The money to pay for school comes from scholarships, financial aid (which is a loan) and bank loans. The grants and scholarships usually only pay for tuition, you can't use them to buy art supplies, website memberships, food, or anything else (I know, I had some scholarships.) The loans, ditto, only apply to tuition and maybe housing. Not peripherals. Any money you can scrape up on part-time work goes to food and art supplies (and rent, if you can't get housing covered by a loan.)
And the loans will suck away all your money for at least ten years after graduation as you pay them back...
Of course it's different if you're not in America.
Have it Harry!
Looks like the conversation took an interesting turn.
I wasn't an art student (I applied out of school but wasn't good enough to get in) but I've been through a few college art courses and have my own debts from that. One thing I wasn't was made of money. I had to work extra jobs just to meet the rent and feed myself because any loans I got barely covered materials and travel expenses. So no, money isn't something most art students have to pay for crits from professionals.
And the magic of this site is that there are pros here offering their time and advice for free. I love it for that alone. I've had the best crits of my artistic life from some of those guys and I absolutely appreciate the time and effort they put in. And what's more, they don't expect me to pay them for it. If CA became a pay per crit site, it would just be like every other place like that on the internet - closed to the public and only for people to give their sage advice, for a price. Fuck that for a game of soldiers.
I get that an open forum means lots of crazies join along with the dedicated learners and genuine talent, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to close CA to only those who can afford to pay, or worse, those who can prove they're already at pro level by passing an art test for elite access. I don't know. That all smacks of exclusivity and I don't think that's what this place is about. Doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm with Queen Gwenevere and others re that. I like the open atmosphere here and it's the only art site where I feel comfortable enough hanging out in the lounge areas as well as the creative sections. Not that I visit many other art forums but yeah, I don't visit their chat or discussion areas when I am there.
Anyway, I think I'm rambling now. Others have made excellent suggestions re certain areas of CA that could be improved and that's what I'm in agreement with. I'm pretty much totally against bitching about the owner when he's not here to defend himself or closing the site down to free access for all who want to learn.
P.S. Fern Britton wins hands down on the FoW.
you mentioned you aint been around, so let me give you some insight on how i see things, and where im coming from.
first off, i dont have any opinion about the person jason manley, i never met him. what i do have an opinion on, is actions been put forth in the past, or lack thereof. (no chronological order.)
#1) he (and whom ever been involved), started this workshop thing... and (from what i read and heard) its been totally awesome. that and after, imo was the biggest time of ca... the amsterdam workshop back in 2004. at that time i unfortunately couldnt afford a ticket, but ive been totally psyched about it. then theres been, i think 2 workshops inside the US, which i couldnt afford neither... not anyones fault but my own (id have died to meet dan milligan, jon foster and all the other big guns).
then theres been that talk surfacing about another european workshop going to happen (2006-2007 i think? correct me if im wrong), and i (aswell as alot of other europeans, who just couldnt afford flying over to the us) were all "whatever i have to do... im not gonna miss that opportunity!".
if i remember correctly theres been alot of fuzz and speculation about that, without a set date/beeing postponed for about 1-2 years. i think its been 2008 (again could be wrong, its hard to reconstruct that today with the threads beeing gone) when we were finally told when its going to happen. all's been fine. people bought plane tickets, arranged accommodation and so forth. just to be told its not going to happen on really short notice (without as far as i remeber any reasoning). as far as i remember jmanley personally tried to help those that already bought tickets, but such a short notice certainly left a sour taste.
#2) when i first came here (from cgtalk) and started browsing these forums in 2002 and for some years after, theres been that family like vibe going on... "we all want to grow as artists, recieve and put forth help,...". its been beyond words seriously (yeah i see someone posting that monty python clip, but it misses the point). ron lemen aka fred flickstone amongst others had mentoring threads going on (thats where i learned to do portraits), the painting from life thread in the traditional section literally been on fire (i remember el coro posting his stillife wip there, recieving good crit from ronlemen and drdarrow, pushing himself based on that), andrew jones posting daily portraits and what not.
last man standing? O M G !. so much great art and friendly competition, ment to push yourself and your peers in becoming better artists. one duel has been jon foster vs john mueller if i remember correctly? just awesome.
dan dos santos e.g. been roaming the crit section shortly after its been invented (back when madster been its mod haha fun days). the ca-chat has been full and oc sessions taking place all the time. everything has been about learning, pushing yourself and pushing your peers to do your best.
massiv black been founded and instructional videos created.... maaaaan so awesome. i spent like 1k ï¿½ on them (almost got all).
yet there something changed... gnomon (who did this video thing long before ca) started to be handled like a curseword on here (puddnhead doing a video for gnomon...) ... the spirit of "just and everything for the sake of art" started to fade in my perception. the flush wore off, and slowly started to transform into some kind of hangover feeling (which in my opinion seems to be at its peek right now). whats been "lets grow together" transformed into "oh we aswell could have earned some money doing that".
#3) apparently different opinions on how to proceed occured, and feelings were hurt. i dont care as i aint been part of it, wether it been the tad thing, the event of the made workshop taking place, or some other minor things. but it thoroughly changed the atmosphere. lot of good people, contributing alot to the site, left, which created a vacuum yet to be filled.
e.g. MADE workshop first been promoted slightly on here, always making sure "its not a massive black thing!"... well el coro (justin kaufmann), wes burton, andrew jones, marko djurdjevic, kemp remilliard, jason chan, carl dobsky, whit brachna, amonst others (sam brown, living rope, aleksi, shawn barber,...) been there. again drama occured, and while im not interested why and whom had his play in it, it changed the atmosphere for the worse.
#4) weve been teased with a site update for YEARS, beeing told we should buy the downloads to make it possible... some of us certainly did (i did for sure), NOTHING happend. and when it finally did... its been when theres finally been a team chow challenge happening... wtf. and as all of you know... it aint been down for days... but weeks. thats not what i expect to be professional. clear indication that what happens on ca is not of primary importance if it comes to ca, in my book.
i probably could go on, but i feel slightly drained now, so bear with me.
nothing of what ive said, is ment to insinuate its jason manleys personal fault... but if you put yourself forth as the mr ca.org... whom else to adress with your crit?
as for the fee-issue... lol... seriously... ca.org has been used as a marketing tool alot... either beeing instructional videos, massive black or TAD,... whereas a multitude of (unmentioned) people contributed voluntarily, to make what (at least was once renowned to be) is/been ca.org. without the initiative of jason manley, we probably wouldnt have ca.org, but it wouldnt have grown into what it is/has been without those others neither.
ps: in reference to the topic title... it certainly is not what it has once been.
Last edited by sone_one; January 22nd, 2013 at 04:40 PM.
I wasn't here at the start, but CA is a huge part of my life. I don't know about other people, but I follow a lot of beginner's SBs and alternately nag & praise them. It's great when you see beginners improve and hope you helped in some small way. So I throw out the challenge to each of you who moan about the site being not what it was - go and adopt a few beginners and help them, and do it quietly, don't try to make them a clone of you, but help them learn (search out that tutorial they need) and let them find their own voice.
I know you help out a lot in the critique section (I've got a piece up there now) but a lot of new members don't know their way around or where to look for help, just staying in the SB section where it can be pretty anonymous. They're the ones that need help to venture further.
A pretty wise man once said that one must be the change he wishes to see in the world... I'm not going to lie, there is a lot of sh*t going on here that I am not even going to pretend to act as though I understand, but community is really what you make of it.
Now let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya for f*cksake!
People could still access the site and exchange crits just fine, just like they do now in this model.
Also the standards I was thinking of were not pro only....at the very least it would do to weed out all of the spammers which are extremely irritating.
I think that in general CA was on fire in 2006-2008, everyone was feeling it and excited about it. it can still be that way again it just needs a fresh perspective. Maybe it's the recession.
Two important things must be done, or else...the tutorials and amazing SB's must be preserved, and it needs to honor artists who are actively contributing their professional time and energy to the forum.(like not six years ago - exclusive content forum, ahem)
I don't understand why people start out with "well I wasn't around to find out why people aren't happy with X person but who cares"
While it's certainly not a good idea to go out and outright insult someone, at the same time outright dismissing something that happened through sheer ignorance is just stupid. Shut up.
No really STFU.
CA has its history, its ups and downs. Again this isn't "insult the owner" time but nor is it "y'all people who have a problem are babies"
So if you have ideas to help improve the site, share them if you want something to be better, go ahead
But stop with the other nonsense.
Can you be more precise on who you are telling to shut up, so that we on the sidelines might follow what or who has raised your ire?
give it a rest crazy Mrs Carmody from The Mist. deliberately provoking something so "you on the sidelines" can titter along while everyone attacks eachother is whats known as a dick move.
The worst most divisive thing you said was
You dont need to pay artists for crits, you need to pay a therapist.
Most other people myself included just seem to respond to Queen G when she said "I like CA the way it is. It's the closest equivalent I can find to the stairwell in art school, where you can hang out and shoot the breeze with like-minded people."
Youll need to get used to people disagreeing with you Im afraid because A] loads of people with different views is a critical prerequisite for interesting things to happen, and B] because no on likes your ideas for making the crit forum a closed pay-only place, that would kill the core of what is good about CA dead instantly as it shut down 99.9% of its through traffic. or as Roaul said
Last edited by Velocity Kendall; January 23rd, 2013 at 05:06 AM.
I don't really agree with the idea of paid crits. You get the same conflict as content creators with ads.
Would a blogger come out with an article trashing a product from the company that is paying his bills? Will the paying artist with a soft skin appreciate an honest critique, or will they go for the guy that always flatters them?
I believe you'd end up with masters that would be too soft or too brutal all the time, as if catering to different demographics. Mixing business with crits would kind of ruin the spirit of it.
Now, llama icons with funny (and expensive) hats. THAT's what CA needs
(BTW, wasn't there an IRC chat once? what happened with that?)
"Great job guys! I love you. You're fired."
Sketchbook! Me vs Anatomy (and other things)
What I would like to see is the tutorial section overhauled. That place is just so overwhelming its hard to figure out where to go and start, people just put anything and everyhting up there abit like deviantart, and then just label it beginner tutorial when it blatantly isnt. I would like to see tutorials and sections that are promoted more so people can know how and were to start in drawing. you notice for the past few years its just the same threads, where do i start, how do i draw, how do i read a book etc etc. I mean this place is meant to be one of the places where alot of famous artists hang out or used to hang out. All people do mainly now is just post in the SB section, and keep posting stupid shite.
I really would like to see tutorials made by people that setup tad, ca to help the community. I am not talabout $50k schools, or $100 videos. I feel ca and tad alot atm is about just making money, and if anything is said agasint either ca or tad those people are shut down. How about the people that setup tad do someabout setting up a proper beginners tutorial section to encourage people to use this site and its resources other than posting a SB.
And no, I wasn't saying Jason Manley cant defend himself here. Pretty much the opposite. That if people want to call him out on shit then do it when he's around to defend himself or take it to the guy in person. That's not me trying to defend someone I don't know because they own the forum I use, it's just how I think about things in general.
Though, I'm not sure I got your comments about that correct. There might be a translation issue, so if I got you wrong, sorry, and feel free to ignore my above comment.
Re making suggestions. I think I have. Maybe I didn't but thought I did, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure I did...
But since you asked so nicely.
I like the idea of having people's artwork visible on the front page.
I think the student art gallery should be made more of because it's kind of hiding down below somewhere which is a shame. The work in there is stellar.
I think the community activities could definitely be made more of and the winners' work displayed prominently. In a banner on the front page, like others have suggested.
Ferns are cool but not a necessity.
Just some notes. I love the overall atmosphere of the site but one of the things I started noticing are the following and think some of these changes can improve the site.
New people that have very little or new experience to art, talking down to those with experience. I don't mean some political disagreement. I mean art advice. That's just chases away people who took their time to help that actually have some standing. Don't come and complain how it's harsh here, but yet you get a critique and don't even engage the person who took the time. You're part of the problem with the harshness/nastiness. Ask questions about the advice, thank the person! It will only help.
Pros from different ends of the spectrum fighting. It's absolutely ok to disagree with methodology, but it started becoming "where are your credentials" and that also becomes disheartening. I actually hate this issue the most. If you guys have a disagreement about how to go about things, just politely state your disagreement and explain your methods, and stop making it so damn personal. If you guys are pros, and while I love the amount of freedom. It just looks bad on both parties overall. Even if some groups have left there are still pros on this site. No need to go at each other. And if you do, do it old school: Use the Thunderdome and challenge each other artistically.
People who refuse to post art when they ask about an art question that involves his/her progress. I give full go ahead to shut those threads down if people do not want to post their work so people can get an idea of what that person is having a problem with. It's like going to the dentist, complaining your teeth hurt, and not allowing the dentist to see it "because it might be painful". Get over it.
Asking more than participating. It's not that questions are bad. But there are some "chronic" users that continue to ask but not produce a sketchbook or art. At least let people see if their advice is getting somewhere.
You know maybe ive been lucky but even though i love a dust up about absolutely anything else in the Lounge no matter how ill-informed I am (usually very), ive never had a row with anyone about art stuff. Outside the lounge ive found everyone is dead respectful and nice to one another. Art Discussion topics get really indepth and way over my head, (Jeff, Kev, Bill, Chris etc have amazing discussion in there) so i enjoy following along without saying much, like i say tho maybe i got lucky so far.
Sure you get the usual sore response to some crits by some folks, but thats pretty standard and people almost always calm down and later really make big improvements.
There's a student art gallery?
Ok that's a sign that I need to get out of this lounge for a bit, I'm going to browse the crit sections and some random sketchbooks and find this elusive gallery...
p.s I really do believe that this site is just in a lull, we can fill the spaces that the majority of the pros left, you know, when we all become pros ourselves...we can do it! The eye of the tiger and all that...grr!
p.p.s - Well said Arshes.
You know, I was typing up a more thorough response, I'm just going to listen to my own inner ethos, and not get involved in this shit slinging. There's been plenty of suggestions and advice (The dynamically changing front panels. That is standard these days and quite easy to implement). And I thought one of the main virtues of art was to take criticism? I voiced mine about censorship, and objectively tried to be impartial about the drama (As opposed to getting nosy and getting involved in something I know nothing about, because that always makes things better). So I'd advise you on you taking your own.
"Never regret thy fall from grace, O' spirit of Icarian flight, for the greatest tragedy of them all to face, is to never feel the burning bright"
Believe my lies, for I tell the truth about them. Or would you rather me lie about telling the truth?
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The student gallery is a TAD student gallery showcase forum and a propaganda tool for manley PLC.
Yup, thats the one I was talking about.
There's an art gallery in there that I only recently discovered because it's so well hidden. Nothing to do with me spending more time than I should in the lounge. Nothing at all.
And dynamic banners for winners of challenges would indeed be awesome. I know it's been mentioned, I'm just reinstating how absolutely friggin cool that would be. COW was what originally made me sign up and actually do my first "painting", although at the time I was so shitty my creature didn't even get accepted. If it hadn't been for something as simple as COW, my life would look completely different right now.
..I'd probably have a masters degree in economy..
..And be making a decent living..
..Own a house..
....Have a girlfriend....
Damn you CA!
Yep. CHOW was what did it for me... Totally knocked me out of my comfort zone at the time and kick-started a massive self-improvement effort.
I seriously need to free up some time to do more challenges, I've learned something on every single challenge I've done here.
True, truep.s I really do believe that this site is just in a lull, we can fill the spaces that the majority of the pros left, you know, when we all become pros ourselves...we can do it! The eye of the tiger and all that...grr!
Well VK, if you can best me in an ART duel p'raps I will take you off my ignore list, these histrionics of yours won't do that. My interest in Arshe's frustration was sincere, albeit a bit confused, since I couldn't find the line of conversation she was referring to, and I had read the thread through twice. Unhappy forum managers generally make for an unhealthy forum so it's important to figure out this part of what she is saying.
No, absolutely not. We have stringent standards beyond which "people we don't like" (an absurdly juvenile label) cannot pass at all. There is absolutely no contact between them and management other than a polite form letter which consists of two sentences. These same people are welcomed in years later, after applying themselves in a determined fashion. This is not what I envisioned for CA, but a much looser mechanism which would at the very least strip spammers out 100%.you freely admit you systematically bully people you dont like into leaving
People who don't behave as they would in a school, library or business office are generally not welcome.
People disagree with me all of the time, it can't be helped anywhere in life, and I gladly accept it. I am not all mad about ideas being shot down as you would like to frame me, this is all part of a brainstorming process and quite accepted in business. As for your use of telling me to see a therapist as some sort of "weapon of shame" stigma, and comparing me with some homicidal religious nut from a movie, this is merely the weak argument from intimidation - it does nothing to make me want to see a therapist - nor would it make anyone want to. It just proves you are a mere man, and not a gentleman at all. I am very happy with my life, despite it revolving around you of course.
Ugh, the lounge, a guilty pleasure I could do without more than wine and cheesy french dip sandwiches.There's an art gallery in there that I only recently discovered because it's so well hidden. Nothing to do with me spending more time than I should in the lounge. Nothing at all.
Last edited by Izi; January 23rd, 2013 at 02:51 PM.
Also you were wrong about the silly religious nut character, this week I'm roleplaying as Emily Post. That would be obvious to anyone who has read her books.
Izi - When was the last time you saw a spammer? Since the hack was sorted a lot more was done. I haven't deleted a thread in 2 days for spam and only saw the odd one every now and then since we've been back. Profile spam if different. Just because things haven't changed here visibly, it doesn't mean things haven't.