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  1. #1
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    The Oil Painting Thread......... Q & A

    I thought I would start this thread for all of you who love oil painting as much as me and want to learn as much as you can about it!!! So feel free to post all of your question and answers pertaining to oil painting here!

    I'm gonna start this off with a question that I hope some of the more experienced oil painters on this forum could hopefully answer and maybe put up a tutorial on it somehow!

    I've always wondered how to get that hazy, atmospheric, fog effect with oil paints like in the Bierstadt paintings I've posted below! I've seen bob ross use a dry brush and lightly go back over paint, blending it in. Is this how you create that effect? Using a soft blending brush with no paint on it? To push objects back into the distance and give them that blur. Or is there some type of glaze or a certain medium that needs to be used; such as linseed oil, alkyds, resins, etc. ? How do you get that effect without smearing what you have already painted in the background? Does it need to dry a little first?

    I want to learn how to do this so I can add that extra bit of realism to my landscapes and other pieces I embark on!
    Last edited by stalsby; January 16th, 2007 at 02:19 PM.
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  3. #2
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    The haziness you refer to is a technique known as sfumato. Most people credit Leonardo da Vinci with inventing the technique, and he certainly used it in all his oil paintings.

    He did this by adding a blue glaze on top of his background. I've never had the chance to ask him personally, but I think he did some blending as well to heighten atmospheric perspective.

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    Iím sure there are many ways to get that sort of atmospheric effect. It kind of depends on how you want to handle the paint, I imagine. I prefer mixing all the major colors first, then painting those colors down in blocks, and then painting into the blocks until they are no longer blocks. So, I do it all in one go, with no glazing or layers or underpainting.
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    Thanks MrJackson! I didn't know they had a term for that technique!

    Seedling - thanks for your input!

    Here's a link to some glaze/scumble techniques that helped me understand this a lot better. http://www.studiopeters.com/still_life_painting.htm
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    Here's link to a good site for oil mediums! I just recently bought a set of oil mediums from here to work with! There is a lot of good information on this site if you have questions and need answers!

    http://www.gamblincolors.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalsby
    How do you get that effect without smearing what you have already painted in the background? Does it need to dry a little first?
    Do you honestly think Bierstadt did those paintings in one shot?
    You're not exploiting the full potential of oils if you're doing everything straight alla prima.

    Tristan Elwell
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    No, But I'm sure he had the capability to! If Bob Ross can do it in 30 min hahaa! jk. I'm no expert oil painter, this is why I made this thread and have the questions I do.

    And I'm sure there are ways to create a sfumato effect even if you're painting alla prima. That's why I asked if the paint needs to dry a little. I didn't specify a time period. I was talking maybe 30 min or so for an initial layer of paint to dry a little before blending back over it to create that atmosphere.

    guess there was a typo ;] all apologies

    thanks.
    Last edited by stalsby; January 16th, 2007 at 11:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    You're not exploiting the full potential of oils if you're doing everything straight alla prima.
    Duane Keiser demonstrates otherwise.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xu0ONu2yE0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZf1l1k9uDk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tF0y4LfJC0

    Stalsby, if you are interested in painting alla prima, then just put the colors where you want them. Itís not ďjust that easyĒ, but with practice itís a very natural way to work.
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    I love Keiser's work, and I think learning direct painting is the best way to start. Nothing beats learning how to identify, mix, and apply the right color on the right place. But it's an undeniable fact that there are effects that you get from the interaction of paint layers that can't be gotten other ways, even when working in a basically opaque manner (see Lucien Freud, for example). I also assure you that Keiser is fully aware of this, and takes full advantage of it in his larger, multi session works.
    Last edited by Elwell; January 16th, 2007 at 03:29 PM.

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    seedling - thanks for the vids! really appreciate that! I checked his website out and his landscapes are amazing!

    I agree with you elwell, there are effects that you get from the interaction of paint layers that can't be gotten other ways! oh and the black horse painting on your site is my favorite!
    Last edited by stalsby; January 16th, 2007 at 03:34 PM.
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    My starter caveat: I think glazing or drybrush are better ways to do this.

    If you must try to do this direct though, maybe paint in the background as though there is no haze and then lay the painting flat. On another piece of cloth paint a rather drybrushy amount of bluish white and then gently place that piece of cloth over the background area you want to haze. If you gently make the second cloth come into contact with the painting uniformly, and then gently pull it away, it may simultaneously lay in a bit of the bluish white while blurring the outlines a little bit. To me, this seems risky and a pain in the butt compared with waiting a week and then drybrushing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    But it's an undeniable fact that there are effects that you get from the interaction of paint layers that can't be gotten other ways. . .
    Sure. And itís an undenyable fact that you can get effects from alla prima painting that you canít get through glazing. Glazing can be used to absolutely stunning effect, but it isnít the end-all-be-all of oils for every artist. Saying that someone is not exploiting the full potential of oils if they're doing everything straight alla prima is like saying someone isnít exploiting the full potential of beans by not making chili. Sometimes the chef just wants refried beans.

    Quote Originally Posted by arttorney
    If you gently make the second cloth come into contact with the painting uniformly, and then gently pull it away. . .
    ROFL! Thatís a recipe for a big mess on and off the painting! Have you really achieved decent results with this technique?
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    that was an odd reply about the beans. very odd. i'm not sure you know what elwell is saying

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seedling
    And itís an undenyable fact that you can get effects from alla prima painting that you canít get through glazing.
    I'm not talking about glazing. I'm talking about how paint goes on over paint.

    Tristan Elwell
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    I got the idea I talked about from a technique you use to get a canvas like texture on primed panels. Actually, I never actually tried that thing I suggested and I am pretty sure at least three perfectly good paintings would get ruined while you figured out:

    1. the layer on the actual painting must be as thin as possible or you'll end up with a sky textured like a popcorn ceiling.

    2. You have to put enough, but not too much, paint on the second cloth. (???)

    3. How do you ensure even coverage of cloth against canvas without the oily cloth skidding across the oily canvas like a couple of banana peels.

    Then there's what the heck do you do with this spontaneously combustible cloth when you're done?

    A thin underpainting is reasonably touch dry within about a week as long as you didn't use something like Lamp Black. Just come back and dry brush a week later if you want a matte look, or glaze if you want gloss.

    You can make some very weird effects with paint layers. If you make squiggly impasted striations in the underpainting and then drybrush in one direction with another color it'll make something that looks like steel wool hairs from the second color catching on the ridges. If, instead of drybrushing, you put on a diluted second color and then dab lightly across the top with a cloth, the second color will stay in the valleys and the ridges will remain the first color.
    Last edited by arttorney; January 16th, 2007 at 10:51 PM.

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    I understand totally about the beans.

    but I think arguing about which is better all prima or glazing is silly. in the hands of an expert both are stunning

    lookinfg at the work of the california impressionists who painted all prima pleinair...you don't get much more beautiful than that

    and of course thenyou turn around and look at vermeer which is layer apon layer over years.. and its gorgeous too

    I am not a patient person.. I want to get the vision down and be done with it . I haven't the patience to revist old paintings..probably should. But when I do I tend to paint a new painting over the top of the old one rather than enhancing what is already there.

    its just a matter of your personal preference... the results can be totally gorgeous either way

    chaos
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    wow, didn't know i could start this much controversy! i love it! hahahaa

    I think doing a little bit of both types of painting is the best! Direct alla prima painting as well as layered painting! Both have there own uniqueness about them and are utilized accordingly! Personally I have never tried using the underpainting/dead coloring method but from what I have read and learned about it, I think i will try using it on my next acrylic or oil painting! It seems very useful and practical to me! One can overwork paintings; but then again one can indulge into a painting and work many many hours on it to accomplish the look they're going for! It all depends on that person's overall goal to me.

    I think underpainting will help to establish the over all composition's value contrast, tone, lighting, focal point, form, mood, ambience, etc. And these are all very important principles! It's just naturally easier to distinguish these things in a monochromatic sense rather than usage of pure color.

    here are some informative links:

    http://howtopaintavermeer.fws1.com/underpainting.htm

    http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/3261/292/

    http://www.springfieldcolorado.com/underpainting.html
    Last edited by stalsby; January 17th, 2007 at 12:02 AM.
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    Stalsby, there are two books vol 1 and 2 called The Methods and Materials of painting of the great schools and masters, by sir charles Lock Eastlake. It is all text and very dry, hard to get through beacuse it is combined eight hundred pages of technical information. It goes over oil painting from the begining. It is not a obvious "how to" book but it is full of techique that you can get from a book rather than go to a church in italy and spend years anyalizing a painting. It also goes over what went wrong and why. Look for it online because it might be out of print.
    I use linseed oil to thin out the paint and create glazes that i can rework later because it takes around twenty four hours to dry, some colors take longer. I use Liquin to create glazes also and i recomend using this medium when you start out because it will start to dry the oils in minutes, again some colors take longer. I use very little pigment with these glazes to get the transparent look, one layer ontop of another. I usally wait for a layer to dry then add another ontop, always very thin. This technique can and will take years to develop not to metion one painting, always have multiple paintings to work on when one is drying.
    You can always work wet into wet with thinning medium to achive some atmosphere quailities.
    Church was downright amazing at his controll over the insane amount of tones in his paintings in which he used glazes of paint to achieve an atmosphere in his paintings.
    When i first started fooling around with it, I didn't have a teacher who taught me about glazes, i had to really think far in advance and i still do. I do alot of planning when it comes to glazes and i might even write it down becuase i will forget. The actuall process of your eye recieving information from glazes is really amazing. Get a book on it and practice layering light over dark, dark over dark, green over red, red over green, and so on.

  20. #19
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    Eastlake is interesting reading, just remember that it's cutting edge scholarship... 150 years ago.

    Tristan Elwell
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    ha ha very funny, yeah for some its new and he is kinda of an ashole i forget to metion that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    I'm not talking about glazing. I'm talking about how paint goes on over paint.
    Okay. I thought you were just being ornery, but it turns out I misremembered what you had written. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me as to when a painting stops being alla prima, and starts being something else due to paint being applied on top of paint? Because from what I have experienced, itís impossible not to make an oil painting even in one go without putting paint on top of paint at some point. Even Duane Keiser puts paint on top of paint in his quick paintings. So what the bloody heck are you talking about??

    Quote Originally Posted by chaosrocks
    but I think arguing about which is better all prima or glazing is silly.
    No kidding.
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    Dover has publoshed a cop of that book and put both volumes together for 30 dollars. Look for it at doverpublications.com
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    arttorney's suggestion about using a cloth is a good one. I doubt I would try it with a large sheet, but I've often used a small cotton rag to lightly dab a thin layer of paint onto a dried layer to get an effective thin glaze or scumble. This works better than a brush. I spread out a thin layer on my palette, dab a wadded up cloth on it, and then press it on surface. This can also be used to get different textures by using a sponge or cloths of different weaves. I have a collection of scraps that I use just for this.
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    Ok to stop any controversy, here are my opinions:-

    At this moment in time, I work only Alla Prima, never revisiting a work once I have finished and left it to dry. I have never ever glazed in my life. At this moment in time, It is not something I want to dedicate time to explore.

    Now to give me two pence on the original question:-

    A problem like the atmospheric haze here is nothing more than careful study of values. The haze toward the back is this artists interpretation of atmospheric perspective. As objects recede their clarity reduces, their values are brought closer together, and they often exhibit a stronger harmony in one dominant colour. (Often a cooler blue) (Not always true, use your eyes and look for yourself!!)

    Now, glazing assumes you paint the distant objects as you would the closer ones (or in monochrome, or a dead layer, or many other ways which are not the final colours to be seen in the painting), and then glaze over the top of them to make them less clear/the right colours/more harmonious/fuzzier/or any of the previous. I cant think of anything dafter. Why not look at those distant objects in terms of what they actually are, and paint them as they look straight away?

    Its like Sargent painting women under sheer veils. He didnt paint their normal flesh tones and then glaze over them, he observed the new colour of the flesh, as caused by the veil and so painted that.

    Now I cannot argue that glazing must introduce depth, and has nice optical properties. I am saying however, that it is not the only way to do things. Call me impatient, but I prefer to mix the colours I see and place them to achieve my pictures instead.

  26. #25
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    I also reccommend Hawthorne on Painting. Its small and quick to read but has a nice way of going about explaining ONE method.

    chaos
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    http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...ight=chaos%27s

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    For my own part, when I use layers I do think I am painting those distant objects as they are. There is a "layer" of air between me and the mountains for example. Mountains don't turn colors in and of themselves based on where they are. There's another form of matter in between me and those mountains.

    I generally start painting the thing that's farthest away from me first and move toward myself. I figured out a long time ago that it's a pain in the ass to paint a tree and then try to paint a sky convincingly behind it. (This is because the stronger values of the near ground thing contaminate that background paint at the edges when everything is wet.)

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    guilefine-Thanks for the book suggestions! Ill have to check that out! What makes him such an a-hole? Is he very opinionated or something? Thanks for the glaze info! Can you use something like a laquer thinner or turpentine for thinning the paint to make a glaze? Wouldn't this dry even faster than using linseed oil? And lets say the background in a painting has dried, is it possible to go over it with just a brush with thinner on it and break the paint back down and move it around to create some type of effect? I guess my questions more simply is when oil paints dry on the canvas can you go back and thin them back out with some type of solvent?

    unknown epeiphany - I found both volumes together for 20 bucks on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0486...23#reader-link

    arttorney - I always paint background to foreground, it is the most logical. Just like when you paint in watercolor you must paint from lights to darks. Although I may rough in the whole composition lightly then paint back over things so I can determine where they will be at in the future when I paint them back

    k4pka- If you can directly paint in atmospheric perspective and fog, more power to you! I know what your saying but it just seems like you cant get that extra bit of fuzziness on the edge of things like when you go over with a dry brush blend (like bob ross did with his clouds). It seems like that method adds that extra bit of realism to the painting. just my opinion.

    thanks to everyone for your input!
    Last edited by stalsby; January 17th, 2007 at 12:28 PM.
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    Hmm, what medium to use for painting thickly alla prima? That seems to be the way I paint, and I use only small amounts of turp to dilute the paint if needed. Seems to work for me but maybe there is something far superior that I should try out? Yeah, I'm newb, turp only, so lame...

    Also, are there seccatives that aren't going to ruin the painting in few years?

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    Burnt umber naturally is a siccative. It naturally dries fast, so when it is added to other colors, it helps them to dry faster.

    You have to keep in mind that there are also a lot of other factors that need to come into consideration when talking about preserving oil paintings.

    such as: light levels, humidity levels, varnishes, dirt, improper cleaning and care, etc.

    believe it or not insects can cause damage to oil paintings as well! The carpet beetle and powder post beetle are the 2 pests you need to look out for! They can eat through the wood that's holding your painting together!


    check out some books on this!

    A Handbook on the Care of Paintings Caroline Keck. Watson-Guptill Publications 1965
    Last edited by stalsby; January 17th, 2007 at 01:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalsby
    k4pka- If you can directly paint in atmospheric perspective and fog, more power to you! I know what your saying but it just seems like you cant get that extra bit of fuzziness on the edge of things like when you go over with a dry brush blend (like bob ross did with his clouds). It seems like that method adds that extra bit of realism to the painting. just my opinion.
    Hmm, I can *kind* of see what you are saying. However, you seem to forget that you can dry brush in alla prima painting. The surface isnt one solid coat of paint once finished, not by a long way. My pictures have lots of the initial wash showing through all over the place. If I were to render mountains such as this, I would place an initial tone over which, due to the distance, I would probably dry brush over with the values I need.

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