it can happen here...

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Thread: it can happen here...

  1. #1
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    it can happen here...

    Thought I'd post a bit of inflammatory comments. I don't often watch TV (don't have cable at home) and so news reach me through the net (when I bother) or through family and friends and occasionally I see it on TV when a guest in someones house. Quite often the news is about how USA is slowly becoming an imperial power or a fascist state. You read some posts around here and it's quite often something or other that the Dubya Administration is doing wrong. Well today I heard about Cheney's torture remark.


    Anyway, the thing it reminded me of is this book called "It can't happen here".

    I don't know if anyone here has read it or not but I think that although people make fun of alarmists it's a good analogy to what is happening in US today. I'm not implying that it would happen exactly the same way as in the book, but I am saying that believing that it can't happen here is like putting on a pair of blinders and chanting to yourself that everything is ok while the freedoms that US is founded upon are ever so slowly being pulled from under you. Anyway enough ranting... read the book if you like.

    Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
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  3. #2
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    Oh forgot about this... Support the good Cause

    Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
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    yeah well whether its a 'law' or not.. things happen that will happen.. and so long as no one knows, no reason to bring it up.. besides, ironically, most of the 'news' thats reported to the public is all tainted and controlled anyway.

    it's only after you've lost everything, that you're free to do anything..
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    You sound kind of ... fatalistic.

    Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
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    from that article, a quote by bush:
    We will interrogate people we pick up off the battlefield to determine whether or not they've got information that will be helpful to protect the country,"
    haha....

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG.
    yeah well whether its a 'law' or not.. things happen that will happen.. and so long as no one knows, no reason to bring it up.. besides, ironically, most of the 'news' thats reported to the public is all tainted and controlled anyway.
    de∑moc∑ra∑cy (d-mkr-s) Pronunciation Key
    n. pl. de∑moc∑ra∑cies
    1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
    2.A political or social unit that has such a government.
    3.The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
    4.Majority rule.
    5.The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

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    de-ceit [di-seet] Pronunciation Key –noun
    n. adj. de-ceit-ful
    1. the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating: Once she exposed their deceit, no one ever trusted them again.
    2. an act or device intended to deceive; trick; stratagem.
    3. the quality of being deceitful; duplicity; falseness: a man full of deceit.

    [Origin: 1225–75; ME deceite < AF, OF, n. use of fem. of deceit, ptp. of deceivre to deceive]

    it's only after you've lost everything, that you're free to do anything..
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    Guess you'd be voting for the Democrats in the mid-term election?

    Won't an impeachment take a long time? Bush has only two years left anyway. Besides, I'm pretty sure no one's in a hurry to be the next president of USA right now, I can't imagine how anyone can properly resolve the Iraqi quagmire.

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    Person A: How else can we get needed information from terrorists then to use persuasive methods which (mentally) break them, allowing us to extract valuable information which can help save the lives of innocents?

    Person B: Torture is inhumaine and has no place in a civilized society. You can't defeat fire with fire.


    Both people are right. This is a sad reality. Choose your poison, both opinions lead to the death of innocent lives.

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    Aaaaaanyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue
    Person A: How else can we get needed information from terrorists then to use persuasive methods which (mentally) break them, allowing us to extract valuable information which can help save the lives of innocents?

    Person B: Torture is inhumaine and has no place in a civilized society. You can't defeat fire with fire.


    Both people are right. This is a sad reality. Choose your poison, both opinions lead to the death of innocent lives.
    Very true. But I think a happy medium would at least be a better path. You know, making torture an absolute last resort and not trying to hide it. If it wouldn't make the process take four times as long, have an impartial commitee judge if it's necessary. Something to make it less seem like we're (A) doing it to any enemy soldier we find for the hell of it, behind everyones backs, (B) or letting vital information slip away. Of course, as far as our government is concerned, even the idea of seeing the world in more than black and white is somehow treason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG.
    de-ceit [di-seet] Pronunciation Key –noun
    n. adj. de-ceit-ful
    1. the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating: Once she exposed their deceit, no one ever trusted them again.
    2. an act or device intended to deceive; trick; stratagem.
    3. the quality of being deceitful; duplicity; falseness: a man full of deceit.

    [Origin: 1225–75; ME deceite < AF, OF, n. use of fem. of deceit, ptp. of deceivre to deceive]

    that comeback gave me a good chuckle

    Edit:
    I think people have a way of making things black and white cutt and paste... But human nature is just a big gray spot. Sometimes bad things happen to other people for a means to an end... sometimes their right in doing so because of circumstance and other times their wrong.... What we see as right one day we can totally disagree with the next. In politics and opinion... I think you walk a fine line of choosing the lesser of 2 evils.

    Last edited by rorke; October 28th, 2006 at 12:20 AM.
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    Thanks lapalida looks like an interesting read.

    A lot of people use the president as the poster boy for the supposed problems we are having in this country. One thing about this book though is it was written in 1935, when the president (I'm not to sure) could be voted into office more than twice. If it was like that today, then ofcourse I think it could be possible we would end up like that. I'm not one of those people who plug their ears and sing to themselves, but I try not to take things to far on either side because at the moment I'm very skeptical of any groups intentions.

    Besides, it's only 2 more years, I'm sure we'll be fine. But, it's good to have all these people covering these issues. It keeps people on their toes, just cut it out with smear campaigns already and provide some more objective/thoughtful information for a change, damn. It's like little kids on television repeatedly calling each other stupid.

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    Person A: How else can we get needed information from terrorists then to use persuasive methods which (mentally) break them, allowing us to extract valuable information which can help save the lives of innocents?
    False. Torture does not lead to "valuable information". Otherwise the witch trials in the Middle Ages proved undeniably that there really are witches and they served the Lord Satan and planned to take over the world or whatever. See torture DOES NOT WORK. People under duress give the answers that the torturer wants to hear. Besides true religious fanatics (or even other people truly devoted to a cause - soldiers in WW2 for example) would rather die (and many did) than reveal their plans, the 40 virgins and life everlasting with the creator are much more appealing than just a few weeks of torture to those who cannot be reasoned with. So are you willing to pay this price (since torture is not only traumatic for the subject but it also dehumanizes the torturer giving him psychological damage) for a false confession?

    Last edited by LaPalida; October 28th, 2006 at 03:55 AM.
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    I'm not one of those people who plug their ears and sing to themselves, but I try not to take things to far on either side because at the moment I'm very skeptical of any groups intentions.
    I agree but what would you say if (this is ofcourse unfounded and wild speculation) the prez passes some law that let's him stay another term? Would you be for or against this?

    Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
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    Ofcourse! But it seems very unlikely.

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    did anyone here see "Road to Guantanamo" ?
    true story of three brits who were seen as terrorists and got into Guantanamo "prison".
    And then read again what Bush said in this article "this country does not torture"
    It makes me SICK

    bah
    love
    Marleen

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    The American Goverment always proofe that it is different , but not any better than certain eastern countries...

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    When I read the first post it was like I was watching 'Reading Rainbow' again. Whatever happened to Levar Burton anyhow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida
    False. Torture does not lead to "valuable information".
    Uhm....I never said torture.

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  21. #20
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    [QUOTE=JERI]Guess you'd be voting for the Democrats in the mid-term election? ..QUOTE]


    no way. BOTH of those parties have serious problems. actually, the current level of this entire system of government is completely fubar. it kinda sucks cuz what ends up happening is most people 'vote for the lesser of two evils'.. but WHY?? why settle for that at all?? why not vote for something else entirely?? you know, make a change cuz clearly this nonsense is dragging us staright to the ground..

    unfortunately, theres not 'another option to vote for' currently [not any that would really make the necessary changes] but thats reason enough to step back and re-think it and MAKE other options available..

    "you can wish in one hand and shit in the other.. and see which one fills up first" - grumpier old men

    - JAG

    it's only after you've lost everything, that you're free to do anything..
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    There is no doubt in my mind it would be impossible for Bush to pass legislation that allows him an extension of his terms. Maybe a much much much much much more successful prez, but be realistic; The Presidential term limit is dictated by an amendment, and any legislation that would go against that is thusly unconstitutional. An amendment such as the 21st, which repealed the prohibition of alcohol (the 18th) is almost a total impossiblity, seeing as how I believe 2/3rds of both chambers of Congress have to agree, and I can almost 100% Garuntee not even 1/3rd of Either chamber likes Bush enough to allow him to go for longer.

    In the end, with politics, it will almost always be the lesser of 2 evils.

    And let's keep in mind; We are a (federal) Republic, the word Democracy is not anywhere in the Constitution. I think we now (thanks to the Middle East and Bush) Refer to any nation that has a popularly elected head of state (Ourselves, Isreal) as a 'democracy'. A true Democracy (Direct democracy) would be more like Classical Greece, where the citizens created and passed laws together, etc. literally.

    I'm rambling now, forgot what I was saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG.
    no way. BOTH of those parties have serious problems. actually, the current level of this entire system of government is completely fubar. it kinda sucks cuz what ends up happening is most people 'vote for the lesser of two evils'.. but WHY?? why settle for that at all?? why not vote for something else entirely?? you know, make a change cuz clearly this nonsense is dragging us staright to the ground..
    Quote Originally Posted by Kang&Kodos
    "It's a two-party system; you have to vote for one of us!"
    it can happen here...

    I was actually talking to LaPalida . You have a point about boycotting the election, but even when more than half of the country doesn't vote (as in the 2004 election), someone's still gonna become president. So it becomes 50/50 for you whether you get the lesser evil. If you're boycotting for the principle, all cool; but if you're boycotting for the effects, well - guess there's reason to settle for that nonsense after all.

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    I think it kind sucks how low the US's voter turnout is- but then again we have no penalty for not voting like some countries.

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    Since I'm not from US I won't be voting for either. Pity, but yeah I would pick democrats over republicans any day (almost). I despise the religious right and they mostly benefit when republicans are in office. I am not saying I'm a liberal but I have liberal tendencies. I think I agree with JAG on the issue of the crap two party system. I mean it's the same shit in Canada...on one hand you have Liberal Crooks who steal your money and on the other hand you have Conservative Racists who hate gays blacks and women. I didn't vote for Liberals this year because they fucked us pretty bad during their term so I threw my vote away by voting for the Marijuana party.

    I think it kind sucks how low the US's voter turnout is- but then again we have no penalty for not voting like some countries.
    The rough statistics are: people vote their age. So 70% of 70 year olds or 20% of 20 year olds vote.

    Uhm....I never said torture.
    Well that's true. So what is this "persuasive method" that you are referring to then if it's not torture? And how is your comment relevant at all if that's not what you referred to (no one is complaining about simple interrogation)? In your example you place person A vs. person B as if they are opposed to each other. Why are they two different poisons if the first one is not pro torture? Is this a problem of miscommunication on your part or are you just shifting goal posts?

    When I read the first post it was like I was watching 'Reading Rainbow' again. Whatever happened to Levar Burton anyhow?
    Love that show.

    Last edited by LaPalida; October 29th, 2006 at 02:23 AM.
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    Hahaha, they have a marijuana party in Canada too?

    Down here, we got a Legalise Cannabis Party (with a surprising large number of candidates eligible for MP election).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Oaksford
    we have no penalty for not voting like some countries.
    You do know who's in the oval office, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Oaksford
    we have no penalty for not voting like some countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by cotron
    You do know who's in the oval office, right?
    hahaaaahaa!! unfortunately thats so on point...

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