Avenlei the Night Elf

[DBZMerciter2005]

After a week off of drawing, I came back with this. I really like the feel of the picture, so I want to keep working on it. I've ditched all my other User ID ideas since I want this to be my new user ID instead. I need some critiques on the picture, though.

Things I know are iffy:
- Mouth's too long. I do plan on working on it.

- Pose is a bit iffy, but it's difficult to find a good, "I'm a hunter" pose with women, let alone from the side.

- Her eyes really could use some work. They don't seem to be sitting in the head like I want them to. That's probably because I haven't studied eyes well enough.

- Her breasts seem odd.

- Her ear is actually a little too short for a Night Elf. Easy fix.

Thanks!

[Kitpup]

Okay, so, narrow the eyes, they're simply not that large, bring down the eyebrow, thin the front of the neck.
Now, a full-on profile isn't going to give you the feeling that you want. You're going to want to tilt the front or the back of the ribcage towards the viewer and bring the other arm into view.
Otherwise the image is entirely static. You're getting the 'hunter' feel in the face, now bring it down into the body. If you have to, extend the canvas down so that you can work on the lower portion of the body so you get the full stance, even if you never bring anything other than what's on the canvas now to completion, you'll get a much more solid end image.

[Havok Reed]

my two cents, the body says female and the head says male. You are using sharp angles and opposite curves than what should be there. The nose and chin are your main problems here. I did a sketch over to show you what I mean.

I added a facial tattoo just for fun =b. As you pointed out, the eye was way too big, the nose was adjusted, the lips are drawn more feminine (Which i made them a bit small, and since I play WoW I know that the night elf females have big lips. so just think about that.) the ear was extended. Some stuff might be off as far as proportions go, but I just wanted to get my point across. Hope this helped.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Kitpup

Okay, so, narrow the eyes, they're simply not that large, bring down the eyebrow, thin the front of the neck.
Now, a full-on profile isn't going to give you the feeling that you want. You're going to want to tilt the front or the back of the ribcage towards the viewer and bring the other arm into view.
Otherwise the image is entirely static. You're getting the 'hunter' feel in the face, now bring it down into the body. If you have to, extend the canvas down so that you can work on the lower portion of the body so you get the full stance, even if you never bring anything other than what's on the canvas now to completion, you'll get a much more solid end image.

Awesome, thanks! I'll pull out my World of Warcraft Model Viewer for the pose because I know exactly which look you're talking about. It may not be picture perfect, but it'll be enough to get the pose down.

Originally Posted by Havok Reed

my two cents, the body says female and the head says male. You are using sharp angles and opposite curves than what should be there. The nose and chin are your main problems here. I did a sketch over to show you what I mean.

I added a facial tattoo just for fun =b. As you pointed out, the eye was way too big, the nose was adjusted, the lips are drawn more feminine (Which i made them a bit small, and since I play WoW I know that the night elf females have big lips. so just think about that.) the ear was extended. Some stuff might be off as far as proportions go, but I just wanted to get my point across. Hope this helped.

I didn't include Avenlei's facial tattoo because I'm not quite confident enough with the 3d structure of the face to go with it. She looks like this in game, and I can't imagine how difficult it'll be to put on the tattoo.

I understand what you're saying. I know that in WoW female Nelves tend to have large lips, but I don't really like large lips, let alone drawing them. The drawing you drew on there is far, far too feminine for Avenlei. She's supposed to be more masculine and tough, less pretty, big lipped, and girly looking. I know that Blizzard likes to draw their Nelves really feminine and girly, but Avenlei is not that at all.

I also really like the nose since I think "hawk noses" are rather pretty. Although I didn't use this picture as a reference, I will when I go back and fix the picture. I was trying to make Avenlei have her nose and lips but different eyes.

I'll see what I can do to make her look more feminine in the face without losing the nose and lips. Thanks for the critique.

[Nezumi Works]

I don't know if I've sent you this link before, but try out some of the stuff on this site. Even if you deviate considerably from it in the end, it's valuable stuff to learn, and it communicates the concept that the features are forms applied to a sphere. This seems like the sort of project where you could get a lot out of using those techniques.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Nezumi Works

I don't know if I've sent you this link before, but try out some of the stuff on this site. Even if you deviate considerably from it in the end, it's valuable stuff to learn, and it communicates the concept that the features are forms applied to a sphere. This seems like the sort of project where you could get a lot out of using those techniques.

Oh thank you! I've been wanting to find something like this. I've been working on my spheres lately, and this'l be wonderful. Thanks!

[Nezumi Works]

One little tip that might help you with spheres and other 3D basic shapes, remember midlines. Get in the habit of drawing an ellipse within the circle to represent a line in perspective around the sphere, and not only will it look more "solid" to you, it'll help a LOT to keep track of which direction it's facing. Take a look at some of these, for example, the addition of the midline gives a lot of form, and you can take it out when you clean things up.

[Havok Reed]

I didn't include Avenlei's facial tattoo because I'm not quite confident enough with the 3d structure of the face to go with it. She looks like this in game, and I can't imagine how difficult it'll be to put on the tattoo.

I understand what you're saying. I know that in WoW female Nelves tend to have large lips, but I don't really like large lips, let alone drawing them. The drawing you drew on there is far, far too feminine for Avenlei. She's supposed to be more masculine and tough, less pretty, big lipped, and girly looking. I know that Blizzard likes to draw their Nelves really feminine and girly, but Avenlei is not that at all.

I also really like the nose since I think "hawk noses" are rather pretty. Although I didn't use this picture as a reference, I will when I go back and fix the picture. I was trying to make Avenlei have her nose and lips but different eyes.

I'll see what I can do to make her look more feminine in the face without losing the nose and lips. Thanks for the critique.

Well, you can still keep all the features you want, the nose structure and smaller lips and so on. But no matter how masculine a girl is, they mostly have the same feminine structure. I think what you should do is at least make the chin smaller. Doing that would make her a little more feminine, but with the features you want. You could also take a look at images of athletic women to work off of. I may sound picky, but since I love World of Warcraft, I tend to keep true to their character structures.

[Elwell]

Joining in on the redline fun, here's what I'd do:

[MT-Mystic]

Seems like you pretty much know what's wrong with your image from your first post. Why don't you just fix the issues?

[Kitpup]

Oooh, I can completely agree with Elwell's feminization of the face, no big lips, still got the hawk nose and the nice sharply angled eyebrows but the chin's a lot smoother.
If it wasn't for the breasts in the original sketch your character would've been very angrogenous, that smoother look to the face will make Avenlei actually look like a girl (without being a -girl-... savvy?)

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Havok Reed

Well, you can still keep all the features you want, the nose structure and smaller lips and so on. But no matter how masculine a girl is, they mostly have the same feminine structure. I think what you should do is at least make the chin smaller. Doing that would make her a little more feminine, but with the features you want. You could also take a look at images of athletic women to work off of. I may sound picky, but since I love World of Warcraft, I tend to keep true to their character structures.

I understand the sentiment with keeping to structure. It'd be awfully hard for me to draw DBZ characters without sticking to Akira's style, or at the very least making the men look like body builders.

The bolded part confuses me, though. Not all women have smaller features than men, not all women are dainty and/or, whatever other features are considered feminine. It bothers me that I have to draw my women like that to say "Hey that's a girl." As my friend asked me the other day, "What, a full chest isn't enough?"

Originally Posted by Elwell

Joining in on the redline fun, here's what I'd do:

Attachment 840944

I like that. I really, really like that.

Originally Posted by MT-Mystic

Seems like you pretty much know what's wrong with your image from your first post. Why don't you just fix the issues?

I like to know what else is wrong before I go ahead and dive in. I don't want to work really hard on something just to have a huge part of it be wrong and start over. All of the advice has been good so far and I can't imagine how much time I'd spend fixing her pose, making her more "feminine", etc if I had fixed the issues I was aware of first.

Originally Posted by Kitpup

Oooh, I can completely agree with Elwell's feminization of the face, no big lips, still got the hawk nose and the nice sharply angled eyebrows but the chin's a lot smoother.
If it wasn't for the breasts in the original sketch your character would've been very angrogenous, that smoother look to the face will make Avenlei actually look like a girl (without being a -girl-... savvy?)

I seem to have a thing for drawing my characters very androgynously. I'm not entirely sure why, but I do. To me they look like women enough for someone to say, "That's a girl," but to everyone else they ask, "Is that a man or a girl?"

I do love his red line. It really helps.

[rolandb]

I, for one, am happy to see that someone is making an effort to draw female characters with strong features. Or even androgynous features. I think Elwell's version strikes a nice balance. I know that as illustrators, we often have to reduce the world to black and white categories in the name of making everything instantly recognizable, but it's always nice to see some of the shades of gray being represented, too. At least, that's my personal opinion.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by rolandb

I, for one, am happy to see that someone is making an effort to draw female characters with strong features. Or even androgynous features. I think Elwell's version strikes a nice balance. I know that as illustrators, we often have to reduce the world to black and white categories in the name of making everything instantly recognizable, but it's always nice to see some of the shades of gray being represented, too. At least, that's my personal opinion.

Well I just hate being told "draw them more feminine" when to me my characters are perfectly feminine enough. I do not care for the super curved, big lips, small nose, big eyes look that seems to be incredibly popular these days. I draw my women the way I like 'em in real life, which, more often than not, is not stereotypically feminine.

=========

So I went into World of Warcraft Model Viewer, got a picture of Avenlei running, and used that as the base for the pose. Once I got it down I tweaked it a bit thanks to one of the people I follow on Deviant Art.

This is the model from in game:


This is the new sketch:


I drew in the lines thick because I like to erase to get line art. I also drew in the muscles heavier than they will be. I enjoy drawing arms, hence why there's so much detail in them. In the final product, though, they won't be nearly as pronounced.

No hair this time, but that's because I'm debating on if this is a running picture or a fighting picture.

[Havok Reed]

Elwell, thank you. you drew what I was trying to explain this entire time. Apparently I'm not good at explaining xD. Just the moderate tweek with the chin and lips made a world of difference! In my previous post, I did not say "most/more masculine women have smaller features than men", just that women hold the same basic structure, curves and smoothness.

EDIT

Oh hey look a new post =b! Looking good, thing that sticks out right away is the upper chest (where the breasts are kind of merging in with the lower part), and I think the neck is a tad too long.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Havok Reed

Elwell, thank you. you drew what I was trying to explain this entire time. Apparently I'm not good at explaining xD. Just the moderate tweek with the chin and lips made a world of difference! In my previous post, I did not say "most/more masculine women have smaller features than men", just that women hold the same basic structure, curves and smoothness.

EDIT

Oh hey look a new post =b! Looking good, thing that sticks out right away is the upper chest (where the breasts are kind of merging in with the lower part), and I think the neck is a tad too long.

Bolded part is something I still don't get. Not all women are built the same and have the same look. Sure they, in general, share the same figure eight look, chicken legs, and fuller breasts, but not all do (I saw a girl that looked like a man the other day at work. Wow it was fun to observer her). Why should I have to draw all females exactly the same? Wouldn't that get boring? Is there any way to elaborate your point a little better? I'd love to understand, but I don't get it.

Heh yeah. xD I can talk all day, but getting me to DO something is another feat. >_>

As for chest, I've not drawn them all that much. I was just using what the model viewer provided me. Here's the model picture I used without the hair in the way, so you can see what I was going for. (Sorry about it being an external link, but the database seems to be having some issues.)

I can see where the neck might be a little long. That always irritates me because there doesn't seem to be a surefire way to get the necks the right size. I don't want them to be too small, but whenever I do draw something, even from reference, they're too big. I'll go back and fix it.

[Kitpup]

Originally Posted by DBZMerciter2005

I seem to have a thing for drawing my characters very androgynously. I'm not entirely sure why, but I do. To me they look like women enough for someone to say, "That's a girl," but to everyone else they ask, "Is that a man or a girl?"

I have the same problem, it's an on-going battle, people expect women to scream "I AM FEMALE, SEE MY BOOBS, SEE MY LIPS, SEE MY HIPS AND LEGS AND HAIR" and they're not used to anything deviating from that, even 'dykey' looking girls still tend to look like girls in most media ... to make it easy for the public.

So basically take all of the 'make her more feminine' advice with a grain of salt and your own vision of the character. Don't argue it, of course, it's freely given-freely accepted. But it's worth it to explore, even it you scrap it later.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Kitpup

I have the same problem, it's an on-going battle, people expect women to scream "I AM FEMALE, SEE MY BOOBS, SEE MY LIPS, SEE MY HIPS AND LEGS AND HAIR" and they're not used to anything deviating from that, even 'dykey' looking girls still tend to look like girls in most media ... to make it easy for the public.

So basically take all of the 'make her more feminine' advice with a grain of salt and your own vision of the character. Don't argue it, of course, it's freely given-freely accepted. But it's worth it to explore, even it you scrap it later.

I shall. I mean it'll be good for me to study more feminine features, but if I want my characters to appear more masculine, they shall.

Alright, update before I go to bed. I worked on the face for a few hours with the included picture as a reference. For the gritting teeth I pulled out my book Facial Expressions A visual Reference for Artists by Mark Simon and found what I needed. Who knew buying that book would be so helpful?

The biggest pain for this was the nose. Angela Aki (the photograph) has such a unique looking nose and has curves at such odd points that it took me five normal attempts, three traces, and then another attempt just to get it right. I don't mind, I think her nose is incredibly beautiful, but man did it take forever.

I did shorten her neck and work on the placement of her breasts a little bit to make it look better. I made the eyebrow come down farther than it probably should so that the angry expression could be seen better. I think I might bring the jaw up a bit since it seems too low and round. I'd like to make it a tad more angular and bring the chin out a tad more as well.

I'm a little worried about how intense her face is but how relaxed the rest of her body is. I may have to draw her holding her bow/gun and wearing her fist weapon for this to be pulled off well. I'm also worried about how I'm going to draw her ear. I can barely draw human ears, but at least there are real life references for those. I doubt three foot long ears exist in real life.

[Falchion]

Just remember to check your proportions for the head later. As it is, the noggin's a wee bit too small.

[MadFishBomb]

I agree with making her headspace a bit bigger. Also, I think it wouldn't hurt to make her boobs a bit bigger, to counter her slightly manly-looking arms. Otherwise, as far as I can see, everything's a-ok.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Falchion

Just remember to check your proportions for the head later. As it is, the noggin's a wee bit too small.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind. It does look a little small, doesn't it? The way it's going, though, it'll get bigger before I'm done. It'll be hidden under lots of hair, but I can at least get it right before I draw that in.

Originally Posted by MadFishBomb

I agree with making her headspace a bit bigger. Also, I think it wouldn't hurt to make her boobs a bit bigger, to counter her slightly manly-looking arms. Otherwise, as far as I can see, everything's a-ok.

Avenlei isn't a big chested woman anyways, so making her chest any larger would be, as she'd put it, "Just plain wrong." Thanks for the suggestion, though. You have to remember, in the final product her arms are not going to be as defined as they are right now. I just drew in the muscle lines because I have a huge thing for drawing muscular arms. Maybe making the arms less defined will help.

[Enydimon]

Remember that the breasts go a bit further back into the ribcage.



You've got them too far up on your drawing. Right now they just look like pockets coming out of the pectorals, not sacks of fat. Move it back and change the shape of it a bit and it should be good.

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by Enydimon

Remember that the breasts go a bit further back into the ribcage.



You've got them too far up on your drawing. Right now they just look like pockets coming out of the pectorals, not sacks of fat. Move it back and change the shape of it a bit and it should be good.

Oh good point! Thanks, Eny! I was going to do some torso sketching and studies before I got to that point anyways since my confidence with drawing torsos well is zilch, but now I know what else to look for. Thanks!

[DBZMerciter2005]

Whew, it's been a while. Sorry guys and gals! I decided to do some sketches from Constructive Anatomy just to make sure I would feel relatively confident before moving on.

Here's the new picture. I tweaked the pose a bit and added some shading to show you how I see the shadows in my mind. I even added the hair since Avenlei was yelling at me about how bald she is. :|

I know I have some issues with the chest/trunk. I plan on doing this pose myself and using that as a reference since piecing together random references is making the picture feel disconnected. Her right elbow is sticking out too far, but that's fine, I know how to fix that. I feel her head might be a smidge too big. Ick, I just noticed how off her collar bone is.

I looked up Night Elf ears and found some official art that really helped. The upper ear is made of more solid cartilage while the lower part of the ear is flimsy and prone to being torn. I'll be sure to show that more once I add in Avenlei's accessories (tattoos and earrings). Also don't mind the line going through her right breast and into the torso, that's just there to help me with her arm. It'll be gone soon.


What she's doing is she's holding a gun in her right hand (the Nesingwary 5000, which is all she's gotten since Wrath hit /cry) and her left hand is pulling out some bullets from a pouch.

Crits and comments are welcome! I think it's getting better each time I spend some time apart and go back to it.

[zwarrior]

nice love her right hand though I think it should be bigger.

Her notched isnt centered, I could be wrong, it seems crooked compared to the angle of her chest.

and this is more an opinion I think, but her expression should be exaggerated. She looks like she's badly acting instead of really expressing anger

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by zwarrior

nice love her right hand though I think it should be bigger.

Her notched isn't centered, I could be wrong, it seems crooked compared to the angle of her chest.

and this is more an opinion I think, but her expression should be exaggerated. She looks like she's badly acting instead of really expressing anger

I agree with the hand. I had issues with it because I drew it too small in the first place. However it's on a layer all its own, so making it bigger is a quick fix.

Yes, the collarbone's notch is off, and it's painfully obvious. >.< Something to fix the next time I work on it.

Oh awesome. I was going for something more realistic since everyone keeps harping on me to draw that way, but I can easily make her face more exaggerated and my style (realistic faces just aren't my thing). I'll have fun doing that. >:3

Thanks for the comment.

[zwarrior]

I just scrolled up and noticed the reference you used. take a picture of you doing that face instead of a calm expression. like, if you make your mouth like that, the face muscles will pull your nostrils up,I have a mirror next to me, tested it out lol

[DBZMerciter2005]

Originally Posted by zwarrior

I just scrolled up and noticed the reference you used. take a picture of you doing that face instead of a calm expression. like, if you make your mouth like that, the face muscles will pull your nostrils up,I have a mirror next to me, tested it out lol

I've got a whole BOOK full of facial expressions, and I just took the reference shot and quickly modified it to another picture I found (in the book) to get what I've got. It's not something I'm terribly nervous about. I've drawn that expression lots of times in my preferred style, so it'll be great to see that come to life here.