CA.org, then I think you know the answer to your question - this is why we want Jason gone.
Some people would prefer to go off to where the air is less tense, and that is their right as well.
maybe not now, but you don't know how you're going to feel, say 5 years from now. It's also not true that there's nothing to lose from us boycotting this site. Nobody is willingly try to destroy the site. I've been here since '03. From '03 to about '07 I got so much out of this site. I would love for this place to keep doing what it used to do for so many of us. Unfortunately it's not going to if all the professional artists don't want to support it just because of the bad business practices of a few people at the top.
Really upsetting to see that some iconic forum members are leaving. I love the community here; Where is everybody going, CGHUB?
New account for a fresh start.
My response was a hypothetical based on the outcome falling a certain way. I don't have anything to do with Crimson Daggers. Why would you lump us both in the same post like that? You're really reaching there.
I don't get why you are so adamantly against our viewpoint. What do you have to gain by defending this site so much?