C.O.W. - #061: Iceberg Devourer - Voting! - Page 3
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  1. #61
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    Talking

    HmmÖ. This is an interesting topic for a philosophical discussion. Not that the place is very suiting, but I canít help putting my nose into thisÖ

    Many people I meet carry the argument that ďIt doesnít matter how the image is made, as long as you get the best result possible.Ē Iíve always found that point of view very alien to my own way of thinking, where HOW you make the image is everything. Iím not dealing now with the cases where youíre paid to deliver a certain product, where result obviously is paying off better. What Iím pointing at is why you make the image, and I primarily make mine for my own personal development (on many planes), and for the joy of others secondarily. If I take the shortest/most effective way to the good result I might lose training, insight and the joy of the making. On the other hand, if I make an image by the methods which feel right for me, I might gain these things. In my case, this way of thinking means that: I never use refs of any kind (except memory), and generally donít use textures. Of course, in many cases, I would get better results by using these, but still I donít. I simply do not enjoy such tools. The process gets too impersonal, and to mechanical to suit me, with the use of these aids. To summon things up you could say that I do not make images for the sake of making images. I do them for the sake of inner peace and development (which isnít the same thing as artistic development.) I argue that making a picture while concentrating on what you do, trains the mind and gives you knowledge of self, no matter what level of artistry you have reachedÖ but more if you follow the way which feels natural to you. For me, the result of the painting itself is secondary to the result in mind/soul/psyche. Did that sound strange?

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloister
    HmmÖ. This is an interesting topic for a philosophical discussion. Not that the place is very suiting, but I canít help putting my nose into thisÖ

    Many people I meet carry the argument that ďIt doesnít matter how the image is made, as long as you get the best result possible.Ē Iíve always found that point of view very alien to my own way of thinking, where HOW you make the image is everything. Iím not dealing now with the cases where youíre paid to deliver a certain product, where result obviously is paying off better. What Iím pointing at is why you make the image, and I primarily make mine for my own personal development (on many planes), and for the joy of others secondarily. If I take the shortest/most effective way to the good result I might lose training, insight and the joy of the making. On the other hand, if I make an image by the methods which feel right for me, I might gain these things. In my case, this way of thinking means that: I never use refs of any kind (except memory), and generally donít use textures. Of course, in many cases, I would get better results by using these, but still I donít. I simply do not enjoy such tools. The process gets too impersonal, and to mechanical to suit me, with the use of these aids. To summon things up you could say that I do not make images for the sake of making images. I do them for the sake of inner peace and development (which isnít the same thing as artistic development.) I argue that making a picture while concentrating on what you do, trains the mind and gives you knowledge of self, no matter what level of artistry you have reachedÖ but more if you follow the way which feels natural to you. For me, the result of the painting itself is secondary to the result in mind/soul/psyche. Did that sound strange?
    But if your goal is getting paid to paint, you must work in a way that gets the best results the quickest. Otherwise they'll hire someone like Tyranx.

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  3. #63
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    First, thanks to all who made comments about my entry. I wish I had time to respond to all individually, but I'm just going to let them all sink in and guide me intuitively.

    Second, I think Cloister is bringing up some interesting points, and I'd like to add my two cents to the discussion. You sound like you have the soul of a genuine artist, Cloister, much more than an illustrator or graphic designer. It's like the work isnt really real to you if you can see the evidence of your own hand in it. I think that's really admirable.

    The other side of it is that concept art, illustration and the other communication arts are really businesses. Right tool for the right job stuff. Photo texture, custom brushes, filters... any of that can be used poorly or well.

    We seem to hover in the betwixt (my own word, but I love it) here. On the one hand, there does seem to be the ethical considerations of "did you really draw that?" when people question the use of some pretty sophisticated tools that make a shorter job of rendering an idea out of nothing. On the other hand, its common place to use these things to articulate ideas in the real business of concept art. We're all probably familliar with royalty free textures, photo-ref and even 3-d models. And when one considers that in actual real world practice, concept art is actually just one gear in a large machine and that any media that makes practical use of it is always a group effort... it almost begs the question, what does it matter if someone uses some photo texture in a painting?

    The fine arts themselves are no stranger to "borrowing" things from other media...collage, multi-media, the conceptual framework of "appropriating" something from the larger culture.... it goes on and on.

    This may not be the appropriate place to cite my next quote, both because of the ethics it suggests and the guy who said it (not a favorite of a lot of ca.org-ers) but... Picasso once suggested that if you borrow something, you have to give it back. If you steals something, its yours. I don't suggest they're words to take literally or live by, but he is right in a philisophically realist sense.

    Fine artists really seem to be the ones that vex about being "original" more than the other visual art forms.

    I dunno. This is a ramble.

    I think though for me, its an all or nothing kind of thing. If you inlay photo texture into a painting of yours, there's no point at all in admonishing others for using filters or the airbrush or the burn tool. You can criticize them for using them poorly... but telling people never to use them is pretty hypocritical. I mean, really how are using layers any different? Once you really understand how to use them, and it dawns on you how truly easy it is to turn your bright red snake into a forest green one with the click of a mouse... how is that any different?

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jaecks
    I think though for me, its an all or nothing kind of thing. If you inlay photo texture into a painting of yours, there's no point at all in admonishing others for using filters or the airbrush or the burn tool. You can criticize them for using them poorly... but telling people never to use them is pretty hypocritical. I mean, really how are using layers any different?
    I disagree.

    The difference is the user. How many professionals use the dodge/burn tool? I assume very few if any. This is because there are much better ways to lighten/darken things in PS, namely through layers/masking/brush modes. The reason these people would use other methods is because they'd rarely be lightening/darkening something with white/black.

    If you're using the dodge/burn tool it probably indicates a lack of colour theory knowledge.

    What you've said is like saying anyone that uses a custom texture isn't creating art, because the texture is probably googled - therefore the work is not theirs. But the arrangement is theirs.

    This debate is pointless. It's a stylistic (or time conscious) choice if someone wants to use a texture, we can't restrict everyone to the round brush or customs made without photos.

    I wonder how many people supporting the 'textures aren't your art' side have someone else's custom brush sitting in their library, or a brush/texture made from a photo that they didn't take. (OHNOES!)

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    Well, actually, I'm told photographers use the dodge and burn tools. And if we're blurring the lines between being a painter and a photo manipulator, what's to stop anyone from using it well?

    I've got no issues with using texture from a photo as a technique. But it does raise a question when that particular techinque dominates a work. There have been a couple or instances recently with some Hubble Telescope based images for instance. Those paintings wouldnt exist if not for the borrowed imagery.

    As far as which tools to use and not use, that's the pointless debate. If I heeded the advice of every art teacher or professional or critic that told me not to use something, I'd do nothing. Tell me I'm using it inappropriately or I could be making better use of something else, but forbidding it is pretty silly.

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  6. #66
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    Yea, I know the image you mean. Still, I don't think it's too hard to distinguish painter from photomanipulator. I assume photomanipulators start with photos and painters start from scratch.

    Anyway, here's my rule of thumb; if your image isn't aesthetically great you could be making better use of something else.

    Like many, I'm still on the hunt for stylistic/technique success, and this is actually the first COW I've used a photo texture on.

    If something's being "forbidden" there's probably good reason for it. If people are advising someone not to use a tool it's probably because it's a difficult tool to use at their level of education/knowledge/skill etc. If it's too difficult to bother with, by forbidding its use they're trying to help you out.

    Some advice is worth listening to, it's just a matter of figuring out who has the experience to back it up.

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  7. #67
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    He..he..hey, I really got you going I see ...nice!

    Chuck W: You are right. But my whole idea concerned cases where you're not working commercially...I quote my original text here:
    "...Iím not dealing now with the cases where youíre paid to deliver a certain product, where result obviously is paying off better..."


    --- Everyone: And since the discussion immediately headed off somewhere else, I must add that: Of course tools are tools. Computers are tools. Physical brushes are tools, and hands are tools... The point that I find interesting is what tools brings development, and what sort of development is of real interest... (when you're not working for bread). That of course is a matter of personal choice and personal experience, as is what you value in other people's art. I just think the question is worth asking...yourself.
    Could it be that you loose something while adopting quicker and more effective tools? Would there still be value (for you) if you could do it all by pressing a button?

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  8. #68
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    Its all about bringing your idea across in the best way possible. This has nothing to do with what tools you use, but more how you use your tools.
    Go ahead and use the dodge and burn tools, but youll find more control if youre able to find the right colors yourself. And being more in control enables you to convey your concept better.

    Basically use whatever you can get your hands on to convince and show the viewer what you intended. Layers/textures/cut/paste/smudge/undo/ whatever are all tools to put as little barriers as possible between your idea and the final image. So use them, but dont use them because theyre there but use them because they needed to materialize your idea.

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  9. #69
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    if someone will go overboard with photomanipulation i will intervene, even more if it's in the creature itself...

    For me it's a matter of personal style..some like to add photos and manipulate, change or work on them so long until they have it at a satisfying point, and others draw all the stuff 100%...

    When it comes to judging in COW it won't hurt me until the photo stuff is appearing too heavy or obvious in the image...

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    Love Tyranxes idea of a giant pre-cambrian shrimp, great stuff!

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  11. #71
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    wow

    we got philosophical in THIS forum?

    I'm drawing a blankin my sketchbook, that is

    Ye-ha! I actually completed my site.Check it out
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  12. #72
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    Always...unless you're in the lounge

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  13. #73
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    Thank u for all comments and votes.
    Congratulation Tyranx

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  14. #74
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    already giving up JakkaS???

    We still can win!!!

    I made a new rule:
    "The points of the activity mod and the points of the Overall-Leader were summed up and multiplied by 5"

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzybar
    already giving up JakkaS???

    We still can win!!!

    I made a new rule:
    "The points of the activity mod and the points of the Overall-Leader were summed up and multiplied by 5"
    So are we voting for xgabo or nijoo?

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  16. #76
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    no, we don't need to vote...our points will beat Tyranx points...and both of us will win!!!

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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzybar
    no, we don't need to vote...our points will beat Tyranx points...and both of us will win!!!
    Hmmmm...I suggest new rule....we always win.. less work with the poll and we even don't have to enter

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  18. #78
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    yeah, we even don't need to look like 2 silly freaks talking shit in a poll thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzybar
    yeah, we even don't need to look like 2 silly freaks talking shit in a poll thread
    We usually talk like this so what’s the difference?

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  20. #80
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    yeah, but we do it parallely over instant messengers...the difference is, that we are insane...

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    hmmmmm...I don't see any difference....

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    ah bullshit...where is the little Orang-Utan anyway?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fozzybar
    ah bullshit...where is the little Orang-Utan anyway?
    Don't forget that he usually enter 2 hours before deadline....so we have plenty of time without his presents

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    ok...let's sit down and wait for him...



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    v - BlkCelebration

    Loved it.

    Runner ups: Ostrander, Cognition, Xgabo

    ANother great week, everybody.

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  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyranx
    you two are insane
    as i said, that's the difference

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    Some awesome concepts here - hard to know who to vote for. I wish I could vote for at least 3

    What doesn't kill you makes you injured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo B 1
    Some awesome concepts here - hard to know who to vote for. I wish I could vote for at least 3
    There sure are.

    You can go vote for 3 over at character of the week. Wink, wink.

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    First of, I'd like to thank all the people who took the time to crit and comment on my piece. You guys made some good points (man, drawing water was hard for me..this was the first time I drew ocean water). Muchas gracias!


    I voted for xgabo, I liked his take on the subject. Not to mention he drew (imo) the best iceberg..hehe. Also, hes definitely devouring that sucker, and yes the bear kicks ass.

    Some pieces I liked:
    I dug the lighting on Cloister's piece.

    Never seen an ice cave as fine as the one in JakkaS' piece (of course the rendering on the ant is beautiful)

    I like the humor in Ostrander's piece.

    Tyranx style is so sleek and clean, I would have voted for yours but xgabo's creature design won over yours. I learn by just watching your stuff

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