A quick reply to complete Jason's post
I am adding this image, it shows your monitor color space compared to sRGB and Adobe RGB, that will give you a better idea of the differences.
A quick reply to complete Jason's post
I am adding this image, it shows your monitor color space compared to sRGB and Adobe RGB, that will give you a better idea of the differences.
Ok. So I after doing some more empirical testing... I'm not completely convinced that the issue is Photoshop CS5. With regards to it being Photoshop's issue, I can't really find this issue coming up for anyone else online... a few similar issues, but not exactly the same.
I took my TIF image from Painter 12 with the embedded color profile of "sRGB IEC61966-2-1 withBPC". When I open it in Photoshop CS5 It appears the same as in Painter 12, on my MacBook Pro. On the Dell screen there is a difference, In Painter it looks desaturated. We know this already.
In Safari and in Preview on my Dell screen, I get the same look as the Photoshop image... More Saturated than Painter.
Now, when i save the image with no color profile. I then open it in Preview and in Safari, and the result matches Painter... or it is at least so close that I can hardly tell.
In Photoshop, the non-profiled image is still saturated, no change from the profiled image... So that is a bit confusing.
It seems like Painter12 is just not profiling the image on the Dell. Or maybe that is wrong and the Dell screen is so close to covering sRGB that even with out a profile, the image appears just about how it should... even without an embedded profile. I have no idea.
When it comes down to it, Something is funky between Photoshop CS5 and Painter 12 and how they differently manage color.
The only thing that seems odd to me is that in Photoshop the Black Point Compensation is a separate setting from the profile... and in Painter, it seems to be embedded in the profile... maybe that is giving me problems? Even then though, That doesn't really expelling the behavior in Safari and Preview. And anyways, in the past i experimented with different profiles and turning BPC off and on... no difference.
"sRGB IEC61966-2-1 withBPC" Profiled TIF Image appears saturated, on the Dell, in:
(Appears not-saturated in Painter)
Non-Profiled TIF image appears not-saturated, on the Dell, in:
(Appears Saturated in Photoshop)
very confusing. Again, thanks for everyone's help... is anyone else having an issue like this?
Just re-installed Painter 11 to compare... The image appears just about the same as in Photoshop CS5, that is, more saturated than Painter 12.
So, I'm pretty sure something has changed from 11 to 12. Maybe Painter 12 is exhibiting the correct behavior, but it would appear that it is the only app I have that does so.
Ok. New info...
So In OS X. I switched my main display to my Dell, under "arrangement" in the display preference pane. Basically, that becomes the screen where my dock and menu bar reside... the main display.
Now, When I open my image in Painter 12, on my Dell, I get an exact match to Photoshop CS5. When I drag it to my MacBook Pro screen (now my secondary display), the image becomes massively over saturated.
I will just be working in this way from now on, Dell as main screen. But I have to say... from color-profile-amateur's perspective... this seems like a Painter 12 issue.
I have had other issues with Painter 12 and secondary screens, not related to color.
One of the complaints was that Painter's Color Management is horrible.
One of the improvements in Painter 12 was the color management.
Now you're getting a taste why color management can be important.
With all your problems I realized it was not so easy to diagnose a color management issue with dual screen, so I made a dual screen color management test. I thought about posting it later but that's a perfect occasion finally. I will post it after this reply...
...and your working space is...sRGB! So untagged images are displayed as sRGB images.
The only way to see untagged images with your monitor native color is to deactivate color management using
this image which is using a custom sRGB profile where I inverted the colors. Such image is not great from an artistic point of view but it is better than yours to diagnose a color management issue because:
-it uses the most saturated color available with one gradient. Anything that makes the gradient looks different is because of color space limitation
-with color management, the colors change completely (red becomes blue, blu -> green, green -> red) so it becomes easy to see where color management is used.
So, I extrapolated the Preview and Safari rendering based on what you said.
Is it correct?
If it is correct that means MacOS is not sending the right profile to the second screen. Maybe Painter is not using the native MacOS API, that's why it is not concerned by this issue.
If you remember, I said before the grab tool which makes screen capture had embedded the wrong profile.
You can open the Dell capture you sent me and you will get that:
So now the question...which version of MacOS are you using? Unfortunately, I can't test Mac with dual screens.
This post will allow you to test if your dual screens is using correctly color management. It does not request from you any kind of advanced knowledge about color management. You just need to know how to attribute a color profile to your monitors.
So, you will find in attachment a zip file which contains two color profiles. They are modified sRGB profile.
sRGB IEC61966-21 (modified BRG).icc
sRGB IEC61966-21 (modified GBR).icc
The BRG and GBR means I replaced RGB values respectively by Blue Red Green and Green Blue Red
You need now to set the BRG profile as your first monitor profile and the GBR one to your second monitor... Now, when you will use a color managed application, the colors will change in a radical way:
-if the red becomes blue (and so on), that means the first monitor profile is used.
-if the red becomes green, that means the second monitor profile is used.
You can use this image for the test. It is an sRGB image with standard sRGB profile (this one is not the same than the one posted before).
Just load it in your programs.
So here the expected result for MacOS and Windows if everything works correctly:
The text below sample images is describing the specific program behavior.
From this test under Windows 7, Painter 12 and Photoshop CS5 are using the right color profile. However, Painter 11 is using the first screen profile for the second monitor...
Last edited by hecartha; November 23rd, 2011 at 02:40 PM.
Ok. Did the test... I'm pretty sure Painter 12 is messing up. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
Here is the setup...
In OS X, the external Dell is set as my main screen. MacBook Pro is set as my secondary screen.
I applied the BRG profile to my Dell, and the GBR to my MacBook Pro. Everything appears great (same as your sample) on my Dell. On the MacBook Pro, it seems as if Painter 12 is not color managing the image. Photoshop appears good on both screens.
I'll let the images speak for themselves... Photoshop is the top image in the screen caps.
Last edited by hecartha; November 24th, 2011 at 07:13 AM.
Ok. I see what you mean, I guess I was confused... Not on my computer right now to confirm the results again, but at least I have a solution for consistent color on my Dell, which is what matters for my workflow.
Thanks a million for all your help! I'd have been lost.
it seems your problem is not a Photoshop only issue also. Are you using Lion?
I am. Fully updated. Photoshop also fully updated. And no mention anywhere online of others experiencing a similar issue (that I can find).
Yes, you have a solution using your Dell as main screen.
An example of Lion issue with dual screen
That talks about issue with Lion with the main monitor profile is used for the second screen. It is not exactly your problem because some people seems to say the problem comes from identical screen only but it demonstrates Lion is far to be perfect for now.
Now your problem is maybe not only located to your screen profile and color management. Maybe it concerns also the embedded gamma correction you have in your color profiles. This correction is able to fix gamma on the fly so your screens can match the 2,2 gamma curve. The correction is able also to change the white point temperature.
Your MacBook Pro correction and your Dell
When you apply a color profile to the second screen, do you observe a change with the colors when displaying this page in Safari (by this page I mean this forum)? It is difficult to observe light change with MacOS because it animates the modification to make the transition "smoother"...but your macbook pro uses an heavy correction so you should be able to observe it if it works on second screen. The correction is decreasing the max blue level to make the white warmer.
Ok First... yes I do see an animated color shift, after the initial switch in profiles... it's pretty obvious when switching between the two crazy profiles you gave me.
Now, Second... I knew I wasn't crazy So back to the rainbow gradient image... I am looking at the MacBook screen right now (set as the secondary screen), I have the GBR profile applied. The rainbow image is open in both Photoshop and Painter. The Photoshop image has green as the left most color. The Painter image has red as the left most color.
With the BRG profile applied to my Dell (set as the main screen), both left hand colors are blue... the expected result.
Something is getting messed up with the capture... I guess you will just have to take my word for it
So, once again... I think something is up with Painter 12. Am i still wrong?
Your Dell should change a little bit, the whole colors should appear a little darker.
Remember we are talking about gamma correction here so try to hide any color managed image like the wallpaper when applying a profile to focus only on what gamma correction is changing.
My theory is maybe the right gamma correction is not applied to your two screens. That could "explain" why you are talking about a "massively over-saturated" image with Painter on your MacBook Pro as secondary screen. As you are not saying clearly you are comparing the result before and after using your MacBook pro from first to secondary screen, I am trying to emulate the way you are describing which is not the most precise around.
The responsible could be MacOS or the Datacolor program which comes with your spyder3. I haven't tried on Mac if it uses as on Windows an utility loaded in background but there was an updated version for Lion.
Oh yes, you're right! Your behavior on this case illustrates perfectly the way you are thinking. You ignore what doesn't match your theory and embrace blindly what could make you right...So you determined the content of the capture was less important than what you saw...If being right is the most important for you, prepare yourself to be disappointed because you are the one who provided the data. That means at best you didn't even bother checking what you posted.
I don't know, I think I was not the kind of condescending asshole proud of a ridiculous little knowledge about one unique subject trying to impose his theory. I took the time to show you with illustrations of real examples how all of this thing worked. Perhaps I was wrong and I needed to use a different approach with you...
So, go back to the reality now. I provided you this test to show you in an obvious way your mistake. I didn't need it before because my conclusion was based on something more solid than the kind of "hack" I gave to you. I will explain later why this hack is less informative than the other tests.
As you said, there is something wrong somewhere and it seems to concern MacOS in my opinion because it altered at least the capture as you are supposing...or what you saw has been altered for any reason. I hope you will admit it was not the fault of Painter since its happens to the color managed wallpaper and Photoshop.
So, I based my conclusion on all the images and information you provided. I assumed you checked your screen captures being sure they matched with what you saw, that's the least you can do. A screen capture is something trivial enough so I had no reason to doubt about yours.
Now, what did happen to the capture? I will not talk about the cause because I have no idea since I am not in front of your computer. However, I can describe the result...the GBR profile seems to have been used to convert the RGB values you saw on the screen, so the red became green and the green became blue. In other words, the profile from your secondary screen has been used to convert (!?) the capture from this same screen...weird, Grab does not have such feature to convert to any profile.
However, I will keep this possibility in mind for the next part so maybe that will match the previous results.
Now, please read carefully the next part and let's talk about the images and information you provided:
-you described your problem and you posted a capture illustrating it. From your own words "It's a bit hard to tell in this image but basically as i said above, the image is just looking way less saturated". I paid attention to "it's a bit hard to tell". From your capture, the difference of saturation is obvious so why did you mention that? Perhaps it is another symptom. So about the capture...
Here is the result I organized to make the comparison easier.
I took the image from your website and I removed the profile (in lossless way) to compare everything using the same base.
If you look at it using Safari on your Dell, it should look almost identical to the image from your site (the blue should look a bit brighter).
About your captures now.
You can find each separated image for direct comparison:
The original image untagged and resized to match your captures
My expected result for:
and the Dell
And your captures for:
Painter on MacBook Pro
Photoshop on MacBook Pro
Painter on Dell
Photoshop on Dell
So the result is obvious considering your images, Photoshop used the wrong profile from first screen. The Painter capture is a bit darker compared to your original image and matches with my expected result. Identical color and artifact for the Photoshop image + identical colors for Painter, I hope you are able to recognize it is a lucky coincidence.
Now, what would happen if Grab edited the capture just like you said it did for the last test.
The Photoshop capture on Dell will just look a bit darker than the Painter capture...that doesn't match at all...the Painter capture will match however if the color management wasn't working.
Perhaps using the MacBook profile...it is not about first or secondary screen maybe but about the MacBook screen...that's close but the display compensation of the Dell is not visible as the blue should be darker. And the Painter image on the Dell does not match at all with this theory. I am starting to think about the Occam's razor. For now, without new element, I consider MacOs had a problem with this "crazy" profile.
And here comes the second test I requested to confirm what I saw with the first test. This time I provided the image with its special profile. The result confirms what I saw from your first post. Even if this test is using the same kind of profile than the third one, it is used this time as image profile and the visible alteration in gradient shows an RGB adjustment based on your screen profile. So for now, I see no reason to reject this one especially because it shows the same result as the first test which is free of any "hack".
Here the original Image converted to sRGb to allow direct comparison
My expected result on:
And your capture for
Painter on Macbook Pro
Photoshop on MacBook Pro
Painter on Dell
Photoshop on Dell
Feel free to provide your own explanation if you did not agree.
I said these tests where more solid, so now the explanation:
The two previous tests showed not only a color change but also a display compensation. The captures you provided show exactly the same artifact of an RGB adjustment. The last test I provided has messed something. First, I noticed Grab did not embed the monitor profile to the capture. The reason is because it has considered the profile was an sRGB profile. I have made a test on a Mac and when the monitor profile is sRGB, Grab does not embed it. Now the capture has been changed according to you, I can't consider this test as valid as the others. This test is a kind of hack where I inverted xy color coordinates using Photoshop. It was made to allow tracking easily the monitor profile used but it is not a real monitor profile.
Now about your conclusion, it's difficult to say. From the beginning you're not trying to understand the problem, you're using shortcuts to demonstrate it comes from Painter...So you do not bother about inconsistency in your logic. You tried to explain Painter didn't use color management on secondary screen when the other tests demonstrated it was used in an obvious way. You completely skipped the Photoshop problem which displayed the wrong RGB values because it is as saturated as Safari and Preview. Your main arguments are just that:
1- no one else online has an issue with Photoshop on dual screen
2- and Safari and Preview couldn't be wrong.
And as you are talking using vague and relative expressions like under/over/massively saturated it is difficult to follow you with what you are seeing especially if I need to consider the capture you took did not reflect anymore what you are seeing (even if the captures match your description).
I made an attempt with the "summing-up" image to confirm or invalidate what I understood about your description but you did not bother to reply. Perhaps the image wasn't big enough... or a better explanation in my opinion is you were so fast trying to prove it was the fault of Painter (so you could be right) that you completely skipped that. Even before I posted two images showing what you should get on each of your screens (MacBook and Dell) so you could confirm if you have a problem or not. But did you ever discussed about that? No, you didn't. If you cannot go beyond a number of words per reply, I would prefer a lot you keep for you the "thanks a million" if that allows you to pay attention about details.
Actually, I am still not sure if everything is so obvious but because you skipped details it is impossible to confirm anything. I don't know, I suppose when someone is requesting help, this person should pay attention on the replies he get more than the persons who are trying to help him, but you ignored multiple times some parts of my replies. That was only the second time I asked about your OS version I got a reply...That make everything easy on forum with deferred reply... That is why I tried to simplify my tests with such hack.
Now I have the feeling you are refusing my explanation about color management because it seems you are still looking for identical RGB values between your devices. I have no problem with that, but I would prefer you express your opinion in a more direct way. If you are really contesting these explanations, you should ask yourself about how it is possible to display the same color on different devices when for the same identical RGB value, the color displayed is different. You have two variables, RGB value and color displayed. If the color displayed cannot be modified, I let you to conclude yourself. You can also ask yourself why we are dumb using a complicated system with color management if, when it is deactivated, it provides exactly what your are looking for -> identical RGB values across devices. Or have a look at this video. It shows a wide gamut screen where I switch from sRGB mode to Adobe RGB mode...same RGB values but different colors.
I provided you a way to observe the color space of your screens, maybe you did not bother clicking on the link which could help you to understand that your Dell is really close of the sRGB color space. With this simple base, why are you still looking for the same RGB values? You proved already you understood how it works. Why it does not hurt your logic when you are seeing all the Photoshop images on Dell are using the MacBook profile? You are preferring pointing the "fact" Painter is not using color management even in front of the evidences. And when you are repeating you did not find this issue from anyone else online...that sounds a bit like "you are saying bullshit" well, I suppose you were luckier finding your Painter issue elsewhere which is why you are asking here of course.
Contrary to you, I didn't planned my conclusion. I don't care about which program is displaying the right colors. I spent some time trying to explain to you how color management works not only for you but because I could use it later as link if someone is asking for information. It is not about collecting some "thanks". You know, such thread are far to be popular and I will be thanked much more time just agreeing with someone else in a less technical discussion. The only reason I am insisting about the evidences is because the shortcuts you are using to "demonstrate" you are right can give the feeling my explanation is not reliable which means I wasted my time with this thread.
It's hard for most artists to wrap their head around even basic color management issues which is why you see very little discussion about it anywhere.
The people who do understand often don't want to waste their time pounding their head against the brick wall of the users who don't... because the frustration you see here is often the outcome.
If a user doesn't even bother to use a calibration eye before complaining of issues relating to color management then I just ignore them completely... because the journey to carry them from here to there is simply much too difficult (since they will fight you like a drowning person most of the way).
But on top of that, a dual monitor setup greatly increases the odds of perceived problems (assuming they are not the same make of monitor) -- because aside from simply understanding color spaces (which is hard enough) there are also many moving parts in color management. You have the hardware(which changes over time), the software (factoring in patches) and the OS (factoring in patches).
My advice is to just get the better monitor working properly and ignore the other when it comes to judging color... because every other monitor in the world will show your image slightly differently anyway (a fact all web designers fight with every day).
If you've been sending work to print and working with other freelancers as long as I have you just learn to build in a certain tolerance for error when it comes to color -- because short of spending $3000-$5000 on a top end Eizo monitor you will never have the hardware to really be 100% confident anyway. And even then it is partially a delusion because slight variations in paper stocks, humidity, ink impurity, and various other minor factors have an impact on what comes out.
Wow. This was not my intended outcome. Just trying to solve my problem. I apologize for upsetting you. I'm not a color profiling expert and was just basing my comments on my empirical evidence (however flawed it may have been). I'm open to all possibilities, including the issue not being Painters fault.
At any rate, thanks for all of your help.
It is a difficult subject, but looking at this thread is making me understand color management better. Not like we know everything there is about art either
I have dual (treble actually) monitors, calibrated with the Spyder3Elite (NEC, Cintiq24 and a Dell), and was having a little trouble between ps and Painter 12 (My main prob was actually the navigation window within Painter, which stupidly runs the monitor profile where the image is displayed - no the profile where the navigator is displayed - PS is smarter and doesn't do that).
After banging my head a while I found it had been my calibration choices on the Spyder rather than either PS or Painter, as they seemed to read the info different ways.
Could you please elaborate a bit on your calibration choices?
I have Spider 3 Pro and dual monitors, same brand monitors but different sizes and resolutions.
I find that the colors are different on each monitor and if there was a way for me to calibrate them so they showed colors more alike I would be a happy camper.
Windows is much simpler, there is no color management excepted where a program uses it.
On MacOS it is different, everything is color managed (excepted the icons from the dock or the desktop), from a simple file selection in the finder to any window. And when Safari needs to display untagged image using the screen native colors, it simply uses the screen profile as target.
I learned also with this thread that Grab, the tool used for screen capture on Mac has a different behavior depending of the capture mode. For selection, it doesn't embed a color profile and capture what is really displayed. But for window or screen, it embeds a color profile capturing the colors before MacOS apply the "global" color management. That could change the results.
...and MacOS is able to change the color profile on the fly without the need of restarting the program (or reloading the image) as it is needed on Windows...but it doesn't necessary work great and it can create really crazy results. Of course during normal use, no one should change the screen profile in such way.
So it is needed to be much more rigorous with this OS...and maybe it doesn't fit to a forum discussion.
Yeah, trying to find together what is happening was irritating and frustrating as I explained but that's the life. I give-up on your case and I hope you will find a way to fix your issue completely.
However at least Arshes Nei and me have learned something with your thread so no time has been wasted finally
I started teaching Photoshop and scanning to PhDs (for grant proposals) back when color management was still a new thing (in Photoshop 5)... obviously dealing with people of that level required that I knew what I was talking about -- this put quite a bit of stress on me at the time, which I see as a necessary precursor to growth.
As a result I've never really had any color management issues myself, but I have worked with dozens(maybe hundreds at this point) of artists who have... I try to keep things as simple and possible and eliminate the obvious (sometimes absurdly so) before moving onto intermediate/advanced information.
For what it's worth I also keep things simple for myself and only use 1 monitor, which I know is properly calibrated (I use a i1Display calibrator).
I learned some stuff in this thread myself and I really enjoyed particularly the Mac side of things as those are issue I haven't dealt with in many years... and you never know when that info may come in handy.
I personally enjoy reading about these types of technical issues that the majority of users take for granted because it really helps me to more fully appreciate all the hard work that goes into making the hardware/software that helps us all to create our artwork.
It's a shame that everything could not be fully resolved here, but at the same time the minute you change any part of the system (hardware/OS/software) you are working on then different issues may arise or issues may suddenly vanish.