Ever dreamed about making video games?
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View Poll Results: Ever wanted to make your own video games?

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  • Yes

    53 92.98%
  • No

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  1. #1
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    Ever dreamed about making video games?

    How many people here dreamed about that?.
    Did you know its possible with current technology? Without beign
    an expert in all the aspects of video-game making its very possible
    to make a living while working on the things you enjoy.
    Im talking about independent game development.

    This kind of thing is totally different from the big industries, like EA,
    Blizzard, etc. While they focus on million dollar productions, indies
    focus on making fun games, games that are actually unique, without
    much production value, but most often this games are more fun, since
    they provide instant satisfaction.
    Im not trying to tell you to buy this games, i just want you to know
    that you can leave your dream of doing video-games (if you have it),
    its possible, if you want to, you can learn to do it, and you can earn
    money while you do it.

    The sad thing is that this industry is mostly formed by technical people,
    the industry needs people who come from the ARTS, this industry is
    mostly formed by clones, we need INNOVATION, and i think that some
    of you might be creative enough to make great things that make a
    difference, that attract people, that change the way of thinking of this industry.

    I made a special forum for this purpose, ask questions, give opinions,
    learn a lot of new things, use it as a starting point to learn what you want.

    Its not much, but its enough to form a community with a different and
    special mind set, a community that loves innovation and creativity much
    more than technical prowess.

    So here it is, i really hope you participate:

    http://indieart.18.forumer.com

    Last edited by Fozzybar; December 21st, 2006 at 10:33 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Indy games are awesome. However, as you have demonstrated, it’s a hobby that is sometimes populated by folks who like to make unprofessional statements such as “The sad thing is that this industry is mostly formed by technical people,
    the industry needs people who come from the ARTS, this industry is
    mostly formed by clones. . .” Take a minute to consider what it means to burn bridges before mouthing off like that, mmkay? There may come a time when you would like a steady job and a paycheck, and when that time comes, I’ll be reviewing your portfolio and dredging up what you have posted on the internet.

    For any of you interested in the games industry as a whole, there is a link in my sig to lots of information.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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  3. #3
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    Cool

    Seedling, thanks a lot for your recommendation, but let me tell you something, big changes are not made by people who dont take risks, who like the seeming security of a pay check every month, there is a reason for why the industry stays like it is and its because the majority of people like the security of doing things that are allready selling, but as i said i want to change that, i have a different vision, if you think my statements are unprofesional, its ok, im not trying to be profesional, im trying to be provocative and challenging to anyone interested in changing things and to follow their dreams.
    If you want to let things as they are and simply let things happen, thats ok, but there are some people who dare to reach their dreams.

    I think this articles explains how i feel, and it might help you and others too
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-still-in-you/

    Besides who said i dont want a paycheck?

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  4. #4
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    Christian – I think you need to study up on diplomacy, and you would also do well to study what creativity has come out of companies with large budgets, because there certainly has been a lot of creativity and fun games produced. Because, please, don’t tell me you don’t have a PC or a console and a stack of games for those platforms that you love.

    There’s room in the world for indy projects and big-budget projects. You don’t have to ruin your chances of working in the latter by being obnoxious. Calling my colleagues names will not somehow make your indy games better products.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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  5. #5
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    Work hard and you'll get your ass-patting and even get paid for it. Be a bitch and be overlooked.

    A lot of indy-projects fail because they have bad PR. I've once been on such a team. We made it at the end and the game got all the "Yehaw!" in the reviews, but the team wasn't there anymore. The last months of development were spent calling each other names and fighting (with words).

    Of course, John Smith from Random Town won't buy your game unless he's thinking like you. He's got 50 bucks to spend, and want's some fun for it. And that's why there are 3 Call of Dutys and a ton of Add-Ons. They're successful because people want to play this kind of stuff. Where's the problem? People complain about bad games on the market. But if people didn't buy that kind of stuff, it would not exist. You can't change that. Because you can't reach people. EA or Ubisoft can.

    So, I'd like to wish you good luck in changing what people want to buy.

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  6. #6
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    I dunno, isn't this just plain old spam?



    A post with a big fat link back to a brand spanking new forum would qualify as spam if anyone were to ask me.

    Of course, nobody asked me, so there ya go.

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  7. #7
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    Cool

    Seedling, you and i seem to look creativity in different places, you may see the superficial, i may see the essence, i recognize that most games may look different, but in essence they are no different than games made 20 years ago, you may not understand whay i mean, but if you study game design you would, now, what i dont understand is what "names" im calling your colleagues and what colleagues are you taking about?, is it possible that you are overreacting and that you are seeing words that arent there? (no offense meant, but i think this is the case).
    Hey, but i admit there are a few speciall cases of innovation, but its mostly a clones industry.

    Jabo, imagine a culture where love, knowledge and respect are the norm, where those values are promoted by the media of such culture, and the people, all on a daily basis, now imagine another culture where the media promotes senseless shootings everywhere and killings and porn, wich one of this culture whould be the best?. Video games are a part of culture and i dont like the kind of culture they are supporting, you may defend them, but i am against them.
    I cant reach people?, you are missinformed, visit the the forums for more info and youll see that there are many devs reaching more people than you think of...
    Thanks for your support, im sure it will be hard, but hopefully well make an impact.

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  8. #8
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    I have negative impressions for most indy gamers out there. Probably because I happen to come across a lot of wanna-bes who knows nothing about programming and art. They just have a vague idea and want others to make that idea come true looking cool while they sit back and not doing any work. But that's just my biased impression. Nevertheless, good luck for you and the forum.

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  9. #9
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    Ok, maybe I misunderstand your point of view. What do you want to achieve?

    Do you want to make a game? Then I don't see what's preventing you to do so.
    Do you think todays violent and sexist games are bad? Then why don't you just resist them and play other, non-violent games?
    Are you uncertain about your potential success? Visit a doctor or whatever...

    You're stating so many questions and worries, it's really hard to keep up with your thoughts.

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  10. #10
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    The industry is not just made of "technical" people who are "clones." That is an awful way to stereotyping and marganizling people you've never worked with and don't even know. These "clones" are the one's who build our game engines... the very same game engines YOU want to create your own "innovative, indy" games. A lot of these "clones" you are bashing are real people who are very decent human beings, and they work their asses off trying to create the best gaming experience, even for all the ungrateful jackasses.

    Last edited by CaptainInsano; December 19th, 2006 at 02:33 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Thumbs up

    Jabo, yes, im a very weird person.
    What i want is to build a different indie game developers community, not make a game, im allready doing that on my own, i have been studying how to do it for many years now, im sure that i can achieve something with the knowledge i have, i might not be Sid Meier, but ill do my best.

    I dont pay that kind of games either, but i think that i can do a little more than that by forming a community with a different mind set, a more responsible community, so than when a member decides to make a game then it will produce a totally different game that really shows what other kinds of games can achieve, games that are more than fun, games that actually do some good to people other than "let them escape reality".

    Look, i dont blame you, most indies in business, the ones that are actually working, are cloners, there are a few exceptions, wich happen to make the most popular and best games. But it is true that people who want to start making games dont achieve nothing, because they are miss-informed, or they simply dont want to accept the challenge that it is, or they are too young and have no patience to learn, or they take bigger challenges than they can handle. But the truth is that anyone who wishes, anyone who has the drive to try and do it, can be succesfull doing indie games, you only need to know some things, my forum is there to help that.

    CapitanInsano, i think this is a misunderstanding, i dont name people clones, when i say that the indunstry is made of clones i mean the products, not the people who made them ("clones" is the term we use for the kind of games that just change graphics and are sold as different games, like Quake tounament and Unreal tournament for an easy example, sorry for the confusion :/ ). Now, when i say that technical people form the industry, i mean the indie industry, wich i belive im part of, and i know it. I dont have nothing against people, i just dont like the decitions they make. And i have nothing against technical advancements, its just that games appear to sell just because of the power they show trought technology, and i see so much potential that is missed because of this, im just making a little effort to try to change this, maybe we can make a community that makes different games.

    Last edited by Christian223; December 19th, 2006 at 02:40 PM.
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    Christian, have you ever actually made a game?

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    I have made like 7 games, but not commercial. I have been studying all the parts to beign indie game dev since i am 15 years old, im 24 now, i never stoped stuyding. Im now making my first comercial game, hopefully it will be ready in little less than a year. I understand your skepticism by the way, please stop by the forums to learn more.

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    I hate to be that devil's advocate thing, but isn't it a good idea to make popular types of games because people like them? I mean whats wrong with making Halo 3 knowing that people will have fun? The whole idea is entertainment.
    I also think there is a fair amount of innovation in the game industry these days. At least enough to keep me buying new games.

    And I do agree with a lot of the post, probably not a good idea to poop on people on the professional side. Burning bridges isn't a good thing usually. And considering I have a family, getting a good regular paycheck to do my job would probably take my mind off of finacial worries so that I could work on being more creative.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian223
    I have made like 7 games, but not commercial. I have been studying all the parts to beign indie game dev since i am 15 years old, im 24 now, i never stoped stuyding. Im now making my first comercial game, hopefully it will be ready in little less than a year. I understand your skepticism by the way, please stop by the forums to learn more.
    Fair enough then.

    I wasn't trying to be a dick btw, it seemed like a relevant question in the context of the thread.

    My skepticism largely stems from having attended a truly horrible university that offered a "game design" course, the students tended to have many ideas but not the faintest idea how to go about actually making the thing, or even if it was remotely possible with current technology. Look summed up 90% of them earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by look
    I happen to come across a lot of wanna-bes who knows nothing about programming and art. They just have a vague idea and want others to make that idea come true looking cool while they sit back and not doing any work.
    Since it seems that you don't fall into this category, good luck with your project.

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks a lot Flake, dont forget to participate if you can

    Pragmatism, you are more or less right, have in mind that people dont want something until they see it, did people wanted radios when radios didnt exist?, how can you want what you dont know that exists?, but they did have a HUGE impact when they appeared, maybe WE can do the same if we create other types of games?.

    It may be a good idea to copy big games, but how long can it last?, and for what audience are this games?.
    Read the article and tell me what you think, copying things is not the only or best way to get money. Tell me what you think about it.

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    http://www.games.net/features/112341.shtml

    You gotta watch this whole series, starting from ep 1. Its very enjoyable and educational, it follows a group of indie game developers and their never-ending quest to beat the big boys in the games industry.

    And maybe the time has come, but I have seen the exact same sentiment from so many people... and all of them have turned out to be idle dreamers with unrealistic expectations - lots of heart but little knowledge. Now, I don't know you and I'm not saying that's what you are like, but personally I've grown quite jaded by enthusiastic indie-wannabes who think they can make a great game only to waste all their energy talking about it and end up years later with a steaming pile of turds. And by saying things like "but there are some people who dare to reach their dreams.", which is exactly the type of hollow motivational-speaker type drivel that I've heard ad nauseam, just makes it easy for me to group you with them (perhaps unfairly). I really hope you prove me wrong!

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  18. #18
    AtomicTheory is offline An alcoholic with a drawing problem Level 1 Gladiator: Andabatae
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    i work on mods

    OBEY ME! I HAVE COOKIES
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian223
    if you study game design you would, now, what i dont understand is what "names" im calling your colleagues and what colleagues are you taking about?. . .
    I am a game artist and designer by trade. I have worked at two companies on three mass-market titles that have shipped, and one that is still under production. My collegues are all of the artists, designers, programmers, and others with whom I have worked professionally or hope to work with. I have some experience with this stuff, and I like helping students achieve their goals, so listen up. Here is some advice that will help you.

    You need to attract people to your cause, not drive them away. Your current attitude will alienate anyone who has ever even considered working in the games industry. That is going to leave you with a scant hand-full of rank beginners to work with. It is people who already have experience making games whom you most need. So you need to sway them with positive ideas about indy games, rather than negative ideas about mass-market games.

    Develop the best possible writing skills. I realize that English isn’t your first language. However, if you want to lead a team of people, and particularly if you wish to do so in English over the internet, then you need to be a powerfully good writer. You can’t afford to accidentally insult people the way that you accidentally insulted people here.

    Do more research. The Katamari Games, the Myst games, Psychonauts, Grim Fandango, the Oddworld games – these are all recent mass-market games that promote the values that you claim are missing from mass-market games, specifically love, knowledge, and respect, among other wholesome and interesting ideals that are not steeped in sex and violence.

    Don’t assume that those in the games industry don’t like innovation and don’t want to promote good values, because this assumption is wrong and insulting to us.

    Learn to differentiate more between game design, game programming, and game art. The sort of innovation that you are after is primarily game design. You can use a mass-market engine to make a small, self-funded project that meets your moral objectives. However, what you probably can’t do is have any significant art innovation on an indy budget, because art is an expensive non-necessity for games. You can make innovative and fun games with the right programming, the right design, and assorted colored shapes, as the Commodore 64 taught us.

    You need to learn why large companies frequently do not choose to make games that are highly innovative, because this effects you, too. It’s a simple reason: the more money you have to borrow or invest to create a game, the less you can afford failure, because you have loans to repay, or your own money is at risk. And as a rule, the more different a game is from the norm, the higher the chance that it’s going to fail. As an indy game maker you have so little invested in your projects that it’s easy for you to point at big projects and bemoan the lack of creativity there. However, the trade-off is that as an indy game-maker you don’t have the budget to make much. If by chance you do come into some money, you will find yourself more reluctant to blow it on a risky venture, too, if you have an ounce of wisdom.

    Lay off the drugs. I read on your site where you wrote “Personally i want to design for people who enjoy altered states . . . since i enjoy that too.” If you try to lead a team while maintaining a drug habit, you are screwed. Nobody will choose to follow a stoned leader, because a stoned leader is a risky leader. Get clean first.

    Good luck.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    Puck, yes, i really hope i prove you wrong too . And i know what you mean too because i have seen the exactly same thing as you!, i just hope that i can educate a lot of people that it is possible if you do it the right way, with the right mindset, with the right knowledge, with a bunch of alike minded people who are to share ideas and support you.

    AtomicTheory, i had my share of that too, but beign indie gives you even more freedom that just modify preexisting games, i say try making your own games

    Seedling, i just wanted to attract like minded people and i needed to say what i think in order to do that, i didnt want to attract people that like what the industry does, and maybe i can help a lot of beginnerst too so they can learn fasster than i did, but yeah i think you are right maybe i have offended some, sorry for that, and i need to get better at writing too, im going to put some effort on getting better.
    Are you a game designer too?, still we may have extremelly different ways of thinking about game design, im a graphic designer, a game designer, programmer and wanabee artist, how come i dont respect those people?, i know how hard it is to make those things, well, i have nothing against employees but the people who make decitions, as you say, "its too much risk", absolutelly, thats what i have been thinking for years, but does the risk pay?, think about The Sims, i think it really does pay. Its really simple too, the industry is not there to innovate, its there to make money, thats what i tried to say at first, i want to make games with another purpose, i think that games can be so much more.
    The big difference between indies and big companies i think is that the latter focus on big production values to sell, indies should focus on design to sell and survive, not on producing huge quantities of art, voice overs, 3d animation, 300 3d models with 300 animations each, cinematics, thats impossible, indies should attract by design.

    As i said before, there are a few speciall games there that are different, but the extremelly large amount of games that have been made in all this years is so huge that those special unique games are less than the 0.001% of all that production. Maybe we can show that indies are the alternative to that.

    Im not on drugs, you missed something on that post, the first 2 lines have a link to an article that you should read, altered states its just a definition for a kind of player who likes a special kind of experience when she/he plays, it has nothing to do with drugs.

    Thankyou.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian223
    AtomicTheory, i had my share of that too, but beign indie gives you even more freedom that just modify preexisting games, i say try making your own games
    Don't be so quick to write off mods, they have a lot of potential for interesting non commercial games- you already have a professionally coded engine and often documentation , level building tools, model viewers etc provided for you.

    Natural Selection is a good example of how far you can push the existing code to effectively create a whole new game.

    Counterstrike started out as a homegrown mod, that did quite well.

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    Mods are mods, original design are original design, i have nothing againts mods, i just say that he should try making his own games, thats all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian223
    Mods are mods, original design are original design, i have nothing againts mods, i just say that he should try making his own games, thats all
    No no no, you’ve got it all wrong. Making a mod of a game means taking an existing game engine and applying your own game design to it. It’s what a designer can work with when no programmer is available. It is an ideal method of practice for those who wish to become game designers, and it is a fun end in itself. Don’t get snobby – this is something you can use.

    More later. . .

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    I disagree with you. A game engine, is specifically made for a game design, i mean, it has limitations, different to say that you create your own software to run your own design. I never said that you cant practice with it, but its totally different to think on your own original creation and producing it instead by limiting yourself by the limitations of the engine.
    Do you think that counterstrike is totally different from half life or natural selection?.

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    There are always significant limitations to work with when making games, Christian. The thing is, if you can’t come up with an interesting and original game that expresses whatever it is that you want to express using an existing engine, then you’re going to have a bloody hard time designing games, period.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    True, there are limitations, but limiting yourself to an engine is limiting your capability of creating a new desing, its like saying: paint a circle, using 2 colors, and nothing else, you could end up with a lot of combinations, but are the different results significant ones?. And again i say, i have nothing against mods, but someday you would want to release yourself from the limitations of modding.

    Edit:
    When you programm a new game engine, you have to be precise on what you want to create, you do your code according to the needs of your design, its the same than saying that you limit the engine to only what the design needs. It all depends on what you want to make. If your ideas can be made with a specific engine, great (usually there are games that are different in content only because engines allow not much), if not, then you need a new engine wich will allow your original new game designs to exist.

    Last edited by Christian223; December 20th, 2006 at 11:39 AM.
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    If you have the resources to program a new engine for every idea that pops into your head, then you either independently wealthy, or you are making some mighty small games. And if you are also filling the roles of both designer and programmer – those two roles that aren’t often able to be filled by a single person. What do you do when your time or budget is slim? Haven't you ever thought up a new use for an existing engine?

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    Seedling, those needs are fulfilled with the right type of knowledge, if you are an indie you work with those limitations to do your games, you dont try to imitate the big companies because its simply impossible, instead you adopt a new way of doing games. Thats what im trying to promote with my forum, a new way of thinking. And yes, indie games ARE small, they have to be, but that doesnt mean they are less fun or less "better"...
    When your budget is slim, you decide for how long to work, you limit your production to fit that, and if an engine helps then you use it, but often engines limit you, or they have lincense restrictions, or they are too expensive.
    I for example use blitzmax, its a tool for programming games, prior to that i examined engines, i concluded that i didnt want an engine because of limitations, but a that tool is better because it makes my job easier and faster while at the same time it gives me freedom.

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    I've always found modding extremely limiting when it comes to game design. Most of the time is spent learning other people's code and class structure, trying to fit your own idea into their system can prove difficult and time consuming. However, it was a while since I did any mods and it seems gamecode nowdays is a lot more mod friendly.

    Maybe the strength of indiegamedevs is that they dare also to explore new design space. Some areas of design space is hard to get to using mod engines.

    If you look at a game concept isolated from the artsy content production, I think a lone indie dev can actually do a lot, maybe more than a commercial dev. Just look at Dwarf Fortress. That guy doesn't need a crew of 10 artists working alongside because he made up some new items and creatures, some acii stuff is sufficient. Most of the guys that made many of the early groundbreaking games didn't have any artists, Elite and Adventure are examples that comes to mind. I would argue that programmers are generally much better game designers than artists because they understand logical structuring better, although being both would be even better I guess.

    I agree with the radio analogy. I'm sure there's some degree of innovation in the mainstream game industry, but there's a lot of playing it safe/cowardise too.

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    Jamen jag tror att han skäms, och har gömt sig. Vårt universum det är en av dom otaliga spermasatser som Herren i sin självhärliga ensamhet har runkat fram för å besudla intet.
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    Geezus. I mean, I know indie games are awesome. It IS entirely possible to make a whole, working game using a variety of mediums that are out there right now. And it's obviously a much freer environment for development than big budget titles. But there's still innovation in big industry. There are many dev studios that do care about quality and innovation, that do listen to their employees. Don't come out swinging so hard, man, when no one's actually fighting with you in the first place.

    I kind of feel real iffy about this whole thing "We need ARTS people," because a lot of the really, REALLY good indie games are made by people who are programmers before artists. They do a much better job at just making GOOD games than most indie developers do trying to make 'new' games. But then I guess that's the other thing that I don't really understand about this whole tirade. I just have the personal belief that maybe game designers, indie or not, just need to start really putting their hearts into making games GOOD before they try to run up and down the walls making super complex or super inventive games. Because games are kind of supposed to be fun. Katamari isn't fun because it's shiny and new, and Final Fantasy isn't fun because it has a million and a half features and facets. They're good because people know what they're doing and they spend time making the basics -fun-, not just getting them working and then running to the next feature, or just spend two weeks making an 'original' idea without working in game design basics that engage the player or a core engine that don't suck.

    If you want to see what people do with the chance to make indie games with no background in...well, anything, go check out the massive army of crappy flash games that regularly storm the bowels of the internet. Even the 'inventive' games (few and very far between,) still usually suck because so many people don't take time to study the basics before just announcing "I WANNA MAKE GAMES NOW I CAN" and running off with the idea. Big industry is big not just because of money, but because many people in it have experience and skill.

    PS. Also, Cave Story was made entirely by one dedicated guy. And then there's the single guy who runs ABA games. http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~cs8k-cyu/index_e.html It's worth noting that that neither of these guys, and likely none of the guys Prom mentioned, just run around and crap out good games with pure innovation or 'art.' It's something much, MUCH MUCH more important that makes good games. Dedication.

    Anyway, I effing talk too much. I'm gonna listen to the voices in my head and go back to lurking mo4r.

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