View Poll Results: Is professional critique valuable to the development of your art?

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  • Heck yes, I'd kill to have Frazetta give me critique!

    25 69.44%
  • It would be cool, but not entirely necessary.

    7 19.44%
  • Forums are good enough.

    3 8.33%
  • I could care less about what someone says about my work.

    1 2.78%
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  1. #1
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    1-on-1 Training With Professionals

    I was thinking the other day how cool it would be if professional artists (concept, comic book, etc) had 1-on-1 "coaching" for those of us who are not newbies, but also not in the big leagues. For instance, if I could speak on the phone with Feng Zhu for 30 minutes, with a piece of my work in front of him, and just let him talk to me about my process and how to improve overall...

    It seems that we have so many materials available to us in book format, with limited DVD (or other similar media) available -- but hardly any personal attention unless you're in an industry or get in line at a convention (and even then your time with them is sooo brief). Attention at a school/university can also be sporadic, assuming the professionals you really want to speak with teach there, and when you graduate it can be a hassle to obtain critique from them.

    Overall, I wanted to know if others had similar thoughts like this and also wanted to know how many of you have made the effort to get feedback from those who designed the posters on your wall. Do you think receiving feedback from those artists would be "better" or more useful than that of this forum?


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  3. #2
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    It's called the Conceptart.org workshops.. and it's alot longer than 30 minutes let me tell ya..


    Also I hope you realize people who have done work for companies like Wizards of the Coast, White wolf, etc.- They post all the time in the critique center. It's not just a forum, it's a movement man.

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    I guess I was thinking more along the lines of a distance learning situation where you don't have to travel to meet them. Those workshops look intense Can anyone who's gone comment on their experience?

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    I wish I had a million dollars

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    Overall, I wanted to know if others had similar thoughts like this and also wanted to know how many of you have made the effort to get feedback from those who designed the posters on your wall. Do you think receiving feedback from those artists would be "better" or more useful than that of this forum?
    From my understanding...judging by the posters on my wall - several of the people who made them are on these forums (or similar forums). The hard part is catching them when they have time to do critiques (obviously the industry best can't critique everyone that wants to be critiqued by them - they'd have to quit their jobs or not take on any new work *if freelance*). Just try and get to befriend them on here or IRC, or in person - remember the "professionals" are people just like all of us, not sacred dieties with godlike powers (debateable on the godlike powers maybe - at least in art).

    You can learn something from anyone critiquing your work:
    A critique by an non-artist or a new artist can usually tell you what they see wrong.
    A critique by an intermediate artist can usually tell you what they see wrong and why they think it looks wrong.
    A critique by a seasoned artist can usually tell you what they see wrong, why they think it looks wrong, and how they'd probably fix it .

    At least that's how I tend to look at critiques of my work if I know the other artist's level (if I don't know their level, I usually try and combine it into other critiques to verify certain things).
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingFanatic
    I guess I was thinking more along the lines of a distance learning situation where you don't have to travel to meet them. Those workshops look intense Can anyone who's gone comment on their experience?
    There is a whole subforum just for them, there are several threads about it, just gotta look around. (BTW I went to the most recent one.)


    The problem here is this;

    They are working pros, not teachers. Some are so busy they can't afford to spend much time here at all; Jason Manley doesn't hardly paint any more he's so busy. Aside from critiques HERE, ON THIS FORUM (Which are one on one, there is no traveling to meet them), the workshops are probably one of the only chances you will get to have any sort of 1 on 1 with the pros... Anyways; point is, They are too busy to deal with individual people; This forum is most convinient; You can't see pictures or paintovers over the phone you know. However there will soon be a 2 year atelier program designed around concept art in San Francisco, run by Massive Black (pretty much the owners of Conceptart). I believe the last info was 10 students for 2 year cycles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingFanatic
    I was thinking the other day how cool it would be if professional artists (concept, comic book, etc) had 1-on-1 "coaching" for those of us who are not newbies, but also not in the big leagues. For instance, if I could speak on the phone with Feng Zhu for 30 minutes, with a piece of my work in front of him, and just let him talk to me about my process and how to improve overall...

    It seems that we have so many materials available to us in book format, with limited DVD (or other similar media) available -- but hardly any personal attention unless you're in an industry or get in line at a convention (and even then your time with them is sooo brief). Attention at a school/university can also be sporadic, assuming the professionals you really want to speak with teach there, and when you graduate it can be a hassle to obtain critique from them.

    Overall, I wanted to know if others had similar thoughts like this and also wanted to know how many of you have made the effort to get feedback from those who designed the posters on your wall. Do you think receiving feedback from those artists would be "better" or more useful than that of this forum?
    You know what else would be cool? If I had a pony. A magic, talking pony that pooped out delicious strawberry sundays instead of poop, so you wouldn't have to clean up pony poop, just sit around eating ice cream and talking to the pretty pony all day.

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  9. #8
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    Oh BTW, beware of what you wish for, you just might get it.

    Tristan Elwell
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  10. #9
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    I've had correspondence off and on with Todd Lockwood for a while. He was gracious enough to give me real, useful and insightful critiques and advice on my work and other aspects of working as an illustrator.

    It was an immense help.

    It is one of the things that I wish we had more of in the sketchbook section, and other areas of the site is to have the guys shown at the top offer help and instruction to those busting their asses to improve.

    Yes, the workshops are great. But not everyone can get to them for a number of reasons.

    But, I also understand that it is a time commitment to take someone under your wing and give them more than one or two posts of your time, especially when you have deadlines to meet, family and in some cases a social life.

    Still, if I had a pony...

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  11. #10
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    Well I'm not sure anyone would want to give out thier phone number to some stranger teenager on the internet to talk about thier work.

    CA has plenty of pros giving people help. Elwell for one... aside from talking about strawberry pooping magical horses.
    Last edited by Interceptor; October 5th, 2006 at 11:29 PM.
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor
    Well I'm not sure anyone would want to give out thier phone number to some stranger teenager on the internet to talk about thier work.

    CA has plenty of pros giving people help. Elwell for one... aside form talking about strawberry pooping magical horses.
    Oh, hell yeah. I wasn't meaning to imply that we don't have the help, or that even Elwell was deficient in handing out the helps. Tristan has tons of respect from me on this, as well for his work. I apologize if my comments in any way implied that he or anyone wasn't doing enough.

    I was merely expressing a "wouldn't it be cool if..." scenario.

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  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    Oh BTW, beware of what you wish for, you just might get it.
    lol, wow.

    Thanks for the comments guys -- sarcasm aside (har har) I was going with the "if it was available, would you be interested". Also had in mind the difference between getting feedback from working pros vs uni professors...while it was mentioned that "pros aren't teachers" -- I think it's a matter of where the interest lies at the moment.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oregano
    Oh, hell yeah. I wasn't meaning to imply that we don't have the help, or that even Elwell was deficient in handing out the helps. Tristan has tons of respect from me on this, as well for his work. I apologize if my comments in any way implied that he or anyone wasn't doing enough.

    I was merely expressing a "wouldn't it be cool if..." scenario.
    That was'nt to you, Oregano. You've been here alot longer than I have, I'm sure you would know more than most people how helpful everyone around here is.
    * Help a CA artist! Visit the Constructive Critique section! *



  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by elwell
    You know what else would be cool? If I had a pony. A magic, talking pony that pooped out delicious strawberry sundays instead of poop, so you wouldn't have to clean up pony poop, just sit around eating ice cream and talking to the pretty pony all day.
    ...that just killed me it was so funny! sorry to veeeeeeeer off topic

  16. #15
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    I've got kind of mixed feelings on this. It is a great thing to be able to talk to pros and to get them to look through your portfolio (although if you've got time with a pro it's even more valuable to have them go through your sketchbook, imo)... they've got insights and things will jump out at them that you wouldn't have thought of in a million years.

    But if you're at that intermediate-to-good stage where you're having trouble improving on your own and need a pro's feedback to get a direction on what to work on, you're probably going to be out and about and getting noticed and talking to the pros on your own - and if you're not, you need to get your work out there. I mean, I can't think of anything more disappointing than to show my work to someone for a crit and have them tell me something that any artist who was at my level could tell me (like, "do more life drawing!" or "don't do static pinups!").

    So... I think yeah it would be awesome if you could call up pros, but if you feel you're so good that you can't get meaningful and constructive feedback from the badass people on this board, you probably have some pros you could call or email, or you're not quite as good as you think you are... I don't think it needs to be some big organized thing, because it happens on its own, if you're serious about it.

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    WOW that Alex Toth fellow reminded me so much of the lead teacher at the community college I went to. He just beat it into your skul like there was no tommorow.

    I need to take some more classes there.. I just love the abuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarett
    I can't think of anything more disappointing than to show my work to someone for a crit and have them tell me something that any artist who was at my level could tell me (like, "do more life drawing!" or "don't do static pinups!").
    Ya, I know what you mean. Getting feedback on specifics is usually more valuable and canned answers are rarely helpful. When I was showing my portfolio at comic con in san diego it was great to hear responses detailed enough for me to want to act upon them.

  19. #18
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    DrawingFanatic:

    I used to have the same basic train of thought that your post seems to imply. I would engross myself with all sorts of media. From CDs, to audio tapes, to "how to books", to concept art DVDs, to inspirational material, to "the making of books", to "the concept art of movie X or game Y", to posters to hang on my wall, to top artists in my favorites folders, to journeying places like large conventions to keep me hyped and inspired, to finding out what pens and markers some elite artist used and heading to the store to try those out, to searching endlessly for forums on "becoming a better artist", to...

    ...you get the point.

    I no longer do this - and hopefully I no longer will.

    Now don't get me wrong. Every single thing I mentioned above is and can be helpful. There is nothing all that negative about it. The problem is a person can spend so much time searching for how to do something while avoiding the simplest approach.

    My new philosophy regarding art is as follows. Just draw. Sure, we all know its the simple response but is it truly more complicated than that?

    I really don't think so. I used to think there had to be more to it but I found for myself that thinking there is more to the act of just sitting down and drawing was just my way of making myself feel better for being lazy. To disguise the fact that you are afraid. Afraid of what - I wasn't sure, but fear was a huge part.

    Its like those stomach/ab machines that you see everywhere. You have these ab rocker, ab lounge, ab cruncher 2000, bungie cord hammock type devices that support you and give you the ultimate situp. In the end, they are all just gimmicks that we use to tell ourselves that "this is what its gonna take". Thats because we are to damn lazy to just get off our ass - lie on the carpet and just start doing situps the good ol' fashioned way. With your feet tucked under some bed.

    Its generally the same philosophy. Now, if that is what it takes to get you motivated or feel like you are improving at something then all the power to you. Just be careful - as it has taken me many years to realize this. It is easy to get caught up in busy work. To get caught up in research. To get caught up in finding the best approach to do something. Next thing you know, 3 hours have gone by and you have found the best tutorials, the best advice, the best techniques and best critiques in the world but 3 hours later - you still have not drawn anything on the paper lying on your desk.

    Think about it...you ever think "oh man, let me find some reference for this alien dog creature I'm making." You start off doing a google search. Maybe you go to some artist online portfolio that you remember having some alien monsters. Then you browse through some art book while taking a break in the restroom to give you an idea for style. Then you get back to your computer and check out your email real fast. Then you find some sweet link to some more inspiring "OMFG" artwork. 2 hours later...where is your alien creature?

    I have the privilege of watching my kids grow up completely because I am around them every single day - the entire day. I have watched them learn things that we as adults wish we could learn as quickly. My son draws about 4 hours a day. His improvement rate is phenomenal. He doesn't ever look at pictures, books or websites before hand. He has a thought in his mind from some movie he saw (he watched the movie for entertainment - totally unrelated from his art) and he draws characters from it for 4 hours straight.

    Its a long rant, but its from the heart so to speak and I hope it truly helps someone. It took me years to admit and decide this for myself so thats why I now share it.

    I respect your thoughts on "getting help from pros" and am in now way shooting down the idea.

    Its just that I've seen so many "will this help me get better" posts instead of a simple post like:

    "HEY ALL! - I am new to drawing. I don't want to ask anything. I'm just gonna shut up now and draw thousands of pictures. Over time, I'll post them and you can tell me what you think. I'll see what you say, heed your words and draw thousands more trying to improve based on what you said." In a sense, the fact of even typing something up to post without having a dozen images of "first sketches" attached is exactly what I'm trying to point out.

    good luck either way

  20. #19
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    As Zeret and others here have impleid, no pro is going to waste his or her time teaching you basics. Once you're ready for crits from pros, you'll get them.

    - d.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Oaksford
    Also I hope you realize people who have done work for companies like Wizards of the Coast, White wolf, etc.- They post all the time in the critique center. It's not just a forum, it's a movement man.
    dude...smartest thing i have ever read from you.

  22. #21
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    heavy offtopic: DannySketch, you got a bunch of wicked quotes in your sig there. Think many people would be well off to pay attention to those >>>>

    - d.

  23. #22
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    The secret of success reveled, seriously, I agree with every word you said

    Quote Originally Posted by creatix
    DrawingFanatic:

    I used to have the same basic train of thought that your post seems to imply. I would engross myself with all sorts of media. From CDs, to audio tapes, to "how to books", to concept art DVDs, to inspirational material, to "the making of books", to "the concept art of movie X or game Y", to posters to hang on my wall, to top artists in my favorites folders, to journeying places like large conventions to keep me hyped and inspired, to finding out what pens and markers some elite artist used and heading to the store to try those out, to searching endlessly for forums on "becoming a better artist", to...

    ...you get the point.

    I no longer do this - and hopefully I no longer will.

    Now don't get me wrong. Every single thing I mentioned above is and can be helpful. There is nothing all that negative about it. The problem is a person can spend so much time searching for how to do something while avoiding the simplest approach.

    My new philosophy regarding art is as follows. Just draw. Sure, we all know its the simple response but is it truly more complicated than that?

    I really don't think so. I used to think there had to be more to it but I found for myself that thinking there is more to the act of just sitting down and drawing was just my way of making myself feel better for being lazy. To disguise the fact that you are afraid. Afraid of what - I wasn't sure, but fear was a huge part.

    Its like those stomach/ab machines that you see everywhere. You have these ab rocker, ab lounge, ab cruncher 2000, bungie cord hammock type devices that support you and give you the ultimate situp. In the end, they are all just gimmicks that we use to tell ourselves that "this is what its gonna take". Thats because we are to damn lazy to just get off our ass - lie on the carpet and just start doing situps the good ol' fashioned way. With your feet tucked under some bed.

    Its generally the same philosophy. Now, if that is what it takes to get you motivated or feel like you are improving at something then all the power to you. Just be careful - as it has taken me many years to realize this. It is easy to get caught up in busy work. To get caught up in research. To get caught up in finding the best approach to do something. Next thing you know, 3 hours have gone by and you have found the best tutorials, the best advice, the best techniques and best critiques in the world but 3 hours later - you still have not drawn anything on the paper lying on your desk.

    Think about it...you ever think "oh man, let me find some reference for this alien dog creature I'm making." You start off doing a google search. Maybe you go to some artist online portfolio that you remember having some alien monsters. Then you browse through some art book while taking a break in the restroom to give you an idea for style. Then you get back to your computer and check out your email real fast. Then you find some sweet link to some more inspiring "OMFG" artwork. 2 hours later...where is your alien creature?

    I have the privilege of watching my kids grow up completely because I am around them every single day - the entire day. I have watched them learn things that we as adults wish we could learn as quickly. My son draws about 4 hours a day. His improvement rate is phenomenal. He doesn't ever look at pictures, books or websites before hand. He has a thought in his mind from some movie he saw (he watched the movie for entertainment - totally unrelated from his art) and he draws characters from it for 4 hours straight.

    Its a long rant, but its from the heart so to speak and I hope it truly helps someone. It took me years to admit and decide this for myself so thats why I now share it.

    I respect your thoughts on "getting help from pros" and am in now way shooting down the idea.

    Its just that I've seen so many "will this help me get better" posts instead of a simple post like:

    "HEY ALL! - I am new to drawing. I don't want to ask anything. I'm just gonna shut up now and draw thousands of pictures. Over time, I'll post them and you can tell me what you think. I'll see what you say, heed your words and draw thousands more trying to improve based on what you said." In a sense, the fact of even typing something up to post without having a dozen images of "first sketches" attached is exactly what I'm trying to point out.

    good luck either way

  24. #23
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    Originally Posted by creatix
    Its just that I've seen so many "will this help me get better" posts instead of a simple post like:

    "HEY ALL! - I am new to drawing. I don't want to ask anything. I'm just gonna shut up now and draw thousands of pictures. Over time, I'll post them and you can tell me what you think. I'll see what you say, heed your words and draw thousands more trying to improve based on what you said." In a sense, the fact of even typing something up to post without having a dozen images of "first sketches" attached is exactly what I'm trying to point out.

    good luck either way
    Good advice. Anyway, this site is great for getting crits from pros. If that's what you want. I've found that working with people around my own level is actually more fun though. Then it's not as onesided as a pro giving crits.
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    creatix:

    I appreciate your thoughts and feedback, but please notice that this thread wasn't intended to be a remark on whether people waste time looking at reference while not actually drawing. Granted, that is often the case for those new to the scene. Your comments, in general, are a light to artists mired in the scenerio of too much input, not enough output -- "just draw" will certainly get your feet in the right direction.

    The poll was to see if receiving 1-on-1 feedback from the more experienced would be something of greater value than only the forum (which was a listed option). Though I won't show my entire hand, I brought up the topic because there is something brewing...something those who are ready for more should be excited about...and prepared for.

    Thanks again for your thoughtful remarks.

  26. #25
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    Just because someone has a skill doesn’t necessarily mean they have the ability to teach that skill. When someone scrabbles their way up to a high level of skill, chances are they’ll be able to offer good advice to someone who is already close to their skill level. It takes something extra for someone like that to be able to teach intermediate skills or the basics after going all that way, however.

    As students of visual arts, the onus falls heavily on us to be able to learn from what we see. We don’t have access to conversation with most of the artists we admire, but we do have amazing access to their art.
    I think you are awesome, and I wish you the best in your endeavors, but I am tired of repeating myself, I am very busy with my new baby, and I am no longer a regular participant here, so please do not contact me to ask for advice on your career or education. All of the advice that I have to offer can already be found in the following links. Thank you.

    Perspective 101, Concept Art 101, Games Industry info,Oil Paint info, Acrylic Paint info, my sketchbook.

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    For instance, if I could speak on the phone with Feng Zhu for 30 minutes, with a piece of my work in front of him, and just let him talk to me about my process and how to improve overall...
    You know what Feng would say first? Mileage is the key to improvement. Actually he said just that.

    I didn't start improving until I recently dedicated 3-4 hours a night to drawing/painting.

    That's the single most important method to going pro - hours a day of drawing and painting.

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