Cheap Art Offers or the ethics of the job section
 
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  1. #1
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    Cheap Art Offers or the ethics of the job section

    I like to keep an eye on the job section and lately there has been quite a few posts in the ARTISTS LOOKING FOR WORK! section by artists offering to do commissions for 3-15$ a piece. Of course, at that price we're not talkin about Spectrum caliber stuff.

    I am a bit at loss with what to do with those posts. I was thinking maybe I should contact these artists and try to explain that they are actually hurting themselves and other artists but I'm not sure. So far I have only monitored the posts (to make sure nothing turns ugly if other artists get offended by the offers.)

    I haven't seen a problem so far but this kind of posting seems to be gaining in popularity (maybe someone listed CA somewhere as a good place to get jobs.)

    What do you guys think?

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    I don't see where anything needs to be done about it. These are unprofessional jobs that will have unprofessional artists working on them. You're not going to see a whole lot of top notch jobs in that section, as most companies already have people to work with, or know enough people to find someone they need.

    I think that section is good for helping artists get their foot in the door, or making some contacts. I've personally gotten a couple decent paying jobs on there, but nothing major. Like you say, most of it is crap.

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    I'm really of the mind that a client who hires an artist at $3 a drawing deserves what they get as much as the artist making the offer does, which is to mean that people should expect the price to reflect in some degree the quality they will recieve (on both sides). Not to mention that if we have a non-paying section, I don't see how it's right to kill threads that are next-to-non-paying

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    To use my all time favorite phrase... "It is what it is."

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    I think it is a good thing. Any artist who is willing to work for so little will produce terrible work, and any employeer hiring them will discover you get what you pay for. And thats always a good thing.

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    Any artist trying to run a business on such pricing will either go bankrupt in a hurry, increase their prices in self defense, or (less likely) find a way to make a living by churning out volumes of poor-quality work in a hurry. (But seeing as there isn't a significant market for zillions of small, crappy pieces of art, I doubt this is viable.) So one way or the other market forces should take care of them.

    While it appeals to me to encourage these artists to charge more for their work, particularly if they are selling the rights to the work, I can't think of a fair way to enforce them to charge more.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune
    These are offers done by artists, not job offers.
    DOH! Uhm...I was sleepy when I wrote that. Yeah that's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seedling
    While it appeals to me to encourage these artists to charge more for their work, particularly if they are selling the rights to the work, I can't think of a fair way to enforce them to charge more.
    Ban them from CA!

    No, I'm just kidding. I have on occasion sold myself short on pro bono work, but these usually fall into the non-profit organization category, such as church groups or the local boy scout troop, soccer teams, what have you. In these instances, I crank out the same quality of work I would for say, a construction company looking for a new logo. However, since these types of groups are by nature low on funds, therefore, I make donations by providing low-cost or even pro bono art work.

    I'm in agreement in that if we have a spot for non-paying jobs, then work for next-to-non-paying jobs should be allowed to stay. However, is anyone should ever complain on how they got ripped and their hard work showed up in a magazine for the $15 they got paid, then they should be strung up by their thumbnails for being plain old dumb. By that same token, if any client that accepts these pieces ever complains that the work they shelled out $15 was of inferior quality, then they should be boiled in oil for being plain old cheap.

    I'll keep the pot on simmer.

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    OH SNAP $3 FOR A PIECE OF ART! I could've saved a fortune on illustrators.. and I call myself an Art Director. That's what I get for not making artists compete for wages

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    So you're saying pricing it that low is bad? My art isn't amazing and I'm not good at assuming prices on pictures so that's why I go so cheap. I don't want to overcharge. I see that a lot on Sheezyart. People who are next to stick-figures experienced ask for like $10 for a sketch.

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    ya get what you pay for. If they suck, maybe their work is only worth that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starami
    So you're saying pricing it that low is bad? My art isn't amazing and I'm not good at assuming prices on pictures so that's why I go so cheap. I don't want to overcharge. I see that a lot on Sheezyart. People who are next to stick-figures experienced ask for like $10 for a sketch.
    So, how's business? Are the firesale prices generating a flood of offers in your inbox?
    And, how much is your time worth?


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    No, but what's your point?

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    If you don't see his point, then do yourself a favor and learn what you're worth. Unless that really is what you're worth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starami
    No, but what's your point?
    Are you trying to actually make a living off of your work? If so, you are screwing yourself. If not, then why are you taking embarassingly low comissions to make art for other people when you could be drawing for yourself for the bargain of three dollars less?

    If your intent is to make a living off of art *eventually* then do yourself a favor and quit mucking around with the three-dollar-a-drawing nonsense, and invest your time in your own education, instead. There is a free resource in my sig called "Concept Art 101" that might interest you.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    Red face A Raccoon's opinion

    My opinion on the subject:

    I didn't know that there was such a large discussion on pricing of art. I think the pricing of art is up to the artist. No matter how good you are it still maybe difficult to sell art. When I price my art it may vary at times, sometimes I get jobs for $80.00 or sometimes I get jobs for simple sketches for $5.00. I'm an un-established artist and cannot charge ridiculous amounts of money for artwork because no one will buy it because I'm an unknown. For now I keep an online gallery and try to get my work seen by others online as well as at comic book conventions. By selling simple sketches for a low price I think I can at least start a fan base and if I can get many people interested in my work I can gradually increase pricing. I love to do art and I always try to put 100% into my artwork weather I'm getting paid $5.00 or $80.00 for a piece of art. I want to try my best when doing art by trying to improve all the time and refining my skills. I hope that answers any questions. Thanks and have a good day.

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    Racoon, something tells me that when you sell a sketch for 5$ you don't sell it to a company that will use it commercially. It's one thing to sell your neighbor a sketch of his dog for 5$ and to answer to an ad of someone who wants to pay you 10$ for designs he will print on tshirts and sell.

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    I cant believe that people are admitting to charging $5-$10 for their work. I mean, in Sterling thats £2.50 - £5.00...thats your train fair ONE WAY. Thats not even a round in the pub...
    Theres absolutely no way I would under sell myself. I mean, do you really want to be known for being 'cheap' or being a talented 'artist'

    So, Qitsune, maybe there should be a 'Level' for artists advertising themselves in the job section? [/B]....I dunno.....

    You see folks, when I go to the 'Job Section' I expect its for those who are at a fairly High Level of skill, offering their work to the Industry, and vice versa. So, to have mediochre artists advertising next to highly skilled artists IMO isnt a good thing. If your offering sketches for $5 a piece, you shouldnt IMO be advertising yourself next to someone who can offer much more (in terms of skill, concept and well, price)

    Maybe there should be a section for 'Professionals to Intermediates' looking for work, and one for 'I'll-sketch-your-dog-for-$5' Section?


    Sorry if this is harsh, but I'm with Qitsune...

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    Raccoon, there are various problems with your strategy. For instance, consider that your price of living goes up, and your skill level goes up. You’re going to raise your prices. But the folks who are already up to their eyeballs in your $5 work are going to say “no thanks, I’ve already got what you made, and your new work is too expensive. Goodbye.” I other words, the you who sells art at $50 a pop is going to be in competition with the you who sells art at $5 a pop. An audience who pays $5 for art will not grow up and shell out more as you grow and need to charge more.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    "Hangin's too good for em! BURNING'S TOO GOOD FOR EM...They should be ripped into little bitty pieces and BURIED ALIVE!"


    Seriously, with the dearth of companies trying to take advantage of artist good will and desperation, the constant under-cutting and under-bidding doesn't help anything. Wise up.

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    at first I thought that i`ve been misreading "5-10" for "50-100" @_@ going so cheap is not just bad for oneself but , if there are more of those "cheapos" rising up , bad for any other artist trying to make a living out of art...(if asome of those cheapos are actually good at what they are doing...if not...then its just thweir problem and not the problem of others)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly
    ...

    So, Qitsune, maybe there should be a 'Level' for artists advertising themselves in the job section? [/B]....I dunno.....

    You see folks, when I go to the 'Job Section' I expect its for those who are at a fairly High Level of skill, offering their work to the Industry, and vice versa. So, to have mediochre artists advertising next to highly skilled artists IMO isnt a good thing. If your offering sketches for $5 a piece, you shouldnt IMO be advertising yourself next to someone who can offer much more (in terms of skill, concept and well, price)

    Maybe there should be a section for 'Professionals to Intermediates' looking for work, and one for 'I'll-sketch-your-dog-for-$5' Section?

    Sorry if this is harsh, but I'm with Qitsune...
    But how do we rate them? Where is the line? Who will do it? It would mean a team of job section mods who agree with each other.
    How do you tell someone that their work is subpar? I think looking through the Artists looking for work section, it's quite clear who looks pro or not so if I were looking to hire someone, I would know who not to hire.
    The problem is, if I were a company, maybe I would try to have a good one for the price advertised by the bad ones. If I was just looking for a sketch of my rpg furry character, I'd be more than happy to pay 5$ for something ok (I'm not sure what the market is for that on CA as opposed to Elfwood or DA.)

    That's not the only issue in the job section. We have ppl who answer job postings for sequential art and have NOT A SINGLE piece of sequential art in their portfolio, should we censor them too? What about those who answer these job postings by e-mail?
    Aside from having stickies with guidelines and advise and monitoring for abuse, I don't think we can really have so much control over the job section. The market has to regulate itself.

    I was thinking I might however do a kind of PM template I'd send to artists who price themselves too low to explain politely that in the end, they are only hurting themselves. Not sure if that would help.

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  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qitsune
    I was thinking I might however do a kind of PM template I'd send to artists who price themselves too low to explain politely that in the end, they are only hurting themselves. Not sure if that would help.
    I think that's a good idea, Qitsune.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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    Qitsune - read your reply and yeah, uh-huh, I understand what you mean, it'll get all complicated and messy...
    - the PM thing you suggessted, may help those '5-dollar-folk' to think twice about themselves and their worth...fingers crossed it works

    Damn, what a situation!?!

    Mx

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    [QUOTE=Qitsune

    That's not the only issue in the job section. We have ppl who answer job postings for sequential art and have NOT A SINGLE piece of sequential art in their portfolio, should we censor them too? What about those who answer these job postings by e-mail?
    Aside from having stickies with guidelines and advise and monitoring for abuse, I don't think we can really have so much control over the job section. The market has to regulate itself.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, that is kinda strange.
    I joined this community because I want to tap some of the pure, uncut talent that flows through this forum for a small project I am working on. I posted a thread in the jobs section for a very specific sci-fi style, and I get replies from people who dont have a single peice of sci-fi work in their portfolio. And half of the people who replied did so by email, which is... I dunno. Sketchy. It seems that some people just have a form letter they send to everyone. I got a resume! for a one-off project!
    As far as pricing, it would be really nice to have a sticky on the job offer forums that had a range of acceptable price brackets based on skill level. As a CG artist in the USA, I would say that professional concept work needs to be paid at least $20USD/hr, going toward $40/hr as skill dictates. But student work could be cheaper. Since I have no idea how long it takes to do a decent piece of work (I am a 3d CG guy.. can't move a pencil to save my life), I just guessed at $200 being the minimum amount that somone skilled could be bothered to work for. any thoughts?

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    Qitsune, it hasnt done me any harm ;p

    Besides, EA got places by underselling and making shit now they just oversell and make shit heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeinin
    And half of the people who replied did so by email, which is... I dunno. Sketchy. It seems that some people just have a form letter they send to everyone.
    Email replies are the best way to do it. If you are a busy employer, you don't have time to troll a forum to find that one guy posted for the day. How is that "sketchy"? Also, though a "form letter" isn't the most desirable thing to see, think about a freelancer. We see the same "form posting" for a job--or multiple jobs--all over the place. The employer's time is worth money and so is ours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Manley
    "Hangin's too good for em! BURNING'S TOO GOOD FOR EM...They should be ripped into little bitty pieces and BURIED ALIVE!"
    Hanover Fiste at his very best. Nice quote.

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    I don't even know why CA has that section. All it does is hurt and devalue the community of artists on this site. Not to mention all artists in general.

    I was thinking I might however do a kind of PM template I'd send to artists who price themselves too low to explain politely that in the end, they are only hurting themselves. Not sure if that would help.
    Sadly it would not. It is a waste of time trying to convince people of their worth. ( Actually impossible.)
    Not to mention stopping the idiots who just post b.s. in a forum that eventually effects us all.
    I recommend we just take that section out.

    Last edited by otis; March 14th, 2007 at 02:24 PM.
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