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  1. #1
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    argh, putting down my frustration

    I've been going to an art school in my country for a few weeks now, and I'm a bit dissapointed. . . From day 1 I got to hear that it isn't important if you can't draw, lot of bullshit that a good idea is more important etc.. . One teacher even told me that drawing realistic is more like a 'style' anyway, as if when you try to learn it you destroy your 'own style' with it. . . -_-

    besides that we haven't done anything in the lessons by now except for two chairs we have drawn. And not surprisingly the most important thing we are learning is not how to draw but how to develope ideas. (which imo can only be worked out good if you actually know how to draw, which I think we need more right now because most of my classmates simply draw like shit. . and then I'm comparing to my own work which isn't that good either )

    I feel a bit lost right now. . I really want to learn how to draw/paint etc.. , but I think that when the school is going to continue like this it's gonna be more a waste of my valuable time which I could have actually invested in studying.

    sorry if you think this is a waste of space, just wanted to write down my frustrations.

    yours,

    haldor
    Last edited by D.Labruyere; September 12th, 2006 at 01:42 PM.


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  3. #2
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    I know how you feel, I am having exactly the same problem at my school. All I can suggest to you (if there is no alternative school) is to just finish the school and keep drawing yourself. Its all about the motivation to do it, if you are motivated you will get there! If you really want professional advise you can always post on these forums or check if there are any night classes or courses in weekends you can take.

    May I ask what school you are on?

    Just know your not alone with this problem
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  4. #3
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    I'm lucky to have a little asian guy (hard to understand at times, but very funny and helpful) who is really trying to get form across to us at the moment. Hopefully his other lessons will be as informative.

    Like KixX said, draw from life anytime you can. bring a skecthbook wherever you go and even if you dont have a subject try to draw anatomy from your mind.

    Creativity and idea development can't be learned, but drawing can.

    At the end of the year the rest of the class will be passing of their horribly rendered shit as 'the description of the failure of parenthood in our time' or 'a stylized orc fighting a unicorn' while you bring in your nicely rendered, highly detailed and anatomically accurate drawings and shove it down all of their throats.

    Stay the course. You know what to study, so do it my friend

  5. #4
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    i guess you're talking about some kinda "art high school", so guess its the same kinda school i'm doing in my country.Well, welcome to the real world.Most of the teachers will not teach you what you want.Its just like that, all my classmates can't draw anything, really, and noboby is even really interested in elarning how to draw.In my school i study "industrial design" and all we do is basically technical drawing,.I used to do life drawing in the first and second year, and i used to find it incredibly boring.But it helped with rendering, i must admit.Oh well, just hang on to your dreams as tight as you can, keep drawing if you want to follow a concept art/comics/illustrator/whatever.You gotta teach yourself, and there is only one way, DRAW.

    ciao

  6. #5
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    Oh man I know exactly what you mean, it seems to me art teachers in the Netherlands don't know shit.
    Of course generating good ideas is important, but it won't do you any good if you can't draw now would it.
    A buddy of mine took some life drawing classes a while ago and he was critisized by the teacher not because of flaws in his work but because he wasn't expressing himself artistically by drawing abstract on which he of course replied that he wasn't there to express himself artistically but because he wanted to learn how to draw realistic humans as a basis for his drawing skills.
    When I was in art school we sometimes had to grab the biggest brush we could find and just let ourselfs go.
    Afterwards the teacher was going to analyze the painting and figure out what you meant by it and what your feelings were.
    "Ah yes you painted the shape of a woman but she has no face. I think it's because you're looking for a woman in your life but you haven't found her yet, or there is a woman but you want her to remain anonymous am I right?" "errr well...actually I haven't gotten to the face part yet so that's basically why there's a plane shape."

    Anyway just take advantage of the oppertunities given to you like life drawing classes.
    I know it's not really motivating if there's no one around you where you can look up to, but that's what CA is for maybe you should attend some sketchmeetings to hang out and learn from like minded people.

  7. #6
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    OMG.. Really??
    I thought it was just my secondary school drawing teacher who grades abstract drawings higher than more realistic drawings.
    I really thought the level of realistic drawing would be much higher at HBO art schools in the Netherlands.. I think if this is the case I will try my hardest to get into Game Design at the HKU, because I don't want to end up where you are now, and with Game Design you learn other stuff where I'm still a beginner at.

    Well I think you should just make the best of it, if you feel that you are wasting more than 50% of your time at school, you might want to consider taking a part-time job and draw A LOT in all the spare time you have beside that job.
    I believe you may still get your school money back untill january the 1st (I'm not sure about that, so ask your school about it), so if you really think you won't learn enough there, think about it for another month and then get away from there.

    After all, it's your skills and portfolio that is getting you a nice job in the end, your educational degree doesn't count for much (or so I hear from everybody around me).

    Good luck!
    Marleen

    P.S. If some of you guys (and girls) from the Netherlands have some more of these things to post, please do! I really want to know how it's like at the dutch art schools..
    Last edited by NoŽ; September 12th, 2006 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #7
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    wow guys, thanks for all the support! really great to hear I'm not the only one

    kixx, I'm going to stJoost in Breda. You to? because I see you live there. .

    rhineville, thegnoll and rudeone, ghehe you guys are all totally right, I'm just going to take advantage from the library there (who strangely enough does contain anatomy books and stuff) , and life drawing classes and such. Really thank you for the support!



    edit: noe, sry you replied when I was typing I think you are right, and have the feeling that my school isn't the only school in the netherlands where you run against these problems. Which is a shame because there really is a lot of talent in the Netherlands which has to make a really much harder effort to get there knowledge. So thank god we have ca

  9. #8
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    Ah, I've heard the same story about a certain art college in Switzerland...

    All of the "high art conceptualism" BS aside, remember that concept art is based around... concepts. While the tehcnical drawing skills are crucial to project your ideas, your drawings would be generic and lifeless without a solid, unique idea behind them.

    Having a fertile mind combined with a busy hand is your best bet.

    *leaves two cents and returns to work*

  10. #9
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    Dayschool + night classes + weekend classes+giant mirror at my place where i keep sketching my own face.

    First one is for the ideas, second one for the mile-age, third one for the techniques, fourth one for mile-age and just try some new stuff.

    WHO NEEDS SLEEP ANYWAY WHEN YOU HAVE COFFEE???????????

  11. #10
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    OMG I am so glad I do not live in northern Europe. The whole point of art is to convey emotions and ideas with techniques and skill. I honestly would not even bother attending such a school and doing it my own way, if those schools were my only option.

    Good Luck
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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhineville
    Creativity and idea development can't be learned
    Actually, I don't agree with this.

    Tristan Elwell
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  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    Actually, I don't agree with this.
    I don't either, but I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

  14. #13
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    I went to an "Art highschool" for my first 2 years, 9th and tenth grade. It was horrid. My painting teacher didn't even believe in COLOR FREAKIN THEORY. She said it herself- I asked her "Are we ever going to review color theory or anything- saturation, hue, chroma, etc.?" in painting class, and she said "You should make sure you believe in that stuff before you study it, I think it's a bunch of BS."
    I now attend public school, where I am getting a much better, more focused art education. That school had more P.E. Classes than it did visual art courses. =\

  15. #14
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    kixx, I'm going to stJoost in Breda. You to? because I see you live there. .
    Currently I am studying at a graphical design school in Rotterdam but that is a MBO school, after that I was really looking to go to the stJoost aswell since it's in my hometown. But if you are so dissapointed with the level of education there I doubt it would be any different for me.

    I went to an exposition of students of the StJoost in Breda a week orso ago and I must say I was really dissapointed with the level of their drawings. You could clearly see that they were focusing way more on the idea then on the actual drawing skill.

    I really wish you the best of luck with this, if you find any course in or near Breda that would be worth following I would greatly appreciate it if you would send me a PM with it since I am having a really hard time finding any decent one.
    Putting the FUN in FORUM!.... wait...

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  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoochile
    I don't either, but I'm curious to hear what you have to say.
    There are basic concept generating techniques and strategies that are just as teachable as anytihg else. They're the sort of things a good illustration, design, or especially advertising program will teach you.

    Tristan Elwell
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  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    There are basic concept generating techniques and strategies that are just as teachable as anytihg else. They're the sort of things a good illustration, design, or especially advertising program will teach you.

    Right. For instance, One of my professors in college taught how to see shapes in your scribbles. It was just that easy. I actually start off most of my work doing this. Sometimes I fall into scribbling patterns if that is at all possible. My point is that this technique is one that sparks creativity. I'm sure there are many more, actually, that could be a cool thread!

    I think Marko even does this to an extent. If I remember correctly he basically begins a character loosely and sees where it takes him. He'll start at an arm and find personality in it which gives the character his or her's clothing style, expression etc. Anyone can create like this. Obviously he is very gifted and not everyone can do that as well as him right off the bat. But I'm sure he wasn't always that good either. That is where hard work ethic comes in handy, so there is hope for all. That's just my two cents.

  18. #17
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    True, but you can't really make a rule out of it... I asked him about that in Montreal and he totally burned me in front of everyone :|

  19. #18
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    I went to art school and basically I think its a big waste of money. I am still paying off loans.
    I left before second year... because 2 of the teachers pulled me aside and asked me what I was doing there...in the same week. They said that I was just wasting my money and that I should just take the job offer that I got and work and draw on my own. Ha ha I kind of replied.... why didn't you tell me this before I wasted 10,000$? They said that they didn't want to lose their jobs... It was all a little traumatizing actually... I think the general population believes in the whole..."stay in school and get yourself that piece of paper that says that you are smart." I don't think its the same for artists though.

    Anyways
    I think my favorite art teacher was the one that striked fear in my heart.... Ha Ha countless times he would make students run out of the room crying. At first I thought I would hate him. He would come up behind you .... and look at your work and ask you if you were an idiot...LOL*remembers* He strived for preciseness...perfection and a need for self improvement. If you got even a smidgen of a compliment from him... it was like the world was yours for the taking. He is the only man that I would ever let belittle me in front of a group of people... Because... I saw it... I saw such a massive improvement in my work. And you basically strived never to be humiliated again in front of the class. I know a lot of people didn't approve of his teaching methods. But I doubt I would have respected him like I did if he wasn't that way. He made me see the world differently.....bring reality to a piece of paper. He was like the martial arts teacher in Kill Bill ....less asian. In the end he was one of the teachers that pulled me aside... and told me that I needed to stop wasting my money. And 2 days later I was out of the school and started my own freelance business... and I haven't stopped getting work since. I think you need to master the basics in art and then strike out on your own instead of wasting your money.... But make sure you have the basics under your thumb before you do that.... And that can take some time... I still have not fully mastered the basics.
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  20. #19
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    Creativity is a function of the brain. Learning creates new connections, which can be coupled in new and interesting ways. With the proper focus, this can translate into increased creativity.

    It's a good thing CA is here to bolster the global art institutes that don't have a clue.

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    You never want to make rules for yourself when it comes to your artwork. For myself, they promote bad habits and repeating ideas. The only rules I have for myself encourage artistic developement like drawing everyday and the like.

    Sometimes when I'm stuck in the idea stage I will start writing, basically just brainstorming and word associating. I feel it helps free up the mind when you feel the pressure to be unique and creative.

    These are just tools however, you can find inspiration all around you. I find bugs and deep sea life quite fascinating and trees. There are so many abstractions in nature and man-made objects as well. You just have to start looking and then a whole new world will open for you.

  22. #21
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    To clarify my post about creativity (not to hijack this thread or anything ):

    I don't believe it can be actively trained like a skill. I don't think that by trying to draw weirder or more 'creative' stuff everyday that you will become more creative because of it. I did that all my childhood and teenage years and all I came up with was the same thing. Martial arts character. Spaceship. Maybe if I was having a good day I'd come up with some sort of martial-arts spaceship.

    I DO believe that it can be improved/developed in a roundabout way. I posted one time about the theory (though it may not be a new one) that my prof had about creativity. That a creative thought was just a random thought plucked from the recesses of your mind that somehow worked in a new and refreshing way. He concluded that the more you know, the more you've experinced, the more random thoughts occur and the more chances there are for creativity.

    So do I believe you can train yourself to be creative? No. But I do believe that the more you know, the more chances you have for creative thought.

    EDIT: This is only observations I have made about my own experiences. I even don't know if anyone can really comment on someone else's creativity, perhaps it's different for everyone...

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...
    Last edited by Jason Rainville; September 12th, 2006 at 07:24 PM.

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhineville
    I don't believe it can be actively trained like a skill. I don't think that by trying to draw weirder or more 'creative' stuff everyday that you will become more creative because of it. I did that all my childhood and teenage years and all I came up with was the same thing. Martial arts character. Spaceship. Maybe if I was having a good day I'd come up with some sort of martial-arts spaceship.
    Just because you never learned the skills doesn't mean they don't exist. If you kept drawing the same old shit, by definition you weren't trianing your creativity.

    Tristan Elwell
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    If you're right Rhineville, I guess the person who wrote "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" is ripping millions of people off. And to think that they were teaching how to think creatively....sheesh.

    On second thought, maybe you should check it out. It may open your mind up to new things. You can never stop learning, right?

  25. #24
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    Sheesh, you guys don't gotta rip him a new one, it was just speculation. Perhaps you could shed some light on these techniques Elwell? I don't believe I have heard of them either.

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    This is not a blanket statement, it does not always apply

    This being said,
    Art school, college, etc. is a business. They're in the business of teaching. However, some concepts are hard to grasp and can drive people away. As a Calculus III course may drive away some lesser engineers, a fierce study of rendering, realism, and anatomy can do the same to some artists, especially in their first year.

    I think the best schools will do this anyways, but I've found that many try to ease into the whole art thing and wait till the last year or so to spring on the hard stuff. In this way, they have your money.

    You're already ahead in that you realize what you should be learning. This isn't to say though your teachers are just feeding you crap. There's probably a lot to learn about 'forming ideas' and mentally approaching your piece, but you're correct in understanding you need a good foundation and the technical skill to do what you think.

    In the end though, you get out what you put in. So you're on the right track putting in more effort to those anatomy studies; you'll come out ahead.

  27. #26
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    That was ripping me a new one? I'm not even bloody yet

    Seriously though, like I said, it's what I believe, not what I know. Elwell, what I did was try to come up with new ideas for characters, new ideas for technology and all I really came up with over and over again (at the core of it) was just another guy who looked like he could kick some ass, and just another spaceship (which could also probably kick some ass) I took risks and TRIED to create new things, but I just kept... 'falling back into the hole each time I tried to climb out'

    It was only until I learned new things, got into martial arts, learned some of the history, got a star wars vehicle book and looked over some schematics, that I actually started making some connections. My art became more creative.

    Maybe there is a process for creativity. NOT a process for creating characters and tweaking certain aspects of it based on a system (At least that's what I gathered you meant about the process earlier Elwell, if it is not then please explain ) but a true process that gets your mind into another level of thinking.

    But, isn't it ironic to have a process, a 'system' for thinking outside the box?

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    That is pretty sad considering all you draw are chairs. LOL! (sorry..kinda funny too.)

    Life should be your classroom for art. Don't let all the analytical philosophies and teachings in school upset or confuse you. If you feel like you are wasting your time, move on and let your desire to learn guide you in the right direction. Just don't expect anybody or anything to show you how to be an artist.

    That comes from within.
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    I do not think you can learn creativity. You can learn how to use it, how to develop it, how to play with it but if your creativity is limited it will always stay limited.
    And this 'fact' is clearly visible in the world of art: you have very few creators and a lot of followers. You only have to look at this forum how many people do you see trying to copy exactly what marko djurdjevic, craig mullins or justin sweet are doing? People who are very skilled but have such a lack of creativity that they are perfectly content in becoming the clones of somebody else. And it has been like that for centuries, probably since art was invented. Creativity, when it is completely original and different is rare, and cannot be learned.

    That's a nature/nurture question in my opinion. What people call 'innate talent' is actually creativity. And what artists call 'hard work' is only the technical side of things.


    Food for thought: if creativity could be learned I think we would see less orks, sexy girls with guns and samurai on this forum.
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    This thread makes me want to buy 50 t-shirts ^^


    love
    Marleen

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    If it makes you feel any better, alot of art schools in germany are the same..... there are exceptions, mainly in the east, where during the iron curtain there was a continued tradition in realistic work.

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