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  1. #1
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    Jobs, Jobs, Jobs POSTING...

    Ok,

    here's the Topic of Discussion : Potential Illustration Gigs:

    First of all, for the sake of Organization, i started this thread here b/c even though it is really ON-TOPIC in the Job-Listings sections, the discussion regarding Job-Posting and contracts is essentially off-topic ....

    (attn: Magnut, we could use your input here ! love the posts you've been putting up to Job-Postings... but i agree w/ another aritst who mentioned, maybe we could start the discussion elsewhere....)





    maybe a thread like this already exists ? if so, point me there,
    b/c all i've found so far is random back and forth discussion at the actual job posts, and in my opinion, that post should have just that. all the "sent e-mail!" and other questions (when the employer has obviously put other means to contact them) does nothing but portray a weak desperation from "us".


    Questions that I can think of... let's answer these, discuss, ask more...
    1) Is the potential employer being clear about the Pay Structure/IF any? (and why is that important right off the bat?)

    2) How do artists with weak portfolios (let's face it, compared to artists with a long list of paid gigs to show as example) compete to get chosen for a job without giving their work up for less than $20 an hour ? (Graphic Arts Guild puts the mean income for graphic work at $40/hr last time i checked so even $20 is STEAL;every time folks work for less than that we lower our potency and ability to have this craft as a primary income)

    2a) what's wrong with Portfolio-Building jobs? (as long as they're described as such?)
    --jobs that have no pay (perhaps potential royalties only)
    but are a great way to meet a challenge in a professional way therefore increasing the caliber of one's portfolio for future paid gig potential ?

    3) why are Contracts important, ( is there ever a job that doesn't need one) ?

    3a) where are there good contract templates ?

    4) -- What Other Questions should be asked and Discussed in this thread ? ??
    ---------------------------------------------------
    I have my own answers to these questions, I've been a freelance illustrator working with contract-jobs for the last 3 years.... I'm 29, my business and experience is young, but I've found that maintaining integrity is a strong foundation for future gigs and an example to my fellow illustrators/professional Artists ....

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  3. #2
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    Maybe there should be more added but I would like to point out that
    Qs 2 2a 3 and 3a all have entire threads devoted to them, some in a lot of detail.

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  4. #3
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    oh, ok...

    i looked around and couldn't find these devoted threads...

    where r they?

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  5. #4
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    try http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...ight=contracts and the sticky in employment section to get started.
    And re Q2a see http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57384

    A quick look around found quite a few other threads with bit and pieces of info.

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    thanks!

    well, perhaps this thread could start as a discussion on current job postings..without having to have that discussion directly below the job listing ? .. just a thought. ...

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    I don't really want to feed this because, as stated, most of these questions have been often discussed, but I want to say in response to:
    How do artists with weak portfolios (let's face it, compared to artists with a long list of paid gigs to show as example) compete to get chosen for a job without giving their work up for less than $20 an hour ?
    First, YOU always have the power of "no" when negotiating a job. The only person to blame in taking a bad deal is yourself. If employers are not offering what you consider a fair rate, then you don't have to take the job.

    What mostly bothers me about the question though is the confusion of "portfolio" and "resume". Companies hire artists foremost from their portfolios. I've never even been asked for any kind of resume. That being the case, a portfolio full of personal and spec work can be way more impressive (and therefor successful) than another portfolio full of paid jobs, it just depends on the artist's ability. What makes a weak portfolio is weak art, paid or otherwise.

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    To add to what Dave is saying... An employer who goes with a low-ball figure is cheating themselves of quality and is (in my experience) never someone you'd want to work with ANYWAY. That's the kind of employer who doesn't deal with artists or know the market. They're more likely to make ridiculous demands and/or soak up your time.

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    If the choice is between doing work that pays crap, and working for yourself for free, then work for yourself, because that will give you more control over what eventually goes into your portfolio. And you want to control what goes into your portfolio so that you can establish yourself as an artist who does X type of art.

    And if what you want is practice working within the restrictions of an assignment, then pick yourself some restrictions before you start each assignment, or ask someone here with experience to suggest some restrictions, or try the community activities.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    Quick note that I want to add with regards to when you do get work as a freelancer. If you do agree to work and you're issued a contract, art specs, and reference you should let the AD know that you received them ASAP. On top of that read those documents and review any reference material that you have in case there are errors, omissions or other discrepancies w/regards to what was agreed. Communication is a very important part of working as a freelancer. In the even that the art director has to find a replacement for you because you're unable to do the work, you've now giving your replacement less time to complete the assignment. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction and you never know who the person you're dealing with knows. On a final note, the various industries you can get work in are rather incestuous and word spreads around w/regards to positive or negative marks on performance.

    Last edited by Undertow; March 3rd, 2007 at 03:24 AM.
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  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamiloDragon
    2) How do artists with weak portfolios (let's face it, compared to artists with a long list of paid gigs to show as example) compete to get chosen for a job without giving their work up for less than $20 an hour ?
    By working on their portfolios so they're not "weak." Like it or not, illustration is one of the closest things to a true meritocracy that exists. The way you get good paying work is by doing work that's worth paying for.


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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamiloDragon

    2a) what's wrong with Portfolio-Building jobs? (as long as they're described as such?)
    --jobs that have no pay (perhaps potential royalties only)
    but are a great way to meet a challenge in a professional way therefore increasing the caliber of one's portfolio for future paid gig potential ?
    I'm on the fence with this one. While I understand the benefits that might be achieved by working in a client/contractor basis; one that has the potential to provide business experience along with the art direction experience and portfolio creation, I also understand that an artist enticed into working for free still won't be working under typical parametres out in the work force.

    Let's face it, you're being asked by a 'company/business' with little or no work experience themselves and obviously no working captital to perform at a level commensurate with those conditions in place. So, in my mind, there's a strong liklihood that no real world experience of any value to the craft, other then knowing what not to do (which indeed does have some value, but there's ample opportunities in our lives to gain that sort of experience already), would be gained.



    3) why are Contracts important, ( is there ever a job that doesn't need one) ?
    Contracts are you're only means of protection, as flimsy as they may be at times, against bad apples and poor choices. If you are expected to work without a contract that satisfies you, then run away. Fast. Contracts are your friends.

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  13. #12
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    With regards to your portfolio very rarely will one portfolio meet all the requirements that an art director is looking for. To give you an example, I'd rather look at an artists sketch book before I see their finished pieces. Some art directors only want to see finished work. The weakest link in your portfolio can also sink your chance at getting a job. Todd McFarlane said once that in preparing your comic book samples take 4 pieces of your best work and pretend like the rest of them don't exist. The more ammunition you give them to not hire you, the harder it's going to be to win them over.

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  14. #13
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    Mod teams & hobbyist game dev projects are a great way to get experience if you want to be in the game industry IMHO. They do not pay, but no one gets paid and no one is making money out of your hard work.

    If you pick a serious one you will get plenty if insight about what works in a finished (or semi finished game) and what doesn't and you will learn how other disciplines work differently than artists.

    Beware of idiots who don't know the first thing about programming or modeling and who think they are going to make a MMO like Wow but better using only volunteers while he "supervises the work" and decides on the storyline.

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  15. #14
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    If the choice is between doing work that pays crap, and working for yourself for free, then work for yourself, because that will give you more control over what eventually goes into your portfolio. And you want to control what goes into your portfolio so that you can establish yourself as an artist who does X type of art.
    i really dig this answer... and some of the assignments in concept 101 , that thread here which i'm really digging, can be portfolio building ...

    The more ammunition you give them to not hire you, the harder it's going to be to win them over.
    i find this to be a golden nugget of advice.

    What mostly bothers me about the question though is the confusion of "portfolio" and "resume". Companies hire artists foremost from their portfolios. I've never even been asked for any kind of resume. That being the case, a portfolio full of personal and spec work can be way more impressive (and therefor successful) than another portfolio full of paid jobs, it just depends on the artist's ability. What makes a weak portfolio is weak art, paid or otherwise.
    excellent point. Again, this is another push towards self-motivated portfolio-building ... creating "jobs" that are "professional-quality" examples in one's portfolio is the way to go ...

    .. I've been reading other threads about these same issues (sorry i started a new one before finding those!)
    and I feel more confident in philosophies i've been feeling and learning in the last couple years as a professional freelance illustrator.

    thanks to those who responded to these questions, very insightful ...


    best,
    camilo

    Last edited by CamiloDragon; January 5th, 2014 at 02:02 AM. Reason: getting rid of outdated dollar quotes
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  16. #15
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    2a) what's wrong with Portfolio-Building jobs? (as long as they're described as such?)
    --jobs that have no pay (perhaps potential royalties only)
    but are a great way to meet a challenge in a professional way therefore increasing the caliber of one's portfolio for future paid gig potential ?
    You will be digging your own grave with this perspective. Business ARE nothing more than relationships. If you let companies know you will work for free, then don't ever expect to get paid in the future. You're not just doing a job, you are establishing and building your own reputation. It's like a girl who puts out on the first date. Pretty soon everyone will expect you to put out for them too.


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