Perception of proportions

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Thread: Perception of proportions

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    Perception of proportions

    hello

    Recently, I completed some drawings, and I showed them to the people. Everyone found something wrong in proportions, lenght of the bodyes, etc...It's interesting that I did not changed nothing, because the subject was taken from photos.

    I draw since a lot of years, and in the beginning i thought that the fault was mine. My teachers told me: "You must achieve experience, after years your anatomyes will be right". But now, I suspect this:

    It's IMPOSSIBLE to obtain the PERFECT ANATOMY.

    Am I wrong? What's your experience? What a real artist should obtain?

    bye

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kublay
    Recently, I completed some drawings, and I showed them to the people. Everyone found something wrong in proportions, lenght of the bodyes, etc...It's interesting that I did not changed nothing, because the subject was taken from photos.
    I'd be very interested to see the drawings, alongside the photos if possible.


    Tristan Elwell
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    I dount that your drawings were the same millimeter for millimeter or in proportion of the photos, to check just use a lightboard. (I call them that, atleast)

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    @elwell

    Well here are some examples

    the first is the worst of all, I started from the original and after the suggestions of at least 6 people, I arrived to the final. Sincerely, the final pic is not human, but some people likes it...

    Perception of proportionsPerception of proportionsPerception of proportions

    errors in shoulder:

    Perception of proportionsPerception of proportions

    errors in head proportion, ear and hands:

    Perception of proportionsPerception of proportions

    etc..etc..etc...

    @drd
    I always use carbon copy. but that's not the matter. The matter is that I don't understand how the people will see the pictures.

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    To me, it looks as if everything is pretty much on the ball.

    I guess some people just see differently than others.

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    all in all your work is very good. On the first one of Xena, I think the only weak area of the figure is around the neck and shoulders. It's stiff. If you added in a bit more information from the reference photo, I think it would work better. Your painting needs to show her right cheek (our left), like Xena's photo. The pit below her adams apple is higher and larger. There's a darker shadow under her chin. Her right pectoral muscle is higher, with more shading. I know you're creating a different sense of light than the Xena photo, but even so, try and bring in a little more of these areas from the photo.

    Somehow all the robes and necklaces are obscuring the parts of her neck that would make her seem more natural if we could see them. You may want to consider rearranging this costume so we can see enough of her shoulder anatomy to unflatten it.

    In the third painting, the ear is too small. That's all I could see that's wrong with it.

    It's still an excellent illustration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kublay
    I always use carbon copy. but that's not the matter. The matter is that I don't understand how the people will see the pictures.
    Re: xena inspired pic; you rotated the torso of your painted figure to face more the viewer, whereas xena's is pointed about 45 degress to her left. Compare breasts. You kept the left shoulder and arm the same as in the ref but did not adjust it to the torso's angle so you get distortion.

    Your painting with the broad face-compressed skull and short neck makes your version with the broad shoulders, uh...not exactly heroic or attractive.

    2nd set; shoulders are throwing people off because you have shrunken heads; Danger of using badly cropped pics is you end up with a badly cropped painting. Seems like you got the smaller heads 'cuz you were trying to force fit the heads beneath the top edge.

    Same problem with the third. Just compare your left ear with the one in the ref. You force the proportions to fit the frame and you'll end up with distortion.

    ----------
    Suggestions to improve proportions and anatomy in general:

    - take life drawing classes
    - if you're going to improvise from a photo ref, make sure the rest of the body is posed consistent with the adjustment
    - post works in progress in forums like ca for some objective crits and feedback before going for the finish
    - you may want to analyze the anatomy of your refs before copying it
    - make your painting canvas size bigger than your ref, so you can avoid your tendency to follow a picture's borders closely

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    The only real thing wrong with your images is that you are copying someone else's art. Bla.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    What you are missing are the subtleties of the anatomy. For one example, in the dead lady's nose, there in the photo is a shift in the curve along the bridge of the nose. You did not record that. Instead, you are generalizing the very subtleties that make anatomical shapes more convincing. Everyone makes this mistake. I still do it! The trick is to remember the mistake and try to see the intricacy of the life before you, and not just a figure. Examining each part individually is a good start, while paying attention to the overall flow of the piece.

    Photographic reference is no guarantee of accuracy. Only repeated training of the eye to note tiny details in value, shape, angle and hue will lead to your goal.

    Your paintings are also lacking in contrast. Light falls in spots on your figures where shadows fall in the photo. This makes muscles look fake. You must develop an eye for value. Maybe you can try a grisaille piece for practice. Hmm, you might also state your gamut before beginning this piece. I know I am supposed to do this with every piece but I usually skip it. If I am having trouble, I do use this.

    A great book for you to pick up at the library would be Harley Brown's Eternal Truths For Every Artist. He addresses many of the issues you are having with these paintings, especially in his section on mistakes beginners make in rendering portraits.


    It is possible to obtain near perfect anatomy. Bouguereau is a good example, as is Michelangelo and many other dead masters.

    The best work for anatomy is drawing from a model. Photos will not give you the sense of three dimensions (or even four!) that the human eye relays from an actual human being in front of you.

    Best of luck to you.

    ---- - ó
    sehertu mannu narāṭu ina pānāt öagapīru ningishzidda
    abrahadabra
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    @drd

    This is why I opened the thread, to discuss about the perception of the proportions.

    @ArtEdGradStudent
    Well, so the point is: are the pictures excellent or are they bad. Because I don't understand how a pic can be both at the same time.

    @FlipMcgee
    In the third picture people did not say nothing to me. I did an experiment. I said that the ear (and others parts) are wrong and you agreed... This is real interesting, isn' it? Please, don't be upset for this, I'm stupid.

    @Seedling
    Your comment has not respect for my work.


    @LadyHydralis
    [you answered while i was writing, I edited the thread]
    you said interesting things, i'll buy that book.

    P.s. Michelangelo did not obtained perfections, his anatomy are invented, in most cases.

    -------------------

    Thank you all for you comments, it demonstrates that everyone has a different point of view and that someone can also be influenced...
    But in the end, this is not a discussion about one or three pictures (the final work section is adapt for this), it's a discussion about the perfection and perception.
    I think I did not explained myself. If someone else would contribuite to discussion, i think we should fix the attention to something different. I would ask question:

    Did you every do a perfect picture without imperfections? Is it possible to make a perfect picture?

    How errors contribuite to make a picture bad or good anyway?

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    LadyHydralisk's post was bang on.
    All I've got to say, is that when you say "Its impossible to obtain the perfect anatomy", you're putting up your own barrier that WILL hold you back.

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    We are artists, not doctors. So is your audience. (except a few doctors of course). So don't go for the perfect anatomy, go for the perfect impression of shape and shadow. The perfect harmony between those two in your vision will give a better result and will give it something original instead of going for uber anatomy.

    Remember, anatomy is a basic understanding, you then try to build further upon what you know of it unless you are trying to become an anatomy book designer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kublay
    @Seedling
    Your comment has not respect for my work.
    True. Because I do have respect for you as a budding artist, I cannot also have respect for your chosen method of work.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kublay
    Is it possible to make a perfect picture?

    How errors contribuite to make a picture bad or good anyway?
    If it looks good, it is good. Things are only right or wrong within the context of the picture. As long as an image is internally consistent and believable, it's good. Anything that distracts the viewer and takes them out of the picture is bad.

    Your problem is that you're letting the reference do the thinking for you.


    Tristan Elwell
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    @kian
    A barrier created by myself, that's interesting.

    @Melancholie
    Ok, I'll try to make next pictures using armony, instead of recreate or copy the model. I think that they will not be anatomically correct, but it's an interesting suggestion.

    @Elwell
    "Your problem is that you're letting the reference do the thinking for you". is a good concept, but it makes me scared. But If I understood your phrase, the only way is to use the brain better than ever.

    thx all

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    Seedling, I'm not sure he's calling his work art. I think the first one is enough of a departure from the reference, that I wouldn't call it a copy. The next two are copies, but as it's for a class, they're really just exercises, and so long as he learns something from it, I have no problem. I do it too just to help learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtEdGradStudent
    Seedling, I'm not sure he's calling his work art. I think the first one is enough of a departure from the reference, that I wouldn't call it a copy. The next two are copies, but as it's for a class, they're really just exercises, and so long as he learns something from it, I have no problem. I do it too just to help learn.
    Iím not privy to the specifics of the assignment, so all I can do is respond to the art (whether or not it is called ďartĒ Ė for the love of garden gnomes please donít derail a critique with a debate about what constitutes art) and the request for comments on proportions. I said that I see nothing wrong with the proportions. Taadaa! What I do see are meticulous copies of video stills. This, I feel, is a waste of time for anyone who wishes to learn the skills of an illustrator. It takes years of study of still-life, anatomy, color theory, lighting, and composition for an artist to get to the point where he or she can reliably arrange and render figures from imagination to tell a story. Shortcutting that process by copying stills will get instant-gratification results but wonít speed up the process of getting there by the long and reliable route.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    If it looks good, it is good. Things are only right or wrong within the context of the picture. As long as an image is internally consistent and believable, it's good. Anything that distracts the viewer and takes them out of the picture is bad.

    Your problem is that you're letting the reference do the thinking for you.

    Agreed

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    @ArtEdGradStudent

    You are right!!


    @Seeding

    There are thousand of ways to create an illustration.
    Sometimes it's usefull to copy from reality, sometimes it is not. Sincerely, I prefer to invent, but sometimes it's also necessary to copy, other times I use a pic only for reference.

    I'm sure that you are a good guy and you did not like offend me or my work, but before to say that it's a waste of time, you should ask me: Why do you do those horrible pics?
    My answer: I did the pics to become a better illustrator. I'm not an artist, I want to make a product for a committent or everyone who ask me a specific painting. You can see, after years and years of drawings I'm still in trouble for some details, that's why I opened this thread, because i'm going still crazy after approx. 12 years of decent (or more probably indecent) studies

    I'll explain why I did the pictures:

    Body of the man: I did a speed paint to take confidence with oils after some years of non use, the last time I used oils was to the IED (I graduated to a 4 year academy of illustration, 8 year ago, since then I still draw in cg or classic ways. Generally I use tempera, acrylic, photosop etc... but not oils.
    Two pics you see aren't artistic, nor illustration. They are only an exercise of practice and it was useful.

    The pic of xena's death was still a study, I tryed to use oils and modify only a few of details adding light.

    The third pic is the last step. I used a reference, I painted with oils and I modified it with photoshop. This is a (bad?) illustration, this is not a copy , this is not art.

    btw, sincerely, I created thousands of drawings, you can see a litte part of them on my website (www.mauriziogemelli.com ). Ok, some are nicer, some are disgusting...

    ... but the point is:

    I don't know how do you draw, but every illustrator copy subjects in the beginning and, sometimes "in the middle" (lamers at the end... eheh).
    I'm not a decent illustrator like you , so SOMETIMES I copy because I need to remember the things that I suppose to know. If I don't do this exercise, I forget anatomy and millions of things, copying is useful to refresh the library of objects in my mind.

    I opened this thread not to talk about one or three pictures (they asked me to show some works). I opened the thread to talk about the proportion IN GENERAL. The discussion is how to obtain better drawings,and if we can make the most possible people happy seeing our drawings.

    I hope that my explanation is right. If you don't agree with me that's ok, I'll not die today, I understand your point of view. But you ,please, try to understand my point of view.

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    If you think youíre getting something worthwhile out of this drill, then go bananas with it. Whatever medium you want to use is up to you. As for whether this is art or not, I donít give a flying frell. Call it ďFredĒ if you wish. I donít know where you got the idea that I care about the distinction between art and other stuff. What you have made are images, and I participate here in order to help people become better image-makers. Take my advice or donít; itís up to you. At any rate, Iíve derailed this quite enough. By all means please get back to a nice chewy discussion on proportions.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
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    there are 1000 options actually
    you can draw from life , you can invent, you can invent and then reference for some verisimilitude of reality....and the all the combinations and degrees of the above. It depeds entirely on what your learning goals are... we are merely trying to assertain what your goals are withthis project and direct our commentary towards those goals. If you are asking for opinions on these things from the peole here on CA they are always freely given and readily available. you should be aware that some of the people who respond to you may be professional artists in the field you chose to pursue, they are volunteering their time and expertise and should be treated wiht respect. And since you don't actually know which those are, its a good idea around here to treat everyone as more knowledgable than oneself,

    That being said:
    There are numerous sources for ideal proportions, and angles and compositions of your subject. And I understand copying as an exercise in analysis , as an end towards learning something. But the needed end result is the ability to look at your own drawings and see that something is awwry, analyse that awkwardness and fix it so thatt the porportion is not what people see, but rathher it aids in comunicating the subject of your work...

    so by all means learn the rule sof human anatomy and proportion. learn to apply it your work will benefit from it. My personal rule of thumb is, if it looks awkward, stiff or wrong...it probably is.... even if you copies it....chances are you moved something just a little... I always do.
    draw more
    faster
    chaos

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    @chaosrock
    If I offended someone I excuse. Maybe that I did not understood his/her words (my language is not english). I'll limit my answers.
    Thanks you all again.

    So, do you say that ability is a sum of experience in drawing? I dont' know, maybe that there's a limit of time for everyone. If a drawer draws 1000 pics of the head and they comes bad, maybe that he must find another way. Or maybe that there's not limit (Kian said) and the drawer needs over 50 years to draw well.

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    I think perhaps there is no limit on the learning and change one can accomplish. if you draw the head 1000 times and it is still bad, you are not learning or growing. if you have a revelation and look really hard and change what you do. it is always new and different. maybe thats what it took for the 1001 th time to be better....

    to quote James Stephens
    "Perfection is finality and finality is death..."
    so no there is no Perfect...but there is damn close!

    chaos
    I dunno I have infinit belief in the human capacity to learn and grow

    To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in an hour.

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    i think that you have an inherant diffulty in the method you use.

    most people fail to rememeber that photos are alsomst always wrong.
    the camera is an odd device with very unusualt quirks in how it reproduces an image. we are so used to these quirks that we embrace them as real.

    because you work purely in this way, you are cheating your self out of anatomy lessons. in creating the image from the ground up, you'd begin to get a feel for the flow of the human form. then when you went back to your current technique, you would be able to correct the photos as you reproduced them, exagerating key element,s editing others, increasing the
    impact of the image. by copying the pose or otherkey elements, you are missing opertunities. Every stroke is a result of a decision, you are missing out on the oppertunity to increase the impact of these images, because you are locked in to the decisions made by the photographer.

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    When looking at photos I think it mostly helps to only see it from a gestural point of view and then build it up in your mind dimensionally.

    Definitely drawing from life. If you're in a situation where you can take life drawing sessions I highly recommend it, you will be able to see your incremental progress and how you've gotten better or worse. Especially if you can take a class on 30 second - 5 minute pose studies. Study the figure, study proportions. It's crucial that you're able to see what you're doing wrong, and have flow. You need a consciousness for what your brain is telling your hands to do, check yourself every step of the way.

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