Argonaut Centaur Battle - Finished, thanks to you all! Check it out!
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Thread: Argonaut Centaur Battle - Finished, thanks to you all! Check it out!

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    Argonaut Centaur Battle - Finished, thanks to you all! Check it out!

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    This one is for this week's CHOW, themed Jason and the Argonauts. This is Pirithous fighting a centaur at his wedding. Im still very new at this and cant see what needs work. This is still a WIP, but i would love for you all to help me out with this one. I would really love some paintovers for those who are up to the task, but any help would be much appreciated.

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    Last edited by guastaferro; September 4th, 2006 at 04:07 AM.
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    Wow, I think this has a LOT of potential personally. Great facial expression! I think that the background is great, but I find myself looking at that because there are so many interesting little shapes in it, and the two characters look unfinished. I think if you lay in more details and highlights to define the characters this would be an awesome painting. The Centaur's forearm could use a little more muscle to bulk it up, it looks a bit skimpy to me right now compared to his bicep. And I'm not sure about the blood..I think there is too much. There might be a little on the initial slice, but it would take a little bit before he starts gushing. Think about showing a tear in the flesh and maybe a few little traces of blood, but keep the blood on the sword to show what has happened. I'm digging this work a lot though

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    Thanks Scary! I totally agree about the forearm, i looks a bit emaciated, ill have to bulk it up. And im glad you pointed out the blood,
    cause i had no clue where to go with that; i was having some trouble showing that he's actually cutting him, with the shot being behind
    the centaur and all....maybe i can open up his belly a bit with a slice. (its true that the blood probably wouldnt spurt from a stomach wound...)
    Thanks for taking your time to help!

    Heres another issue with this, i am fighting the composition about whether or not to include a cape, which he would definitly have at his
    wedding ceremony, but i dont think the red works, but a cape flowing between them could help bolster the composition....any thoughts?

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    what you have is great so far but both the centaur and the dude seem to clean. Centaurs are filthy creatures and the guy should have some blood on him from the wound he just made.

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    Thanks Slaving, ill look into getting some texture (some hair and spots) onto the centaur and see about some blood. Thanks for taking a look.

    MORE MORE MORE CRITS PLEASE!!!!

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    Woah, that's great! I can almost hear the guy screaming!

    Couple of things that aren't looking good atm, are the blue reflected(or whatever) light on the centaur's fist/abs/shoulder. It look randomly placed to me. And the point where horse and human anatomy meets needs some work, but i don't know how those things are done so i won't give stupid suggestions. GL with the image, it will be really good in the end, i'm sure!

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    To be honest, I find the fact that the gladiator is slashing the centaur with his eyes closed a bit unbelievable. How the arm gets to it's position here the man should twist his body to this position just to yell straight to centaur's face after the slash. The reason could be to taunt but the slash here doesnt seem critical to me, so the centaur might counterattack. Otherwise if you are yelling at him 1 meter away and then decide to slash with your left arm only.. eyes closed.. it would seem a bit unnatural to me.

    Just my amateurish 2 cents.

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    HAHAHA! medice, i guess it does look like his eyes are closed, not intentional, just meant to be squinting kinda....but i see your point, i have updated it with the idea of removing the slash all together, going off some other suggestions to make it more of a face off, which was the initial concept behind this painting. The dude isnt even phased by the size of the centaur, just gets right in his face.

    v0rbiss - agreed, i will either back the blue off or remove it alltogether (since there is no blue light source that is prevelant in the scene) It was from an attempt to add some more color to my characters, who tend to have very classic even skin tones.


    still WIPpin it

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    Wow this has great potential. One thing i thought about and I could be wrong....

    The guy screaming in the face wouldnt be like that after dealing a blow. Think the inertia the body goes through after swiping a sword sideways. You know i think it would work more if you threw the arm with the sword even back more, then youll get this nice swooshing composition and more energy in that swing .

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    So Pirithous has just drawn his sword out of his (insert scabbard into the composition here) scabbard, and gives a strong yell into the (insert centaur textures here) sweaty, disgusting centaur's face. Meanwhile, the centaur (which is, by the way, sweaty, hairy, scarred, and potentially bloody from a past encounter with someone) gets ready to ...

    what?

    punch Pirithous?
    bite him?
    claw him?
    pick him up and throw him?

    That poor centaur doesn't know what he showed up for! He certainly didn't show up just to get killed by Pirithous, did he? Show the conflict of the piece, show WHY Pirithous is so heated and ready for battle.

    Also, remember that this is Pirithous' wedding. His armor will most likely be polished, gleaming, making it a fairly focal point of the composition. Try to get that across while balancing the overall composition. I like that his face is the most important part of the entire scene, and you've done an incredible job with it!

    The centaur's right arm seems to bend sideways at the elbow a little, toward his outside. If you're going for full-on human anatomy, I'd either rotate the top half of the arm so the bend is going on at his shoulder, or try to change the angle of the forearm.

    The red cape is an excellent idea, and I strongly believe that it helps, but with the way everyone's hair is moving, the cape is either following behind Pirithous' movements, or it's staying still. Maybe he's holding it in his off-hand so he doesn't trip over it?

    The very last thing, and most important that caught my eye, is the centaur's leg. It just looked wrong somehow, so I did a little research on horse anatomy.


    That is how a horse's leg should bend at the top.



    You can see where the joints are, and it looks like the first joint in the actual leg is bending backwards in your composition.

    Sorry if I come off as harsh, I think this is an incredible picture, and would love to see it come out the best it possibly can!

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    Incredable detailing - especially on the man itself.

    The centaur is very nicely drawn as well, minus the leg which has been mentioned.

    Over all this is an excellent piece that I'd like to see finalized. Great job.

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    nice... you could work your skin tone shadows in a bluer shade which would bring some cooler color in to it and give you more of the depth of interplay in the skin tones

    as has been pointed out the centaur leg is funky

    thanks for reducing the file size... on the right there seems to be about an inch of unused compositional space
    you might want to recrop your composition


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    You might try having the guys eyes open

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    Wow! Nice work man. Really like it (I think the BG superb)

    I disagree about having his eyes open. I think the face is just done. (there´s always the chance of overworking something till you ruin it y´know)

    well. maybe (note: maybe!) make his ees crazy like, like this (bit over exaggerrated )


    One thing that strikes be is difference between detail levels, the face is very detailed, in contrast to i.e. the argonaut´s body . I know this is a WIP, but keep it in mind

    And a minor note, (it´s cause of the perspective), IMO the argonaut looks a bit short. Aaaaaaaand the foreleg looks a bit awkwardly placed.

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    Wow, nice picture! Apart from some of the crits allready given I think You could drop a couple of cast shadows that can define the shapes some more and add some more interrest to the painting. Also I'd add a bit to the top of the painting, because the centaur's head just fits in.... Feels kinda cramped. Is that a special haircut he's got just above the painting?
    Maybe paint a bit more over your linework (might be your style to leave some in, but it doesn't look like it should be in there to me).
    Oh, and now I look at it again, the centaur shaves really well . What I mean is that there is no clear border between horse and man and also no real difference in color/value.

    Hope this helps... Great piece!

    Marty

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    The centaur looks naked, any thought on adding armors onto him?

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    Wow people! Thanks so much for helping me out! Ive been painting like crazy to get this in on time, so i havent had time to respond to crits, but have been taking them into consideration.



    Heres the finished piece, i dont think i can work on this anymore, fairly happy with how this turned out. Most of the problems are from lack of appropriate planning and positioning of the characters in the comp before painting.

    Kresh - took your advice and adjusted the arm, with help from a paintover by Myxomatosis (thanks!) giving more energy and fuller movement to the swing. Thanks!

    Drumming - gave me a bunch of good stuff to think about. I made changes based on most of your crits, but time ran out to adjust the centaur's arm, a shame. But the armor is spruced up now! And i think the leg looks better on the centaur....i need to study horses....

    Serena - glad you like it!

    Chaos - tried to add some blues, ran outta time, as always, but i will remember that for the future. I made adjustments to the right side of the comp, extending the sword out there, as well as having the cape flowing to that side instead.

    Yellow - again, as mentioned above, his eyes arent closed if you look closely , but since there appeared to be some cunfusion, i tried to make it more clear by defining the eye a little better. Hope it works better

    Glottis - adjusted the funky leg and tried to rework proportions between them, also spaced them a bit more.

    Marty - great suggestions, added his hair reentering the comp to bring your focus back to the characters, and some hair and pattern to the centaur. I think the issues you are seeing is from my lack of ability to render a horse with hair. i really need to study those! Oh and i got rid of the linework, which wasnt gonna stay but is gone now. Much nicer to look at!

    Scorned - looked into adding armor, but ran outta time, and thats something i should have considered when i started it. This fly by the seat of my pants method of working is ...... well.... not working. I need to expand my workflow so a am better prepared to complete a quality painting. Thats how you learn tho, mistakes like these!
    Thanks for all the crits and all the help guys! It was spot on and much appreciated. Be sure to stop by the CHOW voting and VOTE! Theres a bunch of really good entries!

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    Suppose this comes a tad late for you, Gustaferro, but for helping's sake I'll pipe in.

    I quite enjoy this piece.. I think Jason's handled particularly nicely and it's got a lot of energy to it. Plus greek myth's always been a favourite of mine. Though it's still got a few issues I can see that are worth working through.

    Did a paintover to illustrate. The biggest two things were the centaur's anatomy and the composition. Centaur's anatomy is pretty self explanatory, but the composition is worth a word or two. I notice with yours the value range is very extreme... it's generally good to avoid this. You'll usually want to save the blackest blacks for your focal point (of course there are exceptions to this, but not, seemingly, in this case) so they can really make it punchy.

    It goes from almost pure black to very light pretty abruptly for no apparent reason in the background, and--though I enjoy the texture--it looks sort of overpowering. The massive value contrast in the background plus the texture is drawing attention away from the figures.

    I also found that the scene wasn't as dynamic as perhaps it could have been. With the very nicely painted sword and sweeping motion it has, it wouldn't be too difficult to reinforce its movement by playing around with what surrounds it.

    The way I changed this stuff is pretty apparent if you overlay the paintover over your original piece.

    Anyway, good luck Nice work!

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    Man Tully, thank a bunch for that! That was exactly what i needed...after looking at this for so long it takes a fresh brush to fix the crap that ive made from it. As much as id love to make these changes for the contest, i think ill just call it done, and finish it for myself. I really need to study horse anatomy i can see. And you are right about the blacks, they are my safety net, i always go to the blacks when im not sure what im doing. Ill make some changes and continue to post this on this thread, seeing that its still a WIP.

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