What solution is there? Should we all leave? Should we all get a plane ticket and punch him in the dick? I don't appreciate it being implied everyone who's here is a moron if they don't get angry and leave.
Manley's experience in business constitutes of "hey I started a small business that's not so small man, it was my dream." Hmmmmm wonder why it's not perfect? Perhaps we should crucify every artist that does anything that's not art. Or we can just accept he's not going to go about things properly all the time and he might bite off too much at once. And don't forget the artist part because we all know they're crazy.
If Carl was swindled into something, that's on him for going into a business contract or whatever without asking all the questions.
Good news is that all the people who left can start their own free site where they can teach for free and do everything how they want. It's business. If they can do TAD or ca.org better, then they're going to win. If I had the choice between TAD and non-profit free TAD, I would choose the latter.
"Astronomy offers an aesthetic indulgence not duplicated in any other field. This is not an academic or hypothetical attraction and should require no apologies, for the beauty to be found in the skies has been universally appreciated for unrecorded centuries."
I´m here for quite some time... I don´t have a huge postcount, but i try to give my 2 cents whenever i can.
For the last year or so, i started to feel bad about all the "pay for the info you used to find here for free" propaganda. I understand people have to eat, it´s their knowledge and all of that. I get it.
But back when i started coming down here i fell in love by the bunch of free information about art. It was way better than my university here in Brazil. I was overwelmed! Coulden´t stop telling people this was the place to be and learn and help.
I don´t know who is right and who is wrong. I just miss those times... Now i just come to the lounge to see what is going on and leave... I try to learn somewhere else...
Edit: In light of a recent phone call, I am putting down my guns, so to speak, in hopes that this may all be resolved.
Last edited by Mock; July 1st, 2010 at 04:29 PM.
I am at loss when it comes to the people that wonders why others are stirring the cauldron, why people are concerned, why people have tried to intervene, why oh why any lowly meager people that just happens to have an account on a forum would dare to say that they do not like what has been going on. You say you have your right to not wanting to make a fuss about it, well, other people then have the right to want to go through the situation and get informed, ask questions, wonder why and take an informed stance on whether to stay at the forum or not.
Thank you, Sepulverture, for your post. It was a good one.
This place has changed dramatically. It did not happen over night, and some of the reason is that people that made this place what it was has left, and some of the reason is that because it has changed others have left. When there was the big blowout in December it had built up for quite a while, a year if not longer.
I myself left during Christmas, and the only thing I have done since is particpating in CHOW 199 and 200 because the 200th had been on my calendar for a long while. I'm posting today because I read "we recognize that members of our communities may speak their minds from time-to-time and that truthful and lawful communication must be embraced." in the joint statement thread. If it is indeed truthful, which time will tell, that's not something you can decide right here and now.
If you fail to see why people are so upset, it is because you haven't seen what has been going on in CA. That would be because suddenly posts started to disappear mysteriously, or edited without the posters knowledge, then threads disappeared, and when it all went as hot as it could get, a forum was closed, a new feedback and critic forum was made, and after people seriously and honestly tried to untangle and come with constructive criticism of this place and what they concerned about or wanted in the future, then that whole forum was deleted as well. People got banned for things they had said to other people and never posted on the forum, even for things said in private, and for posting, making threads questioning what was going on. When it turned out that PM's suddenly could get monitored and every single little sentence that might not agree a full hundred percent with Jason Manley wouldn't survive longer than a minute after he came on the board, it was enough for a lot of people. And this is just an itty tiny bit of what was going on. As mentioned earlier by Gloominati, talk to people, and you'll get some more of the background story. Even threads where people said "I am sorry, but this forum does not fit me any more, goodbye" was deleted. And then the posters were banned. Like they weren't leaving already. And now I'm only talking about what happened in CA forums. The crap didn't stop between these "walls".
I loved CA. It was a major part of my life. It made me get back into drawing. It's people has made me get through hard periodes of my life. People I've met and talked to on CA has ended up being close online friends that I've followed and talked to for years. I even cried a bit when I decided not to involve myself in it anymore. But it was also a relief, because the CA I left was not the CA I joined. The good crits in SB's and other places dwindled. There was more general yaddayadda. There was a singleminded cult-like movement going on. Where artists, the craft and the joy and hardships of it all were celebrated and embraced, it turned into a mind numbing follow the leader and put stars on whatever other people have put five stars on earlier. And where it was about helping out people that was starting out, trying to wrap their heads around this art thing, wondering if it might be something for them, people ended up getting stomped on, ridiculed, and told they didn't have a say because they had either been around for too short a time or didn't have enough skill to be paid attention to. Or they were just plain ignored.
Not only that, but people have put enormous efforts into this place. Not just posting their own art, but hours and hours and days and weeks and months and years of following up other people, paint over other people drawings to make them see where they do wrong, posting constructive critism. Or paid money. To support the site. Hell, not even always bought things, but donated. To something that looked to be a non-profit organization. This place was about getting to learn for free. Pro's helping pro's, newbies helping and supporting newbies, pro's helping newbies and every now and then even newbies helping pro's. It was an "all aboard, pull together" place. The vision back then as I remember it was to learn for free so there was a way to find out all about this art thing without necessarily have to use years and a ton of money on school and classes that might not even be exactly what you wanted it to be. And to get a standing stone for building a portefolio if that was really what you wanted.
Suddenly your hours and years spent helping other people means nothing if you're not licking someones back. Suddenly you're not worth a damn if you haven't downloaded all the videos. Suddenly you're cut off from a forum and your friends just because you're questioning what all this money that are being asked for are going to be used for since there is no trancparency. CA 4.0 someone said? As in forum upgrading? What happened to the 3.0 that we had for a short time before it disappeared? Like four or five years ago? Or is it six? Looking at the forum as it is now, apart from the new uploading manager, there is no changes since 2002. Oh, right, the thank button that's still here and the bullshit-call button that disappeared. And there's a few more forums and subforums.
Why are people disappearing? Because they gave money for something that was supposed to happened that never did. Because whenever a post or a thread was made asking for something it was deleted and asked to PM or email Jason Manley. If you got an answer you were lucky, if you got an answer that wasn't whining about all the good he's done for the world and how treacherous you were for asking something like that you were double lucky. Because every single darn little easy to answer question that sometimes even could be answered with a "yes" or a "no" would end up in long posts with paragraphs about how Jason himself has used blood, sweat and tears to build this place but happens to forget that he had an army of do gooders with him, artists and people wanting to be artists, spending not only time, but money on this site.
I don't really care what happens with CA anymore. Which is why I can post this, I guess. What I loved about this site is gone. Back when just the fact that people were progressing were something to celebrate high and loud, it was fun. This site has been a huge part of people's life. The reason they're doing what they're doing. It's their online kid. They have nurtured this place and loved seeing it grow. THAT is why people get so upset. When after all they've given they are treated like customers.When using years helping others they are told they're not helping the place. Because they can't afford to give ten bucks in the middle of the Christmas season when every one is struggling financially in the first place. When a threat that the place will go down is given. When it turns out it is all bogus. When you're starting to realise that every time an "explanation" is made, you can cut out two thirds and then still not be sure of the truth. The reason I left isn't so much Jason Manley. He never helped me personally to evolve. The spirit of this community did, however, but that spirit is no longer here, it has migrated. And I'm finding the people that's helped me throughout the years in other places. So I still have what I used to have, it's just not here. Because it was never about these brown pages that I came to love, it was never about management, it was about the users that helped. All the time and effort they used to me and others learn. And sadly, most of the ones I've learned to respect over the years are now gone. I didn't even like all their personalities at first. But I respected them as artists. And that's what we were here for. Art. For free.
"The fact that no one understands you doesn't make you an artist"
Sork's SB - Crits appreciated - not getting updated atm
C G H U B SB Thread
Facebook, please send me a message about your username
What happened to Marko and Coro and everyone else that has been slapped by the Banhammer of fail is just wrong.
These people have put endless fucking hours of sweat and tears into this community and now it's turning around and kicking them. This is an amazing place. It's OUR energy that drives it, OUR dreams, OUR passion. I had the honor of meeting Marko in Bucharest 2 years ago and he's one of the nicest people i know. He always shares, always helps and always gives you a kick in the nuts when you need it.
Coro, Marko, Carl and all the rest - my thoughts are with you guys. Art always wins.
I agree with the above poster that CA has changed, I have been a member since 2002, I'm not sure why I can't post on my old account anymore.
I can only speak for myself when I say I do detect a kind of elitist attitude to the forum in the last few years, now I find it confusing to even decipher what input is deemed valuable and what is not based on ranking systems and all this newly implemented jazz.
Either way I have not left the forum (obviously) but am not nearly as active, mostly due to my own time constraints, but I do feel differently about posting my work and giving input, perhaps the whole "celebrity" type system that seems to have been (unintentionally?) put in place is the reason for many less recognized users not feeling as beneficial to the community as before.
Last edited by ramtam; July 1st, 2010 at 04:40 PM.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
--- Frank Herbert, Dune - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
Check out my Sketchbook! Critique and Criticism welcomed.
or my Deviantart!
· or check out my: Blog
This is the most helpful thread that I've seen on CA in months. I'm not taking sides. I don't know exactly what has been happening, but I do know that I haven't liked the bannings and deletions.
I know that some people haven't been aware of the tension that has existed since December, and I think I can understand that, not having known it existed, they now think that this discussion may be an over-reaction. It's not.
I think it's very healthy, and I hope that some good may come out of an open exchange. Let's wait and see, huh?
from Marko's facebook regarding being banned>
Marko Djurdjevic: "After I just tried posting this over on Conceptart.org, I had to find out I had been secretly removed from the site"
CA has become diluted over the past few years. But isn't that what happens to almost everything that becomes popular?
CA is a tool, it's gotten a little dirty, but it still works. Artist networking, critiques, that's all you really need.
Realistically though. The alternatives to this site are at the moment non viable.
Most of the good artists have split off into smaller groups and are sharing their stuff in that smaller community. Which means the bigger sites get the proverbial tablescraps.
So pumping another site up to be as big as this site will be nearly impossible.
So, thinking logically, if the problem is management, get new management?
Or merge cghub and ca and let them take over the pre existing forums?
There will still be a larger base of users in a site take over, then there would in a mass exodus.
Because it's shamefull what has been done to the very talented people, but they have viable alternatives, it's the middle and lower regions of this forum, in my opinion, who don't.
On the whole, human beings want to be good, but not too good, and not quite all the time.
- George Orwell
By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
- Richard Dawkins
It still gives you the ability to view emails, older posts and whatnot, that may be why you're still able to see them as 'active'.
If you don't like what you see being done with your money, then don't support it anymore. But I don't think that dropping 20 bucks in a paypal account entitles you to anything...or 1000.00 for that matter, really.
Right to be angry, no doubt. But I think the prodding for answers that everyone seems to be doing is only hurting the other positive aspects in the community. And there are people, of course, that didn't donate jack shit but they still want to jump on the cause of it all.
But I've already spoken my piece on that in another thread. Carry on.
come on, this is all really simple. and it all boils down to one thing.
the words that have up till now been used did not = the actions that were taken in all the cases causing tension.
this frustrating tension led to mistrust, speculation, misgivings, anger and ill will.
Statements accurate, promises fulfilled, guarantees honored deadlines met, All of this need to be airtight from now on given the apparent sloppy track record seen here over the last year or so if the management is to regain peoples trust.
If the promises match the goods everytime, I think we can all agree most of this drama can be put to rest, there will be less need for banning and things can get better here.
I love this community. Even though I can see everything is fucked. I know it's bad when basically all of the names I associate with CA have been banned. I just assumed it was a petty contract dispute. I really wish I hadn't read every single post, but I did. Now I understand why this community has lost some of it's motivation. Every time I come to the lounge it's just to break from my drawings. Drawings I never bother to post. This has become a place to hang out with artists I can relate to rather than posting and critiquing art like I used to. TAD looks interesting, the instructors are experienced and talented but very few of them are from the community. None of them have cut their teeth in a Thunder Dome. CA was meant to be a DIY art school where fellow artists can teach eachother. Now it's being pushed as preschool for TAD. After reading this thread I plan on spending much more time in the critique center than the lounge. If anybody has a problem with the community being less helpful, then I suggest you do the same.
I'm not sayin anything about the actual issue, just requesting we continue the good things for the sake of new artists everywhere
I've only been visiting for a couple years, but I've grown to love it. Recently I've really started to make a push to become a professional, largely thanks to this site. To see a divisive issue like this is really sad [edit the sap out].
I don't know what I'd do without it exactly. I was thinking of quitting my college art program and just hanging out here, drawing every day to work toward my goal. If anyone else is like me and doesn't have a stream of income or a good portfolio yet or whatever, please give it some thought before leaving. There are thousands of new artists who still need this, need it bad. It makes the impossible seem possible. Maybe as the dust settles the best solution will be to leave, but we need to keep the spirit of CA going. Art for art's sake, learning for learning's sake. For now, we should push to give as much value as we can to the PEOPLE of this place where we meet.
This is my request, from an art youngling. Other solutions would work too, but the power of a free art community shouldn't be lost. Best wishes everyone.
Last edited by ErikHolfelder; July 1st, 2010 at 07:55 PM.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa!!!!!!!!!!
Everybody calm down and for god's sake STOP CAPITALIZING EVERYTHING.
Look. Obviously, some of us have had an argument. Now I like to gossip as much as the next moron, but come on this is getting to be downright damaging to people. It is not fair to the innocent bystanders who are getting mowed down in this verbal drive-by.
The statement that president Hatala of MassiveBlack has made is the truth. If you haven't read it, please do so.
As far as TAD goes, it has some major talent and serious players involved who are setting up something that is truly going to be world class. It should be obvious to anyone. I truly believe that they are doing something that will make a difference in peoples lives. If anything I have done or said has lead anyone to believe something to the contrary, I would like to set that straight right now. They truly are doing amazing things. Yes, I did resign over some personal issues that have been resolved (which for all you gossip hounds is none of your business). I did not realize that this would have such immense repercussions. So I would like to rectify that.
I will be working with TAD starting on day one. The folks that they have gathered together are amazing in the caliber of their art and their ability to teach these skills to others. The students attending should have nothing to worry about. I look forward to working with them.
To the community at large, I am going to swallow a bit of pride and make my apology. I did not mean to start this kind of drama.
I wish there was a :Hug: button because it's nice to see you again Carl. I don't really want to get into the other politics right now as stated many times, it isn't really my business. I have enough of trying to figure out what to do with VB's (that's VBulletin, not Visual Basic for you guys) bugs
Last edited by Arshes Nei; July 1st, 2010 at 06:30 PM.
So carl, I have a few perspective questions...
please guys, out of respect for everybody here, all this needs to stop. i didnt want to cause any sort of drama here. i deeply apologize to CA, the students of TAD, and the illustration academy for any drama my statments have caused.
jason and the illustration academy are indeed trying to do a great thing here, and i know they will do an amazing job. sometimes things dont go smoothly, but in the end we are all adults here and can all sit down and solve our differences.
speculation and internet witch hunts wont help anything. please please understand this.
lets please just chill out and take a breath for a second, can we?.
I will be instructing at the SF pod on a regular basis. Yes.
for clearity let me put it here this refers to any one starting a non profit
It Ain't Yours
Founders of any type of business, for profit or nonprofit, tend to regard the venture as their "baby." Unfortunately, the very definition of a nonprofit corporation makes that impossible. By law, a nonprofit is owned by, and operated for the benefit of, the public. No individual can be in charge of or receive any personal benefit from a nonprofit, beyond the power and reasonable salary granted by the board of directors. This is why nonprofits require a board of directors and state and federal laws are cracking down on every appearance of impropriety with nonprofit organizations.
, hopefully you can understand what this means , that an npo is made for the public ,wich is why thay get a tax break , essentaly one one starts up , thay are responsable to the public , just like corps are responsable to their share holders . i know it takes a special kinda person to put forthe the effort to keep npos going , and understand the hard work involved for somethign thay dont own , but its exactly that .the public even goes byond the contributors to this site .
things seem to have started when people started asking some very basic easy questions , that any npo like this should be able to answer . many people were banned for this , this then snowballed into an atmosphere of conflict . it seems from the orginal questions about structure oginasation and funding , bannings took place , and from those bannings more bad feeligns grow , and more conflict . most if not all conflict here was about either money , or banningins <wich orginaly came due to questions about money>
on the money side of things as an npo this should never have been a problum , as npos are required by law to give up the financial information in the 990 form . to the public with out any question as to why thay would want it .
from the irs
importantly is the last bit
These changes should improve the ability of donors to quickly obtain these financial documents. CBBB's Philanthropic Advisory Service encourages donors to seek out such information in order to make more informed giving decisions.
there were other problums that croped up , and the real issue with them was not the problum it self but how it was handled , artists beign a open bunch for the most part , were not happy to see frends and colegues banned for being open about things . every person that got banned , got banned for you , try and rember that . every person asking why people were banned or threads were deleted are askign for you , and every one in the comunity , thay ask now so later thay dont have to ask why were you banned , or why your thread was deleted . you should thank every one of them .
Last edited by liam.c; July 1st, 2010 at 06:43 PM.