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Last edited by johnfields; March 10th, 2007 at 10:27 AM. Reason: unwelcome comments
Not many professional artists (in my experience) respect Poser, or poser "artwork". In most cases, it tends to be the equivalent to cutting out pieces of other people's work and pasting it into a scene. Maybe you could give us some more details about what specific parts you're responsible for. As an example, did you model that Ed 209 robot, or is this art theft? What about the ships in the background?-they look familiar
I'm not trying to be a dick, but if you want to work in 3d, you'd best be served by making your own models. -both for practical learning purposes, and artistic credibility. If you're just a hobbyist and just having some fun, then I suggest taking it to a poser specific forum.
Sorry if I've been harsh, but if I didn't say this stuff, someone else would have stepped in and done so.
Amazing, you ended up being one anyway.Originally Posted by SubPablo
I'm one of those hobbyists, but I have to admit, I can see where he's coming from. When you're looking at a CG work, it's difficult to tell who's really responsible for the result, and whether it's the realization of a vision through the producers' own effort, or just a pastiche of pretty elements thrown into a composition with hit-or-miss aesthetics.
But imagine if you were working in a medium where your brushes and pens and pencils couldn't be applied, and the tools that you had to rely on were other works of art, works that you either can't or won't take the time to master yourself. And some of those works were only incidentally art created by technicians and craftsmen.
I'll also admit that it's not even a collaborative 'art' like film likes to believe it is, many who want to create works in CG don't even get involved in a team, they simply have to wait to snatch up for free or purchase brushes that will leave the strokes that match their vision.
And of course others can ham-handedly mash together whatever is in reach and defy probability by producing something of aesthetic value. You can't hardly tell the difference sometimes, which is why it's important for the original poster to declare what of the work he's responsible for, and give credit where the credit is due.
Funny, I am willing to bet that you didnt make the puter and all components you use...I am willing to bet you didnt write the program you use either. yet I doubt anyone would say you arent entitled to claim credit when you make something on your puter.Originally Posted by SubPablo
with that said, I will note, yes, I am a professional artist, yes I have a few awards under my belt, yes I use poser along with a multitude of other programs.
and Until one of the "elitists" tell me and prove to me they make every single item they use from scratch be it a puter, a pen, a sable haired brush or grow the very wood their paper is made from I will stand on the point that art is not made by a program but by a person. by imagination, by creativity and most of all by their passion. And that the tool used is just that a tool.
so while you didnt wish to sound like a "dick" you have most eloquently shown how very apt you are at being one.
Oh and poser is used more often then you would think.
I think the problem he is refering too is someone buying poser, downloading some character meshes, sticking them in a scene he also downloaded off daz3d, and calling it art.
Poser is a tool like any other. But some people think that posing off the shelf components automatically makes them a artist.
I was pretty sure I'd rile a few feathers here, but I felt what I had to say held enough useful advice to make it worth posting.
The fact is, I see a lot of work like this online, and in demo reels from applicants looking to get into the game industry. It's always really depressing to see someone fool themselves into thinking they've got a chance at our studio showing poser work like this. It really shows that they don't know thing one about creating 3d work. -I'm not saying this is you, this is explaining my mindset towards programs like Poser, and Bryce.
I'm sorry you felt you needed to delete your post (Reason: unwelcome comments), but having 96 posts to your name, you've obviously been around for awhile, so you should know by now that you shouldn't start a thread on CA if you're not prepared to get comments, either good or bad. I know it sucks to post something and not get the comments you were hoping for, but one critical comment is usually worth 10 standard asspats you might see on other forums. That's what makes CA stand out -If you want to improve your art, post on CA. If you want to improve your ego, post on Deviant Art. Incidentally, a great place to get a good critique on 3d work is http://polycount.com/
I feel what I said was honest feedback, from a professional game artist's point of view. Poser is just a tool of course, but as far as 3d goes, it tends to be the equivalent of 3d clipart. If you're serious about learning 3d, I suggest grabbing a free trial of 3dsMax, or the free stripped down version GMAX, and giving that a shot. If not, by all means don't let me ruin your fun with poser, but it will most likely place it's own limitations on your work.
Bathoy: That seems to be a recurring theme with me
DarkElegance: You sound like you're trying to defend the idea of art theft. By your rationale, since I didn't make my computer and software myself, I should be entitled to cut and paste other people's art together and call it my own? I think you're confusing the tool with the product. There's a difference between using premade tools to make art, and using premade art to make art. I suggest posing this question in the General Discussion section. It'd be interesting to see more people's views on this.
I do not think you commented his picture. You asked him if he modeled that robot or if it was theft, completely ruling out that he may bought it, or downloaded it as freestuff somewhere, which is not unusual in the poser community. Do you know that robot and have ANY proof or evidence that he actually STEAL it? I have a lot of stuff for poser on my hard disk, paying money for most of it and got the rest for free legaly. Do you call me a thief, Jeremy Miller?
The homepage of conceptart.org does not say this place is for professionals only, but for artists. Have you to model everything by your own to qualify as artist? So an artist would not buy, for example, plants and trees as meshes for the background, but model that by himself? Would not use premade textures, but make them by himself?
By the way, gmax is IMHO licensed only for making stuff for games which support gmax. While it is possible to export stuff and use it otherwise doing so would not be perfectly legal. Correct me, if I say something wrong here. Suggesting free modelers like Wings or cheap ones like Silo would probably better.
Some people use poser als 3d clipart. Does that mean that is not art? There are some pictures in our art museum here in town wich are simply assembled stuff, glued and stitched together as some kind of picture. That is not art? You should have told them, they payed money for that, and you have to pay to see it.
I have not seen the picture, i cannot say if it was art or not. From you "critique" I just know he was using poser and had a robot inside. Im my intention, art has more to do with expression and intention than with tools.
Probably you are skilled, otherwise you would not be that arrogant. In my opinion, your comment was not helpfull in any way.
Last edited by Uwe_Schmidt; March 12th, 2007 at 11:08 AM.
For the many communities as I frequent, it's sad to see Poser users get their hand slapped or have others back them up. They are so shunned that they have to share their ideas/work with only "their kind".
I would hate to think that I would have to give birth to my own models before being considered a true portrait photographer, or build a barn and mountain to be considered a true landscape photographer. That's all Poser is.. it's a "model in a box" program. I personally use it to set-up light sources, rough poses with alternate camera views... it helps me greatly in what it is that I want to do in painting and/or drawing. Plus, an excellent proggie to do animatics.
Don't be embarrassed of using Poser. If you find a use for it, go for it.
This isn't a strike against you at all. You see things wrong with the use of Poser and I can understand that. Soooo many "professionals" say the same identicle thing, whether it be elitist OR because of factual incidents due to peoples misuse of the proggie. But, John only stated in his original post on how he underestimated Poser, and that was pretty much it. A very vague post with a picture, which the most important reply to his post/topic should have been, "how did you underestimate it?"
I'm curious on how John benefits from this. Maybe his upcoming reply can have others understand its uses besides what so many are familiar with through the DAZ/Poser Pro/Renderosity world. I would like new insight on the uses of Poser from such a person as John.
I don't consider what John had posted as being "art theft" or similar. Because he used models from elsewhere and didn't credit them don't mean a thing. It was a simple pic with a vague description. That's all. If he was a photographer who shot a child wearing Levi's for a Sears catalogue (which don't credit the models), is the photographer a theft? And of course... this can go on forever with the pointless and neverending "what's art" debate.
The Other White Meat
Do you know that by experience or by divine intervention? How many poser users do you know?
Your sig say you are admin here, is that the site policy that poser users should not taken seriously?
I mean, Manifestant and DarkElegance said they are using Poser. Are they Poseurs as well?
Last edited by Uwe_Schmidt; March 12th, 2007 at 11:46 AM.
The poser thing is always a hot topic. Whoever made the statement that you have to invent software and build a comupter in order to claim cg art as your own, frankly dude, I don't widdle my own pencils, but I don't credit the
3M corp. for my handdrawn stuff either. Poser is a program designed to claim other's artwork as yours in a mix bag. But users will defend it viciously, sort of like how alcoholics say they don't have a problem. I have seen some nice poser pics, but I don't understand why you don't just learn Maya, ZBrush, or 3DSM, and then it would all be your work, and can be judged as such. And don't complain about the price, If you wanna do 3D it's worth it, if your a hobbyist then Poser is a fine form of drag and drop art.
Prophet, I make my living as a computer admin. I have three children and a wife at home. I started 3d when I was 35. I cannot afford maya, I do have Cinema 4d SE for modeling. I use poser a lot and render mostly with Vue or Posers own renderer. Considering the time I can spend on my hobby, modelling everything is not an option for me.
So no, I am no professional. No, I am not selling my artwork, although I could legally do so, because I bought most of the stuff that I have. What is wrong about that?
Well there are alternatives to buying Maya, I'm not advocating it, but it's out there and very easy to find. And, I don't mean to offend, but from my perspective, where's the fun in drag & drop as opposed to modelling it yourself. I just don't get that. It's like using filters in photoshop, anyone who knows what to look for will spot and griamce an obvious filter, because it's never as unique as if you did it yourself. That's my point
BTW, I am a sculptor/comic artist, so my whole persepctive of relying on any computer program for artwork is a bit more harsh than most. Not anti, just very picky.
Now, I would say it depends what you want kind of result you want. If you want to do an unique character, you start modeling. If you want to make a picture and can get the meshes you need, you would make a picture. The main thing is, after work and family i am happy if i can find some undisturbed hours in the week before I get to tired to get anything done.
Getting the textures/shaders right, getting the light right, make your pose believable are all things poser does not do for you. An user still needs skill to get everything right. It is still not the "make Art-Button". No, you do not need to the modeling skills, if you find everything you need.
Actually, I can do a lot of things with poser, which I have to pay much much more expensive otherwhere. I have cloth simulation and hair simulation, the renderer has a usable shader system, IBL and AO. I have done some models by myself for some pictures. I have used the models from DAZ in other cases.
If the site here is for pro's only, I am wrong here. But then, it would be nice if the front page states so. I started modeling probably with fewer time than you, and much later in my life. If people like me are not wanted here, just say so.
Last edited by Uwe_Schmidt; March 12th, 2007 at 02:01 PM.
Acknowledged, and agree.Originally Posted by Uwe_Schmidt
I came to enjoy what I had always believed to be a very open community and not so "elite" and closeminded as some other spots. I've learned a lot from CA, and interests being peaked back up from stuff I used to do in school (sculpture). And to see a fellow member get his hand slapped for TESTING a method that so many of us have been told is not-up-to-par or "illegal" in the art world, is very sad. It's the first time he's used it, just to see what the hub-bub was about, and he was impressed. He never stated WHY, yet it was known (before he deleted the statement) that he underestimated the proggie. But before he could state further, he took it down because he felt ashamed and attacked. Yes, it was expected. This happens so often... but it's sad to see it here at CA. And YES... this is NOT a Poser community. I do not believe a lot needs to be dedicated to Poser here. BUT... if it is used as a TOOL in someone's work... by gawd, I would like to see. No one NEEDS to say "I used Poser to layout the scene" if they don't need to, but if it is used in some way, I believe the creator should not feel ashamed to express such a statement. It's no different than me hiring models to pose for me in life or to take photographs of for a piece.
I'm 32. I don't make a lot of money to hire models or actors, nor is my place large enough to hold a photo or film studio. So, I buy Poser. And I'm going to be ridiculed for that if I state that I do use such a program? Because I'm having issues figuring out an atmosphere/lighting to use, or if the angle I am imagining is conceivable, make me less a person and more "poseur"?
I thought I was creating things because I needed an outlet for my dark mind and hoping others would enjoy the output... unfortunately, this isn't allowed. I'm not here at CA to better myself to make money in the corporate world, I'm here to express my imagination like everyone else, and learn new techniques for future works. If my imagination needs a kick on angles, lighting, or even different poses, I'm not ashamed to use Poser. I'm a good person, not some "thief" or "cheater". I'm not needing to impress or please fellow Creators (it's a nice feel, but not priority #1)... the person to please is one's self and/or the one accepting the piece of work.
If a person cheats... they cheat. What have they learned? Nothing. Isn't that punishment and ridicule enough? But, we didn't even get John to explain what impresses him about this proggie. Let's hear what he has to say without shunning him.
The Other White Meat
I was spending way too much time writing individual responses, so I'm just going to scrap that, and say who cares? It's just an opinion, don't take it personally. Don't let an opinion discourage you from making the type of art you want to make. Take a deep breath and get over it, no worries!
I mailed the admin team to delete my account. You are right, I simply should not care about this site.
There is nothing wrong with either view. A while back, using a computer to do art was as redeculed as this seems to be, yet now it's getting accepted. As animators create art by manipulating objects, so this person can do the same.
If you are reading this, John and Uwe, stand by your art. Hobby is a bs word you use for lieing to your wife and getting her off your back so you can do the thing you love, create. But in truth, art is something we breath, it's consuming and dominating.
There is nothing wrong with using found objects to create art. BUT you must stand by it! What I think our elitist friends here were trying to say, was that to be able to become a great artist you should know and understand all of your tools. To do that you should be able to make them. I must know how to mix a body of clay to be able to sculpt, otherwise I am working blind. Should I mix all of my clay? No.
One of my favorite teachers once said,
When you take someone's art and use it in your work, you must change it, and then say something with it. Just making a pretty picture with someone's art is not art. Saying something with it, is." I respect her very much and think that this applies here. John should post his work again and tell us what he was trying to express by it. I for one am intrigued.
SubPablo is entitled to his view, and I think that blaming him for expressing it isn't fair either. It's a controversial topic and I think we should be happy that people take their time to express honest oppinions. I for one preffer to hear the truth, even if it hurts.
So in short, lets have less drama and more critique.
John, please repost the pictures. You might get harsh feedback, but
you might get constructive feedback too.
-> Dream In A Dream <-
Originally Posted by SubPablo
Dammit.. there's no thumbsup smiley, so I hope you like Stoli.
As I had stated earlier, I wasn't attacking you in any way, SubP. Like you had said, you knew a few feathers were gonna be fluttering-about, but it was more of a butthole-pucker with me.
Wandering Prophet said it's a hot topic, as it seems it will be for years to come.
Imagine how many pros ridiculed this guy. Terrific stuff, but some elites may question the medium.
The Other White Meat
Most of us can't afford professional 3D suites like Maya, So what! Poser ends up in most cases a sort of virtual dress up doll. Your desire to create should be able to drive to something better than buying other peoples creations and posing them together. It's true this site does not require you to be a professional artist, but the implications of joining this community are that you would like to strive to bring your art up to that level.
If you want to make 3d objects on the cheap, go out and buy some damn clay. For what you pay for poser and the extra figures you could get a ton, an actual ton of clay. Water based clay literally lasts forever. If you come up with something you think resembles a masterpiece you can cast or fire it. The attached figure was $10 for the clay (bought at an over priced art shop) and $25 to get her fired in a kiln. So quit you’re whining about how you can't afford to get Maya and stick some clay in your kid’s hands while you are at and make it a family thing. They will love you for it.
The hatred that comes from using Poser is that in 99.99999999999999999% of the stuff generated with it looks like UTTER SHIT. Stiff, dead, broken, no action line, etc. Basically, right in the middle of the uncanny valley.
For an even cheaper alternative, get off your fucking ass, grab a camera or a mirror and pose yourself if you don’t have a friend handy. It’ll be REAL, human and accurate.
Now that mentioned, we all know it’s not the tool that makes the artist. And in one way you can have a great software and one won’t be able to use it properly. On the other hand, some prodigy could paint a matte in Painter… I guess it all comes down to the results which even that remains subjective. The only thing that makes me vehemently discourage people, especially student or juniors, to use Poser is that it has the potential to make them lazy and get bad habits. I would like people to raise their standards and learn old school rather than think they’re fat and sassy when they’ve been relying on these crutches so long. If you have the basics and actually are talented, sure go ahead. Just produce something worthwhile without hurting your craft.
I don't see why this should've ever become a pro or anti Poser debate. Some people can produce works of subtle nuance and bold statement with Poser, and some can throw together a bunch of virtual tinkertoys, take a picture and expect everyone to be as proud of it as he is.
Imo, SubPablo was dead on in his assessment. This doesn't look like a 'rate me good and I'll rate you back!' kind of forum, and I see a lot of fantastic work out of dedicated effort done by the kind of people whose technique hasn't been hurt by critique.
Funny, the same thing can be said about Photoshop. 99.999999999% is utter crap because people use filters, and think "Photo Shop" is a PAINTING program. I mean how dare they!Originally Posted by egerie
Sarcasm aside, Poser is just another tool, most beginners will probably do the "Straight off the assembly line" stuff until they become more accustomed to other methods. You can't make a masterpiece in one step, telling someone to use some "l337" software because "that's what the pros use" is rather crazy.
That's giving someone a limo when they're trying to learn how to drive. Walk before running. Let people know Poser, that it is the "walk before the run" let them experiment and become familiar with things and then start teaching them other programs.
I remember someone using poser long ago but combined it with other methods that actually looked really nice. So it just all depends what they use it for.
Basically you're blaming Poser the way people blamed Photoshop because someone used a lens flare for no reason.
Oh wow, thanks for showing that site, I always get into arguments with people who piss and moan how you can't make art with cheap supplies. It has to be "copics" or some other name brand crap.Originally Posted by Manifestant
Here a guy is creating art with Crayolas. That's just awesome. Goes to show it's not always about the tool, it's about outcome.
He wouldn't be ridiculed for using crayons. It's not about what you use, it's about how you use it.Originally Posted by Manifestant
Arshes Nei : Read the rest of the quoted post before putting words in my mouth.
Originally Posted by egerie
The rest of your post is still there - so can't be putting words in your mouth, I'm just taking issue with people who say that because they said that about Photoshop. Sometimes taking a quote out of context isn't exactly an argument against the rest of the post, bur rather an addition to why phrases like that generally suck when people use it. (ie elitists)