Is Japanese anime real art? - Page 2
 
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  1. #31
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    I like the old style better too... A lot of the new ones are more plasticky... And the character designs seems to have demised... Even though I won't be gushing over the new styles, some of them still win me over their stories... Monster, GITS: SAC, Fullmetal Alchemist, One Piece (thank goodness you made the cutoff on 1999, 'cuz you would've gotten so much flak with Cowboy Bebop being made in 1998 )... Although I must say, the backgrounds in most anime (especially movies) have improved in leaps and bounds...

    And while we're on the subject, anybody recommend me to blind-buy Steamboy?...

    LONG LIVE YOKO KANNO!!!


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  3. #32
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    Bigass Image you linked with text reading:

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Otaking"
    "Come on, let's stop being silly now. If you can still say modern anime looks better, then there's nothing more to say really.
    Well there really is nothing to say if you're going to insist that those who disagree with you (on a widely acknowledged subjective topic) are "silly." Why are you even asking for others' opinions, if you cannot respect them? Discussion is fine, calling names, and a condescending attitude is not.

    Hopefuly we can talk about this like mature people.

    I personally view the change in art style (or in your terms 'effort'), as something akin to the phenomena found everywhere in life as time goes by. All things change with time. In fine art, when Impressionism came about, it was something very different, very simple, almost *lazy,* yet undeniably beautiful when done correctly. Of course, there are plenty of badly drawn shows today, however that does not disqualify the entire genre as a whole. Art does not always need to be detailed, and realistic. You mentioned that you would love to see Ouran Host Club drawin in a style similar to Fist of the North Star, but I simply could not imagine it. I think the simple, almost paper-cut-out art style they used suits the show much better than a serious style would. In my opinion, the styles which you're hooked on give no room for expressing the fun of shows today.


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    I always figured the changing look in various anime was just normal for any art, but I suppose this is food for thought, though I don't know how long my siv of a mind will stay interested in the subject. However, I'm curious, where does one fit in this discussion if they don't have any perceptions of the older cartoons as being of better quality than the more recent? I mean, what if you like it for reasons that aren't concerned about the art of the time, but rather appreciate the distraction provided, however short lived, by any 22 minute episode of animated cartoon?


  5. #34
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    You are still comparing big budget productions such as OVA´s and Movies to Low budget TV series.

    Fair fight would be you to compare productions of equal or similar budget.

    (seba-boi, It looks like a nice film...I would say "go for it")


  6. #35
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    I see Anime as Art in the sense that its well crafted and thoughtout construct, like any quality film. Its not art in the Framed in a Gallery sense. I've seen anime incorporated in gallery works; it was interesting and so was the intent behind the paintings, but it didn't quite click with me.

    Seba-boi
    I recommend renting Steamboy first before you buy. I found it rather weak story-wise. Craft wise its typical of Otomo standards, which is to say extremely well made and designed. But then I recommend rent before buy on almost all animated movies.


  7. #36
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    what kind of a stupid ass question is that?!


  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenZee

    Well there really is nothing to say if you're going to insist that those who disagree with you (on a widely acknowledged subjective topic) are "silly." Why are you even asking for others' opinions, if you cannot respect them? Discussion is fine, calling names, and a condescending attitude is not.

    Oh, come on... surely you could see I was joking? Besides, even if was being serious in calling people silly, that would be pretty articulated for an internet-based argument! lol.

    And what I meant with Ouran host club wasn't that I think it should have a different art style... true, Hokuto no Ken probably wouldn't suit it. I just meant that any modern anime at all would look a million times better with some good old school 80s shading.
    And in typical Johnson fashion, I then spent like an hour doctoring the following image in a futile attempt to prove my point...

    Shamagim- I see your point and raise you twenty. But to be honest, the later of episodes of Fist of the North star (TV series) looke better than any of the classic examples I used. Whereas the recent Hellsing (OVA series) looks just as bad as the new examples. But I see what you mean... I really should dig up clips from both those shows and post them, perhaps.

    seba_boi - Bebop is why I always quote the cutt off point as being 1999. I love Bebop with a passion! I'm so glad it wasn't made a year later, or it would have looked all washed out and computery.

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  9. #38
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    Paul – I like the unshaded versions better – it looks more like traditional Japanese woodblock prints.

    See? Highly subjective. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtEdGradStudent
    Art is communication
    lol! I can hear those three words ticking. Either you are naive, or you are some sort of masochist. Considering that you are voluntarily on your way to teaching highschool students, it must be the latter. ;-)

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Otaking"
    Looks a lot nicer to me!
    I have no horse in this race, since i don't particularly care about anime one way or another...
    but NO!
    (And in both versions, the bigger issue is that the character clashes terribly with the background.)

    Last edited by Elwell; November 29th, 2006 at 12:27 PM.

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  11. #40
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    Lol...yeah, but I wasn't going to redraw the background as well! ^_^ I knew everyone would think the flat, rubbish looking pic would look better, so it wasn't worth spending another 3 hours doctoring someone else's work...


  12. #41
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    In gthe ouran host club comparison I also like the clean cut version a lot better.
    Death note, bebop, slayers, one piece.
    All works of art.
    The style fits the serie. Period.


  13. #42
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    umm wait.. a lot of the "nicer" looking sample art comes from OVA or movies (with considerably higher budgets), while most of the flat shaded examples are from TV series.

    Heck, the lemnear and gunbuster artwork's look like they're from posters and are not cells (prolly have some of urashihara's or mikimoto's artbooks from that era too).

    the nice looking 0083 scenes were mainly stationary too. Not to mention most of the final battle scenes were a single cell pasted on a background... add laser shots, and lot's of camera movement.

    now most 80s TV series... were examples of how cheap it got occasionally, one tone shading, non-moving "animation", and lot's of wind blowing. Hey, there was crap then, there's still crap now.


    *gets flashback of watching tapes shows with rec.arts.anime translated printouts*


  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiko
    I have to disagree with alot of the naruto animation, most of the fight scenes were taken shot for shot from Bebop and old bruce lee movies. It's a bit like cheating!
    Whaaaa? I never noticed, I'll have to check that out man.

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  15. #44
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    I'd have to disagree stonrgly. I think in modern Anime the colours have been used much better, not blinding me with the a-la second grade colour palette of earlier decades. I'm much more for the subtle use of colour and the simplified renderings than the overdone frames of the eighties. Same with Western Comics - used to be nauseatingly colourful, but since Frank Miller things have come along nicely. Panels are far more readable and not near as confusing.

    Have you seen "Spirited Away"? (Not sure if it has come up). Looks far better than anything before, and the new Ghost in the Shell movie has some stunning visuals. Besides, your just taking the best of the old and comparing with the worst of the new like Shamagim said. How bout you take Grave of the Fireflies and put it right up against Spirited Away, would you?

    I'm with all the others, anime is art, but it's a cliched style and something you shouldn't leap onto when you can explore so many other avenues.

    - d.

    Brendan Noeth


  16. #45
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    it should also be noted that macross plus is still the highest budgeted OVA ever produced. it wasn't that the macross zero team couldn't match the framerate because they didn't have the skill, they just didn't have the same budget.


  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Otaking"
    Oh, come on... surely you could see I was joking? Besides, even if was being serious in calling people silly, that would be pretty articulated for an internet-based argument! lol.

    And what I meant with Ouran host club wasn't that I think it should have a different art style... true, Hokuto no Ken probably wouldn't suit it. I just meant that any modern anime at all would look a million times better with some good old school 80s shading.
    And in typical Johnson fashion, I then spent like an hour doctoring the following image in a futile attempt to prove my point...
    I still prefer the original :p. I feel like something excessively dramatic and dark is going to happen in the photoshopped one, like he's suddenly going to transform into a giant monster of hell (and for the record... though I am a big fan of some of the 80s shows, I think Akira's art really isn't anything that interesting lol). and It's obvious that you have a big preference for the 80's style (you can tell your art is highly influenced by it). Of course, all that repeated animation shouldn't be missed. It's hard to judge artwork which is inherantly filled with motion, on a cell by cell basis. I would be more inclinced to discuss the quality of pinups rather than the quality of a screenshot, if we're not going to reference the film as a whole.

    Man all this talk of Macross is making me want to re-marathon it... and top it off with the LOVELY Macross Zero!


  18. #47
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    you just like the "shading" is all

    please, there's more to art than just that. Modern anime has more style. Thats hot!


  19. #48
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    sorry, i´m too lazy too read this hole thing... -but this color-sample.. -did anyone realize, that the old one looks like a boy and the new one like a girl?
    so.. what´s the point?

    in this freaking big pic... the new samples have definitely the better color. and thre is only a different mood..


  20. #49
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    The blocky shading is a style element, the quality put into the ova over that of a tv series is a whole different matter and the two should not be confused. If you're not going to watch an anime simply because the aesthetics are not suitable enough, then you're shooting yourself in the foot.

    No one's having a hard time saying which anime is better. It's hard to take your argument seriously if you're going to continue to compare old ovas to new anime tv shows, it's not logical or analytical in any sense of the word. What works for language quality across all anime platforms does not work for image quality on all platforms, your logic is faulty, your examples are faulty and your conclusions are just silly.

    If people like the newer anime tv series to the older ova's, then FLCL is a no brainer hit out of the ballpark. It had a good budget, but it didn't somehow fall into a timeloop and contain dated blocky shading, rather lots of style and experimentation, clean crisp colors, and good saturation. It is a matter of style and taste, and there's lots to choose from.


  21. #50
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    I believe anime is "real art".
    This is just a little about how anime started and how I consider it to be art in a different view then some.

    It was a style adapted around 1956-1958.
    Osamu Tezuka was considered the "Disney of Japan" and the Hapanese "God of comics".
    He created comics and cartroons featuring a wide range of artistic genres ranging from the very commercial to more artistic.
    He basically made the first magna.
    He was highly influenced by Disney's and FLiescher's characters. His take on their characters led the foundations of the "anime style".

    If you look closely at his Astroboy series, you can see a bit of early mickey mouse and some of betty boop style to it.

    I look at anime as a genre that has adapted through the years just as any other animation out there.
    Yes there are some pretty shitty animes out there, but there are tons of shitty American cartoons that have been produced through the years as well.

    I would have to say the best animated feature of anime would have to be Spirited Away. Hiyao Miyazaki is one incredible artist!


  22. #51
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    I just realized something else.
    The 'wonderfully shaded old anime' looks quite americanized.


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    Only hentai is real art.

    Strange coincidence that every man whose skull has been opened had a brain.

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    Machzero - Yeah, indded there are some unfair comparisons between ovas and tv series there. That's because I was rushed... but as I've said before, Hokuto no Ken's later episodes look as good if not better than the 80s examples I've used... and that's a TV series. Dragonball Z is a TV series and has shading easily on par with the examples, too. The amazing thing is that shading of this level wasn't confined to OVAs, but can be seen in all manner of 80s Tv series too.
    On the other hand, Hellsing and other modern OVA series look about the same as the TV examples. They don't have any more shading; they just move a bit smoother.

    Brandan N - Spirited Away is excellent, but looks no different to any of Ghibli's earlier character design work or shading. They're the *only* studio whose stuff still looks as good as it did. I watched Grave of the Fireflies the other day, and yes, it is extremely comparable to Spirited Away. Ghibli are just great.
    On the contrary, compare the recent movie Steam Boy (in development for 10 years) to the team's earlier Akira, and Steam Boy looks extremely nasty in comparison. Budget restraints, I guess.

    Ah.Heng- You said it! Lol. It's not that anime directors make a conscious choice to make everything grey and bland (as many fans of modern stuff choose to believe), but that they don't have the money anymore. The 80s was the golden era of anime because it was the height of Japan's economic boom.

    JenZee - Macross Zero is easily the best CG there is. I just don't really feel anything at all when I look at CG is the problem. I know that all they had to do was build one model of a Valkyrie, and that's most of the work done. Mac Plus, on the other hand, required redrawing the planes on every single frames, and the choreography is still light years ahead of Zero. Oh well...

    Denart - If by 'style' you mean less skill, less colour, less detail and less movement, you're absolutely right. You should look at some of the old 80s camera work... I was watching Space Adventure Cobra the other day, and two people were talking as they opened a door. The camera aoomed around them 360 degrees as they talked, tracked in on the key and followed it into the lock - just for a conversation scene. In modern anime, that would have clearly been two still faces with only their mouths moving. Come on, you know *that's* true, at least!

    Arne - It's an odd one, that. It's actually a girl in the series, but she's meant to look like a guy and confuse everyone.

    Kallisti - Thing is, there are hundreds of 80s anime shows with good stories AND good artwork. So why should I bother watching some new show that has a good story and no decent artwork? That's the glory of anime - there's so many billions of titles that I never have to run out of old stuff to watch for the first time. Don't get me wrong... Full Metal Alchemist was excellent up until they diverged from the manga, but it was still pig ugly. Why bother with it, when I can watch Bubblegum crisis and have my eyes actually bleed because the artwork is so ridiculously good?

    HunterKiller -that's another good point. People say "all 80s anime was girls with big eyes," but they just haven't had their eyes own open. There were a plethora of vastly differing styles in 80s anime... Buichi Terasawa in particular drew very western looking characters, and Golgo 13 was more American looking than a lot of US comics. It's odd, but modern anime all looks the same to me. Grey, with big pocking lips and badly drawn eyes.

    IILooney - You actually make a very good point. Nowadays, it's only modern hentai art that still looks anything like old anime. So yeah, only hentai is real art! Lol

    And finally, have a lok at this. I tried adapting one of my characters into the new anime style, adhering strictly to the shading and linework of several screenshots of Paradise Kiss. The result is accurate, and makes me want to die so the pain will go away.

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  25. #54
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    Paul, overlooking the fact that your “modern style” drawing looks like you crafted it with deliberate sloppiness and haste to prove your own point, still, the amount of time invested in a piece does not equate to its worth.

    You also seem to be overlooking the fact that all anime is "modern". The differences in style that happen over mere decades isn't even going to register as a blip in the continuum of art history.

    Animation is expensive to make. So what if there’s a lot of low-quality animation being made? It keeps the public interested in the genre, and ensures that money keeps flowing into the industry. Out of the masses of crap arises the occasional gem – as with every other media.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

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  26. #55
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    Paul, I did a little experiment. I thought to myself, "self, I bet his date for the Decline of Anime corresponds exactly with his early twenties." Then I checked your profile. Bingo!
    There is way too much reading to do in this thread, but I'm glad i stuck around long enough for this paragraph. Cracked me up.

    And Paul, it looks like you simply prefer heavy saturation to high key value schemes when deciding between good and bad. I'm not going to state my preference, but in most cases, more is not necessarily better.

    Last edited by Mike Dutton; December 1st, 2006 at 04:25 AM.

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    My opinion?

    The old animes look plain ugly to me. The shading is too dramatic, too saturated as well the style the faces are drawn are just simply... not to my taste. The lines are blocky and overall I don't like the composition and the highly "dramatic" effects.

    I admit it's better drawn and used more time in shadows and lights.

    The modern anime, however... it looks comfortable to my eye, the lines are smooth, the colors don't hurt my eyes. It's balanced as well the colors look natural. Also instead of using 500 extra hours on creating shadows that barely no one notices, they (hopefully) have used more time in storylines and such.


  28. #57
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    I liked the old days better, tomatoes tasted like tomatoes cos they were grown by real farmers and the women didn't go around wearing next to nothing...

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    this really comes down to a matter of personal taste.

    I think alot of the stuff from back in the 80's looks like busy, over cluttered junk that shouldn't see the light of day again.

    and that alot of the stuff these days ...like, just for instance, FLCL, or ANYTHING by Miyazaki looks MILES ahead in terms of overall technique and animation than the others in the 80's could have even touched.

    Except for Akira.

    That is a man's man.

    In regards to what you pointed out in your first post:

    I would say in terms of shading, if a line is able to convey the depth of the form they are drawing in as simple a way as possible while still retaining enough information to recognize what it is (which, just from one of your examples, the boy the towel over his neck does), then more power to them. They have done their job, and don't need any extrenuous information, that would---like a stated earlier---clutter the image and make it look too busy when it doesn't need to be. Shading doesn't necessarily make something better.


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    IMO anime is ridiculous because it constricts everybody to drawing with very similar style. Yes, the the creators of the anime style did create art but some people that just copy the style are not, IMO.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rblitz7
    IMO anime is ridiculous because it constricts everybody to drawing with very similar style. Yes, the the creators of the anime style did create art but some people that just copy the style are not, IMO.
    I think you may have an ethnocentric view on this. I would call the copies practice, it's the same with anything else. Through practice you eventually come to your own conclusions about details and there's your style. It only constricts if you allow it to. The range of work I've seen in "anime" style is massive, some completely different from one another and some not, some using pencil and watercolour, some purely digital, some more manga influenced while others more animation influenced. It's actually using the word anime itself that is very constrictive. It's really no different then the kind of artwork you see here, some artists share similar qualities and some don't, this is no different.

    Watercolour and pencil, simple style: http://migi.moo.jp/
    Manga influence: http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~makofu/kuro_002.htm (the lotr fanart is amazing btw)

    See how these are vastly different from one another and yet alike? It is in no way less worthy of praise, it's just a different approach.

    I'd say for most it's hard to see asian work the same way as u.s. work because no one really gets to see the personal small works of the everyday joe who likes to draw and post it on the internet.


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