I'm going to put my neck on the block here and say that I am flabbergasted that Magicgoo's entry didn't go on or even rate with the judges. Whilst I object to Magicgoo's public complaint (after all, thunderdome is just a big game, life goes on and hopefully you got useful practice out of it), it cannot have gone unnoticed that images like robot's entry are routinely rejected from the weekly activity forums as unfinished. IMHO robot keeps better work in his sketchbook.
From the round one thread: "Keep in mind that the goal of the competition is to create a full-fledged illustration every round, so you'll be judged on your technique, concept, designs, and narrative."
This is what I construe as a call for completeness. Correct me if I'm wrong. If indeed this criterion was kept in mind by the judges it certainly isn't expressed in the result of match 30.
Thankyou for hearing me out. Now, deride away if you think it's justified.
PS thankyou for your crits sve, justin and anyone else i may have missed out. I think i learned a lot from this pic.
Take a look at Bob Peak's movie poster work, and you'll realize that the unfinished look doesn't necessarily mean the piece is unfinished. On a competitive level, go through a Spectrum annual and you'll see a simple line drawing of a single figure by Frank Cho getting a full page while a highly detailed massive battle between two large armies gets the lower right hand corner on a different page. Sure, it's subjective which piece should have gotten the full page (or have even gotten in at all), but you have to realize that with enough trained professionals looking through these, there's at least some method to the madness, and that there can be a distinct, almost palpable charm in something as simple as a gestural line to describe a leg, over a highly detailed (possibly overworked) but unnecessary fourtieth soldier. So going back to match 30, rendering all those tentacles does not entitle someone to win, or get at least one vote, over something that simply looks like it took less effort. And I'm not trying to kick you while you're down Ursula. Just to bring my example around full circle, I did not get into Spectrum at all this year, and I know I'll be pissed when I see it come out this November.... so believe me, I can relate to your frustration.... but I still respect the pros involved, and I'm inspired to work that much harder without putting a bitter taste in the mouths of those who did advance or succeed. And that's what this should be about in the first place; being inspired to work harder and grow.
p.s. Thanks Justin O.
Last edited by Mike Dutton; October 2nd, 2006 at 03:11 AM.
One thing you guys need to keep in mind is that just because a piece got 5 out of 5 votes, and another didnt get any, doesnt mean that the judges were trying to tell you that your piece was a lot worse or a lot better than the other one. The judges arent working together. They might have all thought it was really close and only coincidentally all chose the same piece. Its 5 different judges. Not one judge handing out 5 points.
Now that I've slept over it, and thought a bit, I don't think that point rating would be cool, because it would deresponsabilise the judges ("let's put 10 to all those great entries")... with the current system, they have to make a hard choice, and this is better I think, and as cody said, there will be more judges now, so more sensibilities and different points of view...
I think the only change that should be made is what Aleksi suggested, hiding the names.
I think the only change that should be made is what Aleksi suggested, hiding the names.
I fully agree on that.
Magicgoo, have you looked and tried to understand your opponents piece?
Yes indeed, it's colorless, but it enhances the piece I think.
A guy dressed up till his hair in black and white, comes out of the colorless
city and walks towards colorfull nature and in the mean time getting
rid of his colorless clothes, freeing his mind.
I think his piece is well thought out and reflects 'the escape' well.
To me match 30 seemed like a tough call if I was judging; a full illustration, good composition, but a few anatomy errors, vs. 7 drawn out figures (even if he had to copy/paste the heads) with very good anatomy, muscalture etc., but with some pretty stale colors, I would choose the latter. More because I would rather look at some awesome figure drawings in black and white over 1 full colored illustration-
And Ursula, it isn't like the judges knew how much time went into each piece. I was pretty pissed that I lost first round (but not suprised), but now I am really pissed that the winner of that match didn't even SUBMIT this round.
So far I've been sarcastically called "classy." So let me just interpret that as you calling me trashy, Cody. And in the same post, I've received this:
Boo hoo hoo, you didn't win a goddamn online art contest that was run purely for fun. And what a travesty that the pieces you thought should win didn't! By god, I better contact you soon so that you can judge all of the upcoming matches all by your lonesome... Criticism is fine and encouraged. You attempting to tear down artists and judges alike because they didn't match your highness' expectations is just plain fucking sad.
For stating my opinion, I've been indirectly told not to enter any more of these contests. How about if you can't react well to disagreements, then don't post on the internet? Because, instead of 271 contenders, you've got 6 billion. I am not "plain fucking sad," Cody. But, thanks for your opinion anyway.
Sve, if art is not countable, then is 1 of 2 pieces entirely discountable? As in, does it deserve no recognition of its existence at all? I believe the rating system would be more helpful simply because it acts as a critique in itself. It places a number on how much or how little you need to improve your art. It is not designed to give a point to the people whose "feelings are hurt" as Coro said. I also didn't say for the general public to judge, Coro. The ratings would be for the pro judges' use.
Also, this system would not for just work the LMS. Look at it this way: Let's say there's a Tdome of 50 people. And the prize for the top 3 winners is a paintbrush or a hug or a BJ or a signed sketch or something. Whatever: Just imagine that the starter of the Tdome is actually giving away 3 prizes. Well, with the poll voting, you can only give your vote to one person, so in theory, one person could receive 100 votes and 49 others would receive zero. Or, if there are 10 judges, they might all give their 1 vote to 1 person. How is that an accurate contest, especially if there needed to be a top 3?
I'm truly grateful for this event and the effort everyone involved put in it.
what I wish for is to see closing comments within each group of competitors regarding why a piece got chosen instead of the other ones. this would clarify how the judges think and probably bring some satisfaction to the dissatisfied, but most of all we would learn from it
that along with aleksi's idea would be great.
Last edited by DARYL; October 2nd, 2006 at 02:59 PM.
Firstly, I'd just like to say a big congrats to everyone for doing such amazing work. And nice one to JTJ - keep going, son.
With regard to Teh Controversy, I have to say that there is always a bit of disappointment, and I never feel that every single deserved winner is judged as such. Coro, I salute you. True sportsmanship.
Those of us from countries where the Beautiful Game is celebrated will know that this is part of life, however. There's No Way In Hell Jens Lehmann should have been sent off in the Champions League final last year, it should have been a yellow card and an allowed goal. And without that, Arsenal may well have lifted the trophy. But the point is that our sports aren't engineered like American sports, where the better team is pretty well guaranteed to win. In our way of doing things, there's a hell of a lot of room for controversy. And it makes the passion of the game about 1000 times greater!
In other words, I'm sorry to say this (and I'm sorry I lost). But this is essentially a game. There are tactics and there is injustice. And it makes you want to kick everyone's ass even more next time.
So congrats to the winners and good luck to the departed.
**edit PS: I actually think the points outta ten or percentage idea or whatever is a great one. It would maybe force it to be a bit less about dynamism and impact and a bit more balanced. Not griping about anything, just think the Goo is onto something.**
The judges are free to give comments and crits on each piece, but requiring them to do that would not be a good idea at all. They're volunteering their time, and they're busy people. Remember how long it took to get the results for Round 1? That only involved them picking a winner for each round. Making them comment on each and every piece would make it take months before we got any results.
It sucks to spend all this time on a piece and not get any sort of feedback, but we can't rely on the judges to provide that. The Thunderdome is not a good place to get indepth crits, but luckily we have people like sve.
Ursula, I understand your concern very much, but it will not change much in my opinion. Because I'm pretty sure that idea to compare art work is absurd. For me, it is.
But ... if we want to do some contest just for fun and enjoyment and sportsmanship we accept some rules, just for the sake of order and with purpose to move on, not to stand forever on one spot with 271 contestants.
The rules are not perfect and they don't do justice to the art in my mind, because this justice is subjective for everyone. It is just a system to pick up some artwork from offered with some principle as a base. In our case, just eyes and taste of by everyone respected people who have a lot of experience in this field.
It is like in figure skating, when they rate the performance according to how they skate technically, literraly if they did all the jumps and acrobatic numbers and did them correctly, well it is understandable, you can measure and compare that. But marks for the artistism, beauty of dance, well, it is laughable for me, because it is just matter of taste. And shortly put it is bogus rating, in my opinion.
I do appreciate you speaking your mind, because it is interesting to hear other person opinion. Hope you are doing great.
Edited. Might as well leave this spicy stuff off the forums.
Each judge judges based on the factors that Manley just listed. You all want a point system to subjectively quantify each dimension of a piece of artwork, fine. It was planned for future rounds with larger pairings anyway. But consider this... you try rallying a large panel of professionals who have busy enough schedules as it is and tell them to judge 271 pieces of artwork, each requiring more in-depth judging for multiple categories and to type out all of their results before sending them back. Not going to happen for such a large tournament. Now that it is smaller, yes, we will implement something a little more intricate. Just take into account the scale of this thunderdome, it's huge. Of course a more involved judging system would be nice, but not everyone has hours and hours to spend judging this thing. Think about it.
Last edited by strych9ine; October 2nd, 2006 at 09:05 PM.