I think certain mods have: a) a thin skin and, b) an itchy trigger finger re bans.
That is all.
I think certain mods have: a) a thin skin and, b) an itchy trigger finger re bans.
That is all.
This is not your house. While you're welcome to make yourself comfy, you better know whether or not if it's alright to put your feet up on someone's couch.
Also, sorry. - @kev.
No I understand the concern, but this isn't CA's post (re OP post) and it doesn't reflect the views of CA either - ie as a whole. I could change the title as you requested earlier but I don't want to set it where we're some news organization. The Lounge is not.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; June 6th, 2010 at 03:52 AM.
Wether they killed 100 people or just one person is not the issue here. The fact that they killed and continue to kill innocent people without any sort of retribution visited upon them is what is so exasperating.
As for the link I googled the incident and this was the first thing to pop on google. And knowing how much people on the internet love to have links to click on I added it to the OP.
Don't try to pass of this bullox that they were trying to protect themselves....They could have done the exact same stupid boarding party manouver in their own waters and the international community would have lapped it up as self defense. BUT they decided to fly in the face of God know's how many years of International maritime law, point the 'F' finger at everyone else and tell 'em to frack of we can do what ever we want and you can't do anything about it.
Just once I'd like to see people who defend Israel stop and think what the creation of Israel actually cost the region and what it gave back. Apart from another base where the US can launch it's precious crusades from.
It's not about religion, it's not about the Jews and it's certainly not about Jerusalem being owned by one entity or the other. It's about a select group of people (whom I'm ashamed to call people) from all sides of the conflict mind you deciding that we have to suffer for their own ends.
You're telling me that the Jews couldn't have just immigrated and become part of Palestine and it's government and saved millions of lives from pain and suffering?
Why should someone suffer so that the other person may live? The fact that you accept this as truth shows how fracked up your ideoligies are.
You accept destruction of peopl'es homes and lives in the same nonchalant way you accept that your refrigerator needs to be resupplied every week.
It's pathetic disgusting and inhumane.
But you go on believing what you need to belive you cowards.
I really REALLY tried to avoid commenting on this thread,since it's a very volitile subject, but Brashen - REALLY???
before the declaration of independence to Israel, the region was under a British occupation. there was no palestinian "government". the area was called and reffered to as Palestine but never had an independed and orginised ruling system (apart from the british rule, which laid the foundation to fecilities and rules still used in Israel) or had been recognized or even talked of as a "country", since it was part of the former uthman empire.
you keep saying that this is not a matter of religion but keep refering to Israelies as Jews, just something you should concider.
it's obviouse you have strong feelings againts Israel, and that's your right. you wanted to open a discution of the very shitty situation of last week's events, but end up talking about israel's right to even exist..
from what i gather, it was a situation where everybody was right from their own point of view, and both sides were terribly wrong in the actions they have taken. people got killed in a cock fight.
But, Brashen, being that you're so concerned with the intricacies of International Law, tell me a) what provision of International Law justified the "peace activists'" use of deadly force on the boarding party of a sovereign nation, and b)what provision of International Law allows the ruling entity of Gaza, Hamas, to fire Katyusha rockets at women, children, and other civilians?
But Noah, what the hell was England doing there? And what was there before?
So far as these political topics, I enjoy hearing different views, seeing what the arguments are, and any new information I can get. Elam's been a strong voice around here. I've often disagreed with him, and been public about it. But, for all the arguing here in the lounge, I don't think he's done anything worth banning. For one thing, he brings a lot of knowledge to the table. If he's reading this, he may cringe to hear it, but to me, his greatest fault is getting too close to the issues, too emotional, to the point where he doesn't even consider a solution, only who to blame, and then starting the justification game for everything his side does next.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but to me it seems like there is no high ground in this debate, on either side.
However, talking with some admin, I've learned Elam's also sent some really rude pm's to them, which is just stupid. The admin work like hell here for us, giving us the best site on the net, and for free. They work for free, we get the benefit for free. So, who in their right mind would ever disrespect them? I completely agree with a ban for that, and I hear it's just temporary.
Elam should come back, apologize to admin, refrain from the occasional sexist comments, and finally start a sketchbook. Then he can talk all the politics he wants.
All media is biased, and unless you were magically flying over the incident, not to mention inside everyone's heads, you DON'T know what the "truth" is. Anything that comes to you is biased as it comes through the media filter. Conspiracy theorists have their own version, but so does the "international media", of which you are obviously on the side of and which has its own bias.
So far all we think we know has come from Israel's hands, since they are in control of all the devices and people involved.
So to say that someone is "false" and that you know the "truth" is not only grossly overconfident, it also makes you sound really ignorant.
Last edited by RyerOrdStar; June 6th, 2010 at 04:44 PM.
Trying to claim one state government has clean hands in this whole affair is like pulling two pigs from the sty and pretending one isn't covered in filth. If you're Israeli, then you're considered fair game for the militant groups.
If you're Palestinian, you get beaten by IDF troops at checkpoints and perhaps killed whenever Israel decides to hit back. And all that is regardless if you're a peace loving Israeli, Palestinian or whatever.
None of it is going away any time soon.
Israel's attack on six ship flotilla to Gaza kills 20
True? or False?
Israeli Navy personnel rappelled onto the deck of the ship in question from a helicopter.
True? or False?
Upon reaching the deck of the ship in question, the Israeli sailors were attacked by "peace activists" with sticks and metal rods.
True? or False?
Upon reaching the deck of the ship in question, one of the Israeli sailors was bodily thrown off the upper deck by "peace activists."
True? or False?
If I were to strike you in the skull and face vigorously with a metal rod numerous times, in most Western democracies my conduct would be considered to be some species of "assault with a deadly weapon" or "attempted murder."
True? or False?
If I drove my car into Canada or Mexico from the U.S. and responded to the border authorities' request to inspect my car by striking them about the head and shoulders with a metal rod, wooden baton, or big giant Jason Vorhees type butcher knife, I would probably be shot dead in my tracks.
True? or False?
There are situations where it is perfectly reasonable to strike a nation's naval personnel in the skull and face with metal pipe in response to their attempt to enforce a blockade.
True? or False?
The country where Brashen is from, Lebanon, does not recognize the existence of the State Of Israel.
True? or False?
The European/International media is generally biased against Israel in its coverage.
True? or False?
Over 20 UN member nations do not recognize the existence of the State Of Israel.
True? or False?
Five ships of the six ship flotilla were peacefully diverted to an Israeli controlled port for search-- they were not "attacked."
True? or False?
Hamas does not recognize the right of Israel to exist.
True? or False?
Israel has a right to exist.
True? or False?
I don't know But then I'm not in here arguing that I know the truth, nor telling other people that they're wrong.
On a related note, the fact that your last question asks me to give an absolute answer like "Truth" to such a question makes me doubt your sanity. Do you think if there was a True or False to that question people would still be arguing about it decades after?
I would suggest you brush up on the philosophy of truth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistem...ories_of_truth
There is something very wrong with shooting protestors and i am not alone in thinking so.
Ironically, my posting here, involves my own response to "media bias." This has a few different dimensions depending upon where you're coming from.
My interest in "truth" is simple-- not some all knowing Platonic construct. Reymus tried to pigeon-hole me as an IDF supporter. I rejected this and indicated that my interest was in the truth-- meaning the truth of the matter at hand. I see much of what is put forth as truth, here, as in the objectionable headline re Israel's "attack," as agenda driven and not in support of the truth behind the matter at hand.
Though the facts may change, the evidence as put forward by the media, so far, does not reflect kindly on the "peace activists."
Re the right of Israel to exist: you might really want to take a very hard look at the point of view you appear to be espousing--seriously.
Anyway, good exchange. I'm off to view your link.
You want truth...here is simple truth:
Israel does not have a right to exist over the bodies and homes of the Palestinians.
People have the right to coexist with each other.
Israel's government is as racist, tyrannical, oppressive, destructive and inhumane as Hitler's was before them.
Yes Lebanon is at war with Israel. If you even have to ask why then you're a bonobo!!
You want more truth? Here it is nice and simple for you to see and understand:
Last edited by Brashen; June 7th, 2010 at 07:34 AM.
Brashen, I'd take a chill pill if I were you.
Also another warning, go around a ban, it becomes permanent. Don't use sockpuppet accounts.
If you come here for 2 years and all you want to do is start arguments in the lounge, there is no reason to be here. There are plenty of other political sites to start arguments on. The lounge is a kickback place for people interested in creating art. I already posted "how do I get banned". Elam was given 2 years to figure this out. When he was kicked out of the lounge at one point to encourage him to use other parts of the site more, he gave a rude reply. He has directly been insulting to moderators within threads when asked to chill and continue. That's being disruptive. I know people here will have strong opinions in the Lounge (and about everywhere else) but at the very least try to contribute to the site (it doesn't just have to be a sketchbook, HELP OTHERS OUT with critiques, software problems and other art problems and so forth), not be a headache to moderators. If you can't figure that out after 2 years then yes, a temp ban was fair.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; June 7th, 2010 at 08:53 AM.
Well...maintaining one of the biggest ghettos in the world dosen't help Israel at all Ivory.
Kamber, It wasn't trying to pigeon-hole you but people have to approach this raid and most Israel-Palestine clashes with as much objectivity as they can.
Though clearly there were Islamic fundamentalists on board, I know since they're the same nutjobs that us secular Turks have been pushing against for decades, and this is pretty much what you can expect from them, getting on the aid ship and hoping for a fight, and causing innocent people to be killed.
That said, you can't denounce the activists on one hand and support Israel's Gaza policy on the other. Palestinians don't have access to basic medicine that you and I take for granted, not that it's not being delivered, but the Israeli authorities ban the most ludicrous stuff from entering Gaza. Seriously they fuckin' banned Elmo, ELMO.
So Israel assuredly has a right to exist, as any country does, but it does not have a right to keep more than a million in what amounts to the world's biggest crack house (without the crack).
My apologies Arshes Nei I won't say anything more on the matter further than explaining my statement:
Racism: Israel has over 200 Jewish only settlements.
Tyrannical: The Israeli government controls the media and won't allow opposition to be aired.
The rest you can figure it out for yourselves. That's it I won't be taking this further as I've said my peace.
If I was an "unfit" mod I'd have banned you first since I don't agree with your belief/opinion. The fact is, I was more along Elam's side of thinking (sans the Islamic conspiracy)...but...he was also being extremely disruptive (for a long time). This shouldn't be "Oh that's just Elam" we shouldn't encourage a whole site to act that way. Especially if you're not contributing to other parts of the site.
The other thing is, do you think it's fun as a moderator to see these threads, already know it's going to be this constant cycle, but be in the damned if we do, damned if we don't situation?
Lock/delete the thread on sight - OMG OPPRESSIVE CENSORSHIP.
Don't do anything - what kind of site is this, people coming off hating each other as users.
Letting weapons and other support to go in doesn't do much except make the people (who have declared very clearly their goals) get stronger (which would just mean more and stronger attacks).
Ok, i guess this is the history part of the thread?Racism: Israel has over 200 Jewish only settlements.
Basically, Israel is for Jews (that is why it exists). After the holocaust, it was finally decided that the jews could have a place to be free from a LONG history of persecution (again, people keep trying to kill them, they just want to survive).
In order to keep it a Jewish "haven" from the rest of the world, they need to make sure it isn't taken over by more peaceful means (which has actually happened in history, the romans used breeding and teaching as a way of truly taking over a place). So, Jewish state is for Jews.
Maybe in America where we are all free and live together holding hands and working side by side it seems strange to you (but, then again, the Jews were a nice part of Germany for a long time before it was decided to get rid of them).
I don't really know much about this? What opposition? Hamas commercials? lolTyrannical: The Israeli government controls the media and won't allow opposition to be aired.
You know the American government controls what the media can do also.....right?
Oh, but you are still missing some important things.The rest you can figure it out for yourselves. That's it I won't be taking this further as I've said my peace.
You see, it seems you don't quite understand about history.
Defending yourself isn't really equal to extermination. If someone runs at you with a knife... it is reasonable to try and stop them (or take their knife away). If they scream at you "I'm going to kill you!!!!" and start walking over to a table full of knives...well... the smart thing to do is to maybe stop them before they do that (blockadeeee).
Now, it seems you don't really understand what the holocaust was about. It was about "purifying" the germans of whatever they felt didn't fit (actually it was an attempt to rally the country around a scapegoat for their problems, but you get the idea). Not by asking them to leave, but by killing them.
Oh, but wait, they didn't just kill them. They actually did a lot more. Like "science".
You see, what was done during the holocaust (and actually a lot of other times throughout history) was done out of hate and designed to make the people suffer (not just kill, no, they needed to suffer).
What is being done in the Gaza strip is not out of hate... it isn't because Israel feels the people need to suffer for who they are... it is simply to try and make them put down their weapons.
There are no death squads, gas chambers, beatings and torture, sick experiments, mass graves, humiliation and other countless ways to make people suffer being done by Israel.
You either have
A) a huge lack of knowledge about the holocaust
B) a huge lack of knowledge about what is happening now
Trying to compare what is happening in the Gaza strip and Israel to Nazi germany is just laughably ignorant.
Edit: nevermind I found link on citizenship...non jews can become citizens (but it is harder).
As for your accusations...
There are no "Jewish only" or "Arabic only" ordinances here. There are predominantly Jewish settlements and cities, predominantly Arabic ones, mixed ones (like Jerusalem which has Jewish and Arabic districts or Haifa which is intermixed). You don't notice me wailing about the existence of purely Arabic towns or the support they get from the government or whatnot.
Those of the Arabs who had stayed in the country after the Declaration of Independence in 1948, were given citizenships. They are not discriminated against. In fact, they are better off in certain ways than the Jews: for Jews the army service is mandatory, for the Arabs it is opt-in. Most Moslems do not serve, but Druzes and some others usually volunteer.
As for the opposition not allowed to be aired... riiiiight, that's exactly why we have members of Parliament who openly oppose the existence of the country whose Parliament they are in and which pays their salaries and expenses. One of those, Zuabi, had ridden on that Turkish ship with militants, actually. And Israel stifles the opposition so terribly, there are openly anti-Israeli sentiments in several universities promoted by tenured professors.
Actually, the media here have been predominantly left-wing for years and years - you won't believe the amount of bashing the IDF gets in Israeli media. It took twenty years of trying to reason with HAMAS and FATAH for the media to finally get more realistic and not all ga ga about every mention of "peace now".
And Israel is so cruel, they supply Gaza with water, most of its electricity, food, let the UN humanitarian aid through without fail when it goes through standard procedure, treat the Gaza citizens in Israeli hospitals...
Speaking of which, HAMAS still has not let the aid cargo delivered by that ill-fated flotilla into Gaza. It's been unloaded in Ashdod, inspected, and let through, with exception of the gas masks and body armor - and the militants - but HAMAS refuses to accept it. Wonder why.
From the political hoopla surrounding this whole incident, especially Turkey's prime minister's attitude, and from the facts like the presence of trained Turkish militants on board the Blue Marmara, this looks more and more like a provocation staged by Turkey's current Islamist government to justify breaking the remaining ties with Israel. This isn't about Gaza or the plight of its residents at all - they aren't starving. This is about an excuse to steer Turkey's politics toward Iran.
Last edited by arenhaus; June 7th, 2010 at 11:17 AM.
Brashen, you won't remember the start of the civil war in your country. As a teenager I was quite shocked as Lebanon had it all then, good friends with Israel, the rest of the Middle East It produced most of the television for the area and it's farming was legendary. It was a shining example of how people of all religions could live together and then it went so horribly wrong. Rediscover that past, try to rebuild it and encourage others to do so. You could, we could, everyone could live together if we didn't have hate shoved down our throats all the time. Take a step back, read, rediscover your past and think of what was and what could be again.
I'll be honest, I am "unwilling and unable" to buy the line that any criticism of Israel is intended to lead to more holocausts. I think that sounds more like propaganda than the flotilla story does.
I don't think he could cram any more tear-jerker buzzwords into that paragraph if he tried.The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, six million — that number again — hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized, and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists — Iranian in particular — openly prepare a more final solution.
If preventing the destruction of your country is illegal, than Israel is breaking the law. But it isn't, so they aren't.
Since you are advocating that Israel not defend itself, you are actually advocating for their destruction. This is not tough to understand. Its simple. I'll repeat it: If you won't allow Israel to defend itself, you are advocating for its destruction whether you realize it or not.
Saying "uh-uh, no I ain't... criticism of Israel is my right..." doesn't cut it. Israel is under existential threat, plain and simple. And the disgusting anti-semitism that seems to be proliferating due to leftist hatreds and arab xenophobia and Dar Al Harb/Dar Al Islam religious dogma is making every decision critical.
I notice that none of the "give Israel back to the palestinians" posters EVER advocate that massive amount of property stolen from Jews, Christians, Coptics, Zoroastrians, Hindis across the muslim world be given back. Why is that?
Its either ignorance of history, or anti-semitism as I see it.
At least Icarus tried!
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Actually I know the regions history quite well (for I do Live in it) and I'm well versed with the Jewish people's suffering thank you very much. You may recall that Phillip IV the king of France during the crusades had a lot of Jewish homes and estates confiscated so that he may pay for his war against Burgundy. Perhaps the Palestinians and the countries around the State of Israel should pay for that as well?
To make things a bit clearer for you, you who believes I should bow and accept my fate to be living in a country that Israel sees as volatile due to having a resistance force that fought to have it's lands freed.
Yes Hizbollah was the one to free the southern most sectors of Lebanon that were occupied illegally by Israel since 1982.
Back to the subject at hand, you talk about the holocaust and you talk about the mistreatment of the Jewish people through out history. Not once were Arabs or their descendants ever accused of mistreating Jews on a large scale. Mohamed said to his soldiers during the 'Openings' " Do not harm any Christian or Jew for they are people of the Book" I'm a Catholic and even I know this. In any case the Jews were mistreated as you say and as history shows by mostly the western world. So the West decided to make up for their mistakes by agreeing and signing the 'Promise of Belfour' the creation of a Jewish state. Now there were 2 places where they were told the could set up shop Argentina..(go figure) and Palestine. Palestine at that time was not under British mandate as you seem to think. The British were given the mandate over Palestine by the San Remo Conference in 1920. THREE years after the Declaration of Belfour.
The Palestinians obviously objected to being thrown out of their homes and their land. The resulting establishment of the Israel state caused over 1 million people to become refugees.
You say I have to be angry at the PLO and the Palestinians for messing up my country....Who forced the Palestinians off their lands and had a huge exodus of more than a million refugees spread across it's neighbors? Israel.
So in result the whole region had to pay for crimes that were never committed by them in the first place. A scape goat if you will. That is the Western legacy to the middle eastern nations.
Black Spot: I know my country's history very well thank you very much. My Dad and Mom lived through the Civil war. Why is it that the west possesses this arrogance that they can lecture people about their own history. It's nothing you said Black Spot but Let me tell you something about Lebanon before all of this Hulabaloo. Yes true it was the Jewel of the middle eastern nations but that's because your western history books don't show you the whole truth because it may seem to painful for your eyes. Beirut was the only city that prospered because of the banks and the entertainment centers that it possessed and the rest of the country was in poverty. A rich few controlling the interests of a a multitude of Arab nations during the Oil discovery in the gulf. If you want to know more I suggest you read the Black Swan.
Back to you Ivory as I'm not quite done lecturing you.
Where were we..ah yes we've established the Jewish state and you were talking about self defense weren't you?
Let's reiterate the definition of defense shall we?
The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury
Now you said that Israel is trying to protect itself right? But shouldn't the Palestinians and the Lebanese and the Syrians do the same if they were attacked? Or are we not allowed to? Was there some new Declaration signed somewhere in secret that states that Israel and no other in the region can defend it's self? No? I didn't think so. So no thank and a fuck you to you I won't be laying down my weapons anytime soon until Israel's government is made to pay for the war crimes it's committed. I want a whole new set of Nuremberg trials for Israel. When Israel has made remittance to those who have suffered in it's creation then you may start talking about peace negotiations.
Lets talk about these War crimes that Israel has committed. Shall we list them? Of course we shall for your truth seeking eyes Ivory and the rest of the gang. Let me remind you that Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.
These are quotes from various news sites:
Last week Ha'aretz published the testimonies of Israeli soldiers who alleged that a sniper shot a Palestinian mother and her two children, and that a company commander ordered an elderly woman to be killed.
Yesterday Physicians for Human Rights accused soldiers of ignoring the special protection that Palestinian medical teams are entitled to receive.Today the Guardian releases three films in which our reporter Clancy Chassay reveals evidence that Israel used drones to fire at civilian targets, killing at least 48; he interviews three Palestinian youths used by Israeli soldiers as human shields and alleges that soldiers targeted paramedics and hospitals.
Currently there are approximately 380 Palestinian children in Israeli custody, many of whom are awaiting trial or sentence, and others who are serving lengthy periods of imprisonment for such minor offences as stone throwing.
Enough of the words let's see some pictures!!
These were all taken during the Lebanese Israeli Conflict in 2006 which I lived through. This is the extent of Israeli peace. And I'll be damned if I'm going to just sit there and let you lecture me about my history and what I and countless others before me have had to suffer. So you can take your high school history book spouting, smug look bearing face back to browsing for porn on the internet.
I'm only resisting appealing to Godwin's Law with an effort; that's how ridiculous that argument is.