crit center is inherently flawed WIP
Join the #1 Art Workshop - LevelUpJoin Premium Art Workshop

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 46
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Unhappy crit center is inherently flawed WIP

    let me say first that i am new here and i applaud and thank the creators of this site for their
    labor of love.

    in the spirit of the positive criticism expected in this forum however, and looking at this site as a WIP in and of itself, i offer the following in the hope that it will not offend and will be welcomed as legitimate food for thought.

    i have been an art teacher off and on for some time.
    and ive learned that the the crit is a fragile thing.
    one would hope in a site such as this, which is geared primarily toward the industry and employment, that crits would be offered by insiders both on technical levels and with the benefit of industry insight. while this certainly can be found at CA it is sadly rare...most of the crits come from the newest and greenest among us, and as such are 50% correct at best. i have noticed that most crits are uneducated and well just flat out wrong at least half the time...critics are instructed to give thoughtful technical assessments as opposed to the ubiquitous "wow..very cool!" but the deeper critiques are often way off base..incorrect color theory to wrong perspective to wrong insider info.

    clearly an alternative to the current system isn't an easy thing to imagine, given the sheer volume of members in desperate need of direction, and the inherent business of any employed insider.

    but currently the crit center is more of an exercise in participation in the abstract than any useful learning tool it was clearly meant to become.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,035
    Thanks
    2,167
    Thanked 3,344 Times in 1,123 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Well, as it's been said before, usually those who are informed will give a comment on something that looks wrong + their suggestion, and those who aren't usually just point out a flaw.

    Also, if you see a comment that appears incorrect, please feel free to correct them.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    well i have personally tried to correct wrong or naive crits several times. but i imagine this leaves the artist in question with contradictory info, leaving them stuck in the middle where they started. They simply have no real way of knowing who's comments carry more weight.
    in addition the shear volume of naive crits, extra-systemic solutions should be at least considered

    bare in mind this is NOT a criticism of the Ca elite..or their level of involvement. this is a crit of the model we currently have for the crit center.

    i believe that a new system would enable them to share knowledge more efficiently and perhaps more importantly, prevent misinformation from tainting newbies

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    75
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj
    They simply have no real way of knowing who's comments carry more weight.
    Can't they just check out the users gallery, and see who knows what they're talking about?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,035
    Thanks
    2,167
    Thanked 3,344 Times in 1,123 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I don't think that someone needs to be particularly skilled to give a crit, or at least point out a flaw. Though it would take someone with a little bit of knowledge to offer a decent suggestion.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    shanghai, china
    Posts
    1,849
    Thanks
    288
    Thanked 555 Times in 410 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Well, first off: This should be in the lounge. This post is in the critique center. Way to follow the directions.

    Secondly, it's pretty easy for most people to get what they need out of the critique center. Sure some critiques may not be the best, but people are trying to help. It is pretty easy for me to say "well that doesn't sound right" and look at the critiquer's personal works, and go "ah, that's why" or "they must know something I don't"

    Fundamentally this is great. There used to not even be a critique center, people needing help would just have posts sink down to the abyss. The real problem is people not following the guidelines of the critique center. *cough*ahem*cough*

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    132
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I think this is the first time in my life I've ever heard of a "wrong" critique!

    Way back in the day when I was in art school... everyone was encouraged to take part in critiques... whether they were experienced or not... as the entire critique process was a learning exercise for the critiqued... AND the one giving the critique..... has this changed? At what point is someone qualified to critique someone elses work? I am sure alot of art critics out there are not artists themselves.....

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    434
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 33 Times in 7 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    no critique that was intended to help the artist can ever be wrong.

    they might not give the best advice but if something doesnt look right any pair of eyes can see it. some may be able to tell you better how to fix it but every one here is trying to help eachother so i dont think theres anything that can ber wrong about it.

    if you get on a plane and the pilot crashes it into the terminal you know hes not doing it right. you may not be able to tell him how to do it better but you still now that what hes doing now is not the best way of doing it.

    never updated sketchbook

    hopefully weekly updated blog
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Californication land
    Posts
    1,838
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 345 Times in 141 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Rhineville is absolutely right, and so is Texahol, this belongs in the Lounge. and by the way, theres already a thread on something similar there, which I started and has officially gone to crap.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thus everyone is entitled to make their own critique on a piece. Interpretation of such will vary from the ignorant " what is this?" to the vague " cool!" or the naive " you should..." and then theres the good crits based on observation, education, and overall expertise. To be observant one does not need to be highly educated. To make an educated comment takes more common sense than what education can grant, To make a critique based on ones expertise does not gurantee that the next "expert" will agree on your comment.
    Therefore we welcome all critiques at CA, wether it be a newbie or a highly experienced proffesional. Because sometimes the voice which makes the loudest roar is the smallest mouth in the room. ( my baby will bouche for that)

    I for one welcome your critique on my work, and invite you to review, paint over, or/and contact me over any issues I may have on my work. Because after all, some of us are not lucky enough to have attended a university, thereof CA is my university.

    J.L. ALFARO


    "Be who you are and say what you feel,because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind."
    -Dr. Seuss


    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    there certainly are "wrong critiques" when assessing the technical side.
    but when addressing the aesthetic you are absolutely right. my assumption was that most people asking for critiques primarily crave technical help...perspective, color theory, anatomy etc to which there is a right and a wrong.

    i think you are speaking about Art with a capital A in which case i agree completely. but many of us view this an industry forum

    as far as posting this in the section Texahol...i do apologize i thought i was being clever by critiquing the critique center as a WIP.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    496
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I understand your concern, but I don't think what you're talking about is a problem unique to this forum, nor one we can do much about. Even professional artists, and, yes, teachers, give off base critiques from time to time. In a freeform setting like this, it's difficult to ascertain, but anybody who comes looking for critiques should also know how to use them. Even if you only get proper opinions, they're useless if you can't apply that knowledge.

    I think when you see a crit you don't agree with or feel is baseless, you should just lead by example instead of attacking it. As a teacher, isn't that something you can agree with me on?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santiago
    Posts
    1,795
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 134 Times in 70 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Kingshaj, I agree.


    In my humble opinion, the critique center peeked in 2005, right after it became a section of it´s own instead of being a sub-forum of the WIP and sketches section...

    There, only a few proffecional artist were interested enough to give crits, the popular section was sketches and W.I.P.

    Problem was that it could be days before someone said something in there and not many dared to post their pics to be critisized, but despite all that, I owe the section the biggest boost on technical knolegde I had to date.


    Now the critique center was intented to turn popular( since mid-2006), and this site also became insanely polular aswell, so there is a larger flow and less control about what is said or how should be said in this place.

    There is no much it can be done, maybe a sticky, new guidelines, more mods in this section ( some of the mobs assigned to this section have also become incleasingly bussy with the pass of time, for their fortune of course ). But in your individual case, please don´t be afraid to point out "wrong technical critiques", people may folow your example or be more carefull about what they say.

    Also is a good idea to let people know you are in fact a teacher ...It was a clever idea to place this in the critique center.

    I for one thank you for the interversion. ( don´t mind my typos)

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 1,436 Times in 259 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    This is just like a college classroom: the students critique along with the teachers. Everybody learns.

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

    Red face

    first: i dont want to give the impession that i am putting down the naive critique-ers or suggesting that they dont take part (that would be terrible) or lauding experts. but as in the classroom setting the pressence of moderation is necessary



    im certainly not attacking anyone or anything...i have to say that all critiques here are clearly well intentioned and well meaning...not deserving attack of any kind. just tryna help. I just see alot of folks "unfixing" their art following bad TECHNICAL advice taking a promising piece to a place where it has more problems than when it was first offered.. (haven't you?) they often arrive with a specific question "what's wrong with the charecter's head...please help!!" and i see enough examples of well intentioned, good people giving an answer that exacerbates or creates new technical issues. and it isn't just about that one piece, people learn far more from a correct practical implementable solution. they will never forget the info that led to that successful piece...ever
    i feel proud to be a member of this site and my suggestion was not meant to offend but to stimulate thought about improvement. or new angles to look at the issue from...

    i think that we all share enough imagination not to rule out the posibilty of new and better visions of a critique center.think CA 3007

    Last edited by kingshaj; October 24th, 2006 at 06:05 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,432
    Thanks
    643
    Thanked 1,484 Times in 719 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    So assuming that the current system is inherently flawed, do you have a suggestion to fix it?

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    234
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Let me tell you about myself, as I'm 18 right now, been drawing seriously since 13 and found out about this site at 14-ish. Been coming here ever since (slight gap here and there).

    So I kind off grew up as an artist here on CA, at least it was influential. Two things being my grasp of english and forum whoring.

    But it also learned me to be critical on my work, to look at my work from different perspectives. As which was mostly the case when multiple people would comment on your stuff.
    It learned me that no matter how good something looks, it can always be improved upon.
    Even though it's true that some 'improvements' could only worsen the piece, or that's it's debatable on what could be improved, it all still is important knowledge to share and commute.

    Because that knowledge may or may not be used, if it is 'wrong' then that'll be mostly learned later on and adjusted accordingly. No harm no foul.

    Even if it isn't used, it still is important to take acount of what other people think, no matter their status whatsoever. They're still people who look at your work and develop an opinion on it. As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is mostly the beholder the one you make your art for.
    Composition is to make it easier on the eye for the beholder, to manipulate, again, the beholder.

    In my language we've got a saying: "The best sailors are on the pier/dock."
    Meaning that those who are the most unbiased and univolved are often the 'best' in noticing things which the 'professional' wont.
    Which is why they do beta tests for games for example, or any other product.

    True this doesn't go for comtemptual art, but it does for illustration and conceptual art.

    My few cents.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,881
    Thanks
    286
    Thanked 1,436 Times in 259 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggles
    Even professional artists, and, yes, teachers, give off base critiques from time to time.
    That's a really good point.

    Part of the whole critique process is learning to tell the good advice from the bad, or the useful advice from the unhelpful. Sometimes advice should be immediately applied to a piece. Sometimes it should be applied to the next piece. Sometimes it should be applied to someone else's piece, or nobody's. And it isn't only n00bs(tm) who give advice of the latter sorts.

    I would like to think that the advice I give is mana from the flying spaghetti monster, but I know for a fact that what I have to say is not helpful to everyone.

    Ramen!

    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santiago
    Posts
    1,795
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 134 Times in 70 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Flake
    So assuming that the current system is inherently flawed, do you have a suggestion to fix it?
    Seems that everyone is keeping him bussy with assumsions and defensive behaiviour instead.


    Assuming any system isnīt flawed is to stop itīs evolution towards something better, suggestions and critiques should be welcomed, specially when put in such polite manner.

    Please people get off his back and let him finish , he as apoligized like 4 times for "not"-insulting anyone.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    again im not saying we shouldn't have a crit center
    nor should we prohibit any members from participating

    critiques are a very powerful learning tool and career changing revelations can come freom any member new or old...of course ( i learned way way more form my students (generaly 11-12yo's) than i ever learned from my professors. (wich were also amazing)

    but i ask that we don't find it taboo to imagine improvements ...as we currently seem to
    i have found that in the real world, asking "can there be a better way?" is an invaluable survival skill.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,432
    Thanks
    643
    Thanked 1,484 Times in 719 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Shamagim, I'm not insulting anyone, nor am I "on anyones back", I'm simply asking if anyone has any concrete suggestions rather than a vague notion of "could be improved".

    Almost anything can be improved (great white sharks, the Fender stratocaster and boobs being the obvious exceptions), that's obvious but the real question is how?

    Last edited by Flake; October 24th, 2006 at 07:44 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santiago
    Posts
    1,795
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 134 Times in 70 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Flake
    Shamagim, I'm not insulting anyone, nor am I "on anyones back", I'm simply asking if anyone has any concrete suggestions rather than a vague notion of "could be improved".
    Yes, I know...I just tend to mix up the things I say to the person I quote with the ones I mean to say to everyone else . ( I do have some suggestions, but I preffer for this to develop further by kingshaj.)

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    welp,
    initialy i wanted to see if this sentiment was mine alone.
    as far as a concrete solution...yikes not so easy.
    tenitativly i think the answer lies in organizing a hierarchy of sub forums

    anatomy help
    perspective trouble
    etc.
    this may make the workload of a moderator keeping an ear on the crits in his section a bit more manageable

    bares alot more thought tho clearly....

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  23. #23
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kingshaj
    as far as posting this in the section Texahol...i do apologize i thought i was being clever by critiquing the critique center as a WIP.
    Too clever by half.
    Moved.
    Plus, there are already TWO stickies in the CC covering much the same points.
    Bottom line: This is an online forum, not a school. It's organic, anarchic, self defining, always evolving. There are moderators and admins, but by and large CA is governed with benign neglect and an invisible hand. It is what the forum members make of it. The Critique Center in it's current form is the result of a continuing, trial and error process. If you want to see a different quality/kind of crits, then lead by example.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    917
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 91 Times in 57 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Elwell, dude, seriously,

    you should write a bible.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    oakland
    Posts
    1,197
    Thanks
    279
    Thanked 200 Times in 122 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    it was a sincere attempt to "self define" and "evolve" and ot make of it what we make of it...
    albiet in the very wrong section for wich i sincerely aplogise. and realy do regret.
    i felt i had some good helpfull ideas...but in the future i will lead by example.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  26. #26
    Elwell's Avatar
    Elwell is offline Sticks Like Grim Death Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Hudson River valley, NY
    Posts
    16,212
    Thanks
    4,879
    Thanked 16,666 Times in 5,020 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Kingshaj, it's all good.


    Tristan Elwell
    **Finished Work Thread **Process Thread **Edges Tutorial

    Crash Course for Artists, Illustrators, and Cartoonists, NYC, the 2013 Edition!

    "Work is more fun than fun."
    -John Cale

    "Art is supposed to punch you in the brain, and it's supposed to stay punched."
    -Marc Maron
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    501
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 10 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Just to add my two cents, I agree with Scattergold. When I studied art in college and then in artschool (quite a few years ago now), the students were the primary critiquers of eachothers work. The teacher might add their opinion (& it may very well have carried more weight), but the students were the ones making the majority of the critical observations. All of us are, at some level, learning how to look at a piece of artwork critically and then apply that critical eye to our own work. So critiquing is just as much of a learning tool as making art. It's not just for the best among us.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    1,195
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    I've been temtped to start a thread almost like this one myself. Might get a tad of topic here. I've seen tons of critiques that just aren't helpful, like "something ain't right," or "that figure's pose is awkward." It's great that peeps are taking the time to reply, but some more thought and time would make a crit go so much further.

    One of the best critics around here (imvho) is mentler - you can practically read any single one of his crits, regardles of for whom it was written, and learn something from it. He often adresses technique and gives tips composition an the like.

    Not anyone can give universal and timeless crits as he often does, but sometimes if you take a little more time when critting you can be truly helpful, and you can learn some stuff yourself as well. I think 2 extremely helpful crits are far better than 10 vague ones.

    - d.

    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  29. #29
    Interceptor's Avatar
    Interceptor is offline Registered User Level 16 Gladiator: Spartacus' Retiarii
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    4,422
    Thanks
    497
    Thanked 677 Times in 248 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    On your point of crits giving incorrect information by some young / uneducated artists...

    Everything may not be entirely accurate, but it's at the very least getting people to realize that thier work is'nt always going to be perfect. And it also helps by seeing other people's methods of working and it helps to realize that there's more than 1 way to approach an idea.

    I'm not saying that it's a fantastic thing that some people might be getting false information though. But there is atleast a small silver lining to it. And there are alot of great crits that go through there anyways, like GregPro's recent paintovers that feel like you've just sat through a semester's worth of art school lectures.

    * Help a CA artist! Visit the Constructive Critique section! *


    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Encinitas
    Posts
    1,542
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    the main problem is that about 50% of the people here are here soley for the purpose to view "cool" art, not critique. the next largest group are those who do a lot of art and post it here, but are here for themselves. they want to get critiqued, and either dont have the knowledge to critique others, dont have the time, and or just dont care about helping others.

    the smallest groups are those who know what they are talking about and take the time to help others.

    theres simply no way to amke a section that has for the most part badly drawn art in there, get more responses then say a professionally done piece. people want eye candy, and they want it now. they dont want to take to time to help someone get a better piece.

    -=[ Sinister Six Sketch Group ]=-
    -=[ Cookiedough Fooxoo |ntern Hyver Character Evildisco]=-
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote  

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •