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  1. #1
    smellybug Guest

    Seemingly little 'concept art' in Conceptart.org...

    Honestly, I really like this site and visit daily for inspiration. But I'm getting more and more frustrated with the work I'm seeing in "It's finally finished" and other areas. Concept art? Where? I see a number of slapped out pictures of Elves and and Witches and Anime girls with big tits, but what I am normally looking for is more of what the name implies, ie conceptual work and design work, or at least work that's trying to be that. I don't mean to rag on guys who are just starting out and trying to get input to help develope their technique, but take a real look at what's put up for viewing. Puppies wrestling on a beach at sunset is not conceptual art regardless of how beautifully the fur is rendered. I think that somewhere along the line, the purpose of this site has gotten a bit muddied. Or maybe there needs to be more seperation in the catagories. Or maybe I'm just missing the point altogether and really, this is just a basic illustration site. It feels like a highschool art class where as long as you're doing something you'll be encouraged and praised? Again, I don't mean to come off as a hardass and overy judgemental, but some of the posts I've seen lately need their own catagory and maybe a little more policing by the folks who watch over the site. Would anyone like to see the Finally Finished area divided up into more specific sections? Here's some suggestions; maybe have subcategories for "It's finally finished":

    *Film and Television
    *Industrial design
    *Game related
    *Fine art (non commercial)
    *Anime
    *Fantasy
    *I'm 15, have no idea what I'm doing yet, but would like comments on my twenty minute photoshop picture of the Sexy Dark Lord of the Arazmuth Clan that I drew while stoned and I think it's awesome (nudity)!

    Just a thought, and certainly it could be more refined. A seperation between professional and amatuer posters might be useful too. I just think it would help make the site an even better resource than it already is, and maybe even attract more pros who could really teach people something. I'd like to hear if I'm way off base or perhaps there are like-minded individuals out there.

    your pal,


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    preach on brotha preach on...

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    HEAR! HEAR!

    AMEN BRUDDAH! GO TELL IT ON THE MOUNTAIN!

    I try to filter out this kind of poo at my forum and it just keeps getting thicker. This forum has the potential to make it specific and survive. The domain name and talent here are just too solid for it to sink into the abyss from decidedly omitting the refuse.

    I want this place to rock on- it's great, but could be so much better. Great post, smellybug. I'm with you all the way.

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    hahaha

    i agree 100 percent

    i also think we as members should start critiquing peoples concepts as much if not more than the technique, anatomy, perspective, etc etc.

    i mean the knowledge of anatomy, perspective, color theory will come with time and diligence---but it seems like the originality of a concept or its application towards something isnt really disscussed in critiques
    if we start critiquing eachothers concepts more we can push our chosen mediums and their contents further and further

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    I think many of the things you pointed out are considered to be implemented in the redesign of ca.org...which is still in progress...

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    I agree. This site has been an immeasurable tool for learning and inspiration. I can't express my gratitude to Jason and Co. enough for all the effort put into running this site. Critiques, contests, etc. All top notch. By dealing primarily with concept art, this place has really set itself apart from many of the other message boards out there. It would be a shame for C.A. to loose that defining characteristic.
    I really hope the redesign takes care of this influx of...well, I'll just call it "non-concept art." Some of it is really nice, but it belongs in a different forum sub-heading. You really have to hunt through the posts to get to the actual concept work.

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    I hope the new gallery section will make it so that the mods and professionals can select works that are of good quality and put em in a gallery. So us mortals can just keep posting and at the same time a look in the gallery will bring about the true essence of ca.org.

    I think these selections/galleries are real important - reviewing by a group of the more experienced and talented artists will hep more than the 'nice-guy' stuff we see all the time right now - ok, i'm guilty myself too - that is also brought about by the fact that less experienced artists will hesitate to crit often... Which is of course an outflow of modesty which is good in itself but modesty breeds mediocricy, i guess.

    Plus the finally finished should be much harder criticised. 'Hey that looks unfinished, go away!' so people feel reluctant to post if they're unsure. I don't ever post there anymore since i feel my own stuff lacks quality, maybe in a year or so. I think it's good not to post often in finished section.

    Another idea: let's have more 'projects' like Davi's Eliphos project where a sort of collaboration is done on a theme or background information. That can help develop concepts further. A lot of us are sitting behind their machines in the evening and would no doubt like to have a sort o longer term thing to contribute on. Would also help build skills. But that's just an idea.

    E.
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    just a quick note....the admins have all been discussing the best way to begin to organize the site into a beginner, intermdediate and professional viewing and posting area.

    the new site will have all the "best of" images in one giant gallery.

    there will also be a gallery for all images in general...to be easily flipped through etc...


    the key here is that some of these noobs that fill these threads will grow up to be great artists. whether any of us see that now or not....i was the worst artist in my class when i started..horrible...my work even got rejected from the art clubs coloring book in high school....so we have to nurture them...we will learn from some of them someday.

    as far as the lack of concept in conceptart.org I only have this to say...a lot of conceptual art gets posted..however the most important thing for someone to see about being a concept artist is that doing the work is just a small part...its all the outside work that really pushes us....look at andrews spotd to see what i mean....where would he be without the hundreds of heads he drew this year...where would his skills be? would they be the same? the best concept artists are artists and also members of the art community. its not just about the marker space ships...its about the art...whether it be sculpture, painting, digital or abstract....

    jason


    PS...Im very open to any and all ideas in regards to what we should do with the beginners....i realize that people dont want to wade thru a hundred of those images to see the new one by nivbed but it is those same beginners who need our help the most. what to do....


    j

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    bitch bitch bitch, go somewhere else if you've got a problem with this site


    they abolished that law that requires you sign on here daily

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    Maybe a good rating system where images are rated by mods/pros will help out?

    And i think there should be a sort of 'gap' between 'normal members' and 'selected members' where every now and then a new member is elected to the selection of pros/exceptional artists. That would be a peer thing and not very controversial in most cases. Sort of like a guild used to be where one would have full members and apprentices.

    The posting ranking system helps somewhat but it would work even better if it reflected the quality of the work somehow.

    But... very subjective, so very problematic.

    Also - i would never make the cut myself ;-) but that is my own problem...

    [PS Jason i have the CA.ORG sketch open right now, trying to fit your discussion with blackhand in there. Not a good day though :-/ so i wonder if it works out today.]

    [EDIT] I do think the site should be open to all and everybody that wants to post or view conceptart. Just there should be an easy selection way or something that makes it easy to see the great stuff we look up to. And if someone posts something awesome he/she gets elected in that special area. no real elitist thing since that would kill the community... only 5% (or something) of everybody here is awesome, the rest are aspiring to become awesome. [/EDIT]
    Last edited by Erik; May 21st, 2003 at 01:55 PM.
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    Re: Seemingly little 'concept art' in Conceptart.org...

    Originally posted by smellybug
    *I'm 15, have no idea what I'm doing yet, but would like comments on my twenty minute photoshop picture of the Sexy Dark Lord of the Arazmuth Clan that I drew while stoned and I think it's awesome (nudity)!
    lol rofl

    ( * I mean the sentence quoted, not the fact that 15 year olds post pics here - that is really very cool with me - i wish i could have done that when i was 15 - internet is great)
    Power is nothing without intelligence.

    Sketchbook!

  13. #12
    smellybug Guest
    Sorry Sin, didn't mean to cut so close to the bone with the "*I'm 15, have no idea what I'm doing yet..." comment. I definitely don't want to discourage the inexperienced or the immature from posting their work or thoughtful comments.
    I'm in total agreement with J.Manley and most here that noobs shouldn't be shot down or discouraged. This site should certainly not be elitist in any way because being as open as it is is one of it's strongest points. Nobody wants to have to audition in order to participate. I just want to have a bit more organization. If this was available to me when I was in highschool (A year or so before Sin was born, heh heh, ahem...), I might have avoided the frustration of figuring it all out in a vacuum. All I could do was buy Frazetta books or Sid Mead books and try to figure it out on my own. NOT exactly the most direct way. This would have been a goldmine. So anyway...like that.

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    Angry

    I've been here since the beginnings and came to think of the same. I'm glad it got mentionned in such a tempered way - thanks smellybug.
    One other thing I'd like to see is for this thread not to turn in a flame war. So Sin, calm down and read the other's posts.

    I'm eager to see the new "mouture" of the forum and am glad the situation mentionned in this thread will be adressed.
    Personally, I speed browse the forum nowadays as a lunch hour doesn't seem to cut it anymore. I enter the thread, see the art for a 1/100 of a second and only stop if it's smashing. It's a shame since I don't comment as much as I was (or should in order to give constructive criticism), but such it is.

    Over and out,
    ege

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    Smelly, I agree with you so much on this, it is definitely frusterating. If the site is planning on making changes they should set up a forum for suggestions. That last category about the 15 yr old was funny as hell by the way.:chug:

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    All the newbies can be quarantined to the Middle Class thread for the time being if you want...just send them there...I think a lot of newbies just don't know that it's there. I haven't posted in the "it's finally finished" section for like 6 months because I only post in the middle class. Send them to me I will whip them into shape and then send them off...all the while whipping myself hehe.

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    And I think there should be a sort of 'gap' between 'normal members' and 'selected members' where every now and then a new member is elected to the selection of pros/exceptional artists. That would be a peer thing and not very controversial in most cases. Sort of like a guild used to be where one would have full members and apprentices.

    Well, that could become to large. I think maybe a links page for all the professional's web sites would work better, people could apply for their link to be there by sending it via form or whatever to the founders or who ever they elect to judge what is actually a pro and what is not.

    The bio's like they have on the about page now should only be for the original founders of the site, or those that have daily forums of their own. Lest the list get to long and cluttered.

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    Honestly, I really like this site and visit daily for inspiration. But I'm getting more and more frustrated with the work I'm seeing in "It's finally finished" and other areas. Concept art? Where? I see a number of slapped out pictures
    hmmm....
    IT'S FINALLY FINISHED!!
    A drawing, a painting, an animation or even a sculpture... Show us what you made!
    :bash:

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    ...because all the pros who are featured on this site never studied classical art and little puppies...

    Art is art. Concept art or practising for concept art? Either way its all got to do with the community. Muddied? Let's just have 100 forums for different topics eh?

    Sorry for the semi-rude remarks, but seriously, no concept artist was anything until they started with basic anatomy/colour/lighting studies/and classical art in general. Please feel free to show me a concept artist who has never done a regular piece of artwork...unless the guy was insanely lucky there are none. Again sorry...just the muddle and puddle of opinions that form the basis of my mind.

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    I definitely know what you mean as feelings like this were always popping up at Francis Tsai's Forum back in the EZ-board days. And truthfully, you're right. Conceptual design isn't just one piece that just happens to look good enough to pin up on to your wall (or the inside locker door). It's the develpoment of visual ideas through artwork which is most of the time cumulative. If you look at movie concept art, for every nice looking polished piece that end up in a book, you'll have a buch of unrefined sketches that make no sense on their own. I feel it's the ideas, shapes and themes that are what compose conceptual design as an artistic genre, personally.

    Organizing the boards to specifically cater to artists of specific skill levels may be good as long as some the better artists follow through in making sure novices get the right ammount of attention so that at no point is a Novice unclear about how he or she could make things better. It would still be up to them to take the initiative in improving their own skills. The truth is, some people think that they're better than they really are (probably myself included) and when they get that wake up call and realize that they have more to learn than they originally believed, it can be discouraging. This should be avaided at all costs. If this happens, encouragement and learning oppurtunities should be prevailent. That's what I love about Conceptart.org, too. It's all ready there and the ammount of positive interaction between the pros and amatuers is incomparable to that of other boards. If fact, I'm very pleased with the obvious sacrifice of time and effort on the part of the pros for the board's sake.

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    While I see the point behind the original post, I don't have a problem with anything that anyone has posted because it means that people are trying, which to me is the main thing. So what if a 15 year old is trying out their work? He/She is giving it a go and having the courage to post their work to the scrutiny of others. For the most part, I have seen constructive criticism and a positive outlook among most of the posters here, which is a very rare thing on many, many online forums. I am another of those people who sift through the forums daily, for the glimpses at other people's work, and to see the commaraderie. I believe this place has a good thing going, and I wouldn't change a thing. We all have one thing in common, regardless of skill level, room to improve, and I appreciate getting to see offerings from around the world by a myriad number of talented artists.

    b a t
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    I always find myself instinctively arrayed on the side of the barbarian, against the powers of organized civilization. -- Robert E. Howard

    Writer, illustrator and artist.

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    personally i dont think any of professionals should be made to feel like thay have to respond to novices. first of all who has the time to respond to every person whos only been into art for a year or two and wants the professional to just tell them the secret to art so they can get good real quick and rule the world. shit--i didnt have conceptart.org growing up and neither did any of the professionals, so to think that by not responding to a novice youre going to cripple their advancement is BS. if they want to be an artist they will, regardless of any online forums.

    i guess what im thinking is if there were subcategories to post in like "professional " or whatever the novices could look at the critiques between professionals and explanations and discussions given and learn on their own that way. from observing and listening. (and theres the middle class for beginners who are passionate).

    I think if it was more organized in this way we might attract more professionals to the site because they would see there was a specific place for them and they would be guaranteed to interact with other professionals and make friends and go on picnics.

    i also really agree about the ideas of conceptaul art--
    but there is also alot of emphasis here on elements of design in picture making--more specifiacally illustration. so i think the jason, android, etc, have chosen the content to be somewhere in the middle of illustration and conceptual art

    but thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.

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    Even though Im one of those pesky little novices tyboogie speaks of, I think his suggestion is a good one.
    But..how could you actually LIMIT the forum category to ONLY pros or "good" artists? I mean, who could possibly decide which artists are fit to post in that forum, and which artists arent? Well, I guess there would be ways, but it seems kinda tough.
    A suggestion i could think of for a PROS forum, would be to have only comments by those deemed "good enough" or "pros" show on the front page, and in order to see comments on the images from novices, one would have to click another link.

    And regarding somehow limiting these forums to ONLY concept art, maybe have sub-categories in the "Finally Finished" section of "Concept", "Digital paintings", "traditional Works", and maybe one other...but other than that, the idea is simply balogna =)

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    I agree. I think that everyone posts EVERYTHING in "Finally Finished" Section wether or not it belongs there..

    People need to pay more attention to where they post their work. For example, if someone does a figure drawing, instead of it going into the finsihed section, it should be put into the life drawing section.. Moderators should move thigns where they need to go, as well. Myabe change the forum names, instead of "Finally finished" and "Sketches" it should be somehting like "Concept Art", "Life Drawing", "Misc Art", etc..

    I also think that there should be a "professionals" forum where only professionals can create new threads. That is if the BBS software will allow you to do that. Im not sure how flexible it is. Maybe have some sort of system where if you feel you are up to par, you can "apply" to be upgraded to professional status..

    It just gets tough going through the Finished section and sorting through 10 noob drawing of elf warriors and anime girls to find the kind of art we are looking for..

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    kinda off topic, but personally, i think what separates the noobs from the more established artists are the basics:lighting,composition and anatomy. most of the times, people here on this board are creative enough,(ie very little fan-art pics) compared tp some others that i've visited. but i kinda cringe whenever i see a piece with very lots of anatomical mistakes. granted, not everyone has been to basic art lessons before, but there are loads of refernce online and via books, hogarth and loomis(though i think the online reference for loomis was taken down). so there shouldnt be anyone who should not be making an effort to improve their skills on the basics.

    as for nurturing the talent on these forums, it seems in recent times, people are just more interested in giving their oohs and aahs on pieces by the established artists in the its finished section. i remember there was a piece by foster where everyone was just sugar coating it with love until jason manley came in and gave a critic. i mean nothing towards foster, he's one of the reasons i visit this site, but i would think that all the praises isnt exactly what he's looking for. if its good, than hell yeah i'd give my praises but whats the use of posting a pic just to get praises? i'd show my pics to my six year old cousin if i want that. critics help people to improve, unless their ego wont allow them to take criticsm. i believe that every work no matter how gorgeous is bound to have 1 or 2 (minor) mistakes. and its through the pointing out of these mistakes that artists can be informed and improved on.

    on the recent increase in generic elf/anime/insert current trend pics, its bound to happen. but at least some of the artists here have tried to be creative in their approach by going into new directions and not following old tired expressions. with anime, its hard to be innovative, i'm not a big fan of anime. even the recent anime pictures and shows are just rehashing old ideas. the last truly innovative anime i've seen was 'spirited away' and that was some time back.

    rant over:doh:
    3yrs to go......

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    know what i say: less talking more art

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    What ever you do Jason, keep the Proffessional's Forum. I think most of us can get what we need from that thread. I don't think we should turn away the noobs...even though they have taken over the site. Heck, we're all noobs one way or another.
    Last edited by otis; June 3rd, 2003 at 03:11 AM.

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    Personally I think there's a bit much subforums and forumcategories. Seems you find some new area each time you log in ( about 30 times a slow day ), that you previously missed. And that is a bit annoying.

    If you're going to change stuff around....think streamline. I want to get a fast overview and then choose where I wanna go on the site, without having to look for it. Make it fast, easy and beautiful
    My work as a tattooer www.gallontattoos.wordpress.com

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    I feel that the single greatest aspect to this site is that anyone can post their work on the same board. Equality is what has endured me to this community. The fact that Foster posts his work here, then gets crits from other various professionals and amateurs alike shows greatness. Where else are you going to find this type of environment. I look at the names of the artists I really admire, and note them down for post browsing. That's not to say I skip the others, because you never know who is going to stop by.

    I feel that if the forums are split up by degree of skills, everyone will be visiting the professionals' and not the amateurs'. MindCandyMan has been a great inspiration to many people with his progress, and I think he was inspired by many amateurs and pros alike.

    Keep them all in the same forum as far as I am concerned. I love the feeling that everyone is viewed as an equal in this regard.

    Irate

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    Who knows where inspiration comes from? If anime babe #45 inspires an Oni, or Heavy Metal 2 I'd think that would be cool.

    Just because for you it's not a neat concept (puppies on the beach, thats wicked!), doesn't mean it won't pop into someones mind a homeward bound idea, or a 101 dalmations.

    So if anyone is feeling like their art is too plain for this site, please don't feel nervous...the variety of stuff that gets posted is what makes this site great, even if it's that you drew 34c boobs and the other guy drew 34d.

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    Originally posted by otis
    I don't think we should turn away the noobs...even though they have taken over the site. Heck, we're all noobs one way or another.
    word! I'm so glad that I can learn a lot here, it's such an unique place for artists. And one day I'll be no noob anymore mwaharhar

    cu

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