View Poll Results: Which teacher would you choose?

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  • I choose teacher 1

    39 69.64%
  • I choose teacher 2

    17 30.36%
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  1. #1
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    What would you choose???

    Lets say you were in an art school and you had to choose between teacher 1 or teacher 2, which teacher would you choose? And also, why?

    Teacher 1 draws and paint really bad, but have ability to spot your flaws, your strong sides and see your progress. Teacher 1 are also able to tell you as you progress how and what to practice and focus on to improve as rapidly as possible in the direction you want.
    Edit: Since I wrote in a way that could easily be misunderstood I now add this to teacher 1:Teacher 1 have been in an accident which injured him so that he/she no longer can draw with precision. Before the accident teacher 1 made the most amazing drawings and paintings that would make anyone drool.


    Teacher 2
    is the opposite draws and paint great but are really bad to communicate this knowledge to you. But teacher 2 will let you watch him/her draw and paint. Teacher 2 will also let you decide what he/she should draw if you ask.
    Last edited by Mindflaw; April 30th, 2006 at 07:03 PM.
    My sketchbook flawed to the max page 5
    Ps:Hope you understand my English.
    Remember my advices taste best with a grain of salt.


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  3. #2
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    both can be good in some ways but if you have not very good observational skills and unable to analyze what you observe, #2 kind will only result in you copying his/her style. so i will choose #1. it's like watching a good tutorial (#2) versus showing your work for crits to a good critic (#1).

  4. #3
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yeah, I would choose teacher 1.. In other case I could as well buy some
gnomon dvds, If I wanna watch, I wanna learn

varför vill du att vi ska rösta, ska du välja skola?

  • #4
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    How badly does teacher 1 draws and paints? If he or she is competent enough...in a very basic sense....then I'd choose teacher 1. Because as one of my seniors said so many years ago:

    "I need a teacher who can teach, not an artist who can't make himself understood."

    It also depends very much on the program you're in and also the level you want to attain I guess.
    ********************************
    There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and THE TRUTH.

  • #5
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    I've now had three big-name professors that were amazing, accomplished, award-winning artists in their fields...who couldn't teach at all. The third prof draws all class period in front of us, but it's no use when his critiques aren't in a good, constructive way...but in a vague, "I-can't-tell-you-what-you're-doing-wrong-I-just-don't-like-it" way.

    I've had quite a few profs freely admitted they couldn't draw as well as half their students, but were incredibly good at teaching and extremely knowledgable about what they were doing.

    The profs who can TEACH win every time, hands down, no comparison.

  • #6
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    Teacher 1: I got 2 teachers simlar to these.

    Ones called Lee, he can paint and draw, but he NEVER does it in front of students. But hes FULL of knowledge, and I learn a great deal from him.

    One is called Christine, she is a good painter and have good ideas, but never truely presents herself as the knowledgeable one, and she tends to do the work while you watch her, which becomes frustrating as you want to do it.

  • #7
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    Teacher one. I always like it when someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I had this sort of teacher for the past two years. Three of them who all could draw quite well and prove it. And they were good at teaching. I regret not taking advantage of that now.

    Unfortunately, this year I have a teacher who is never in the room, we've never seen any of her art work, and dosen't even teach us! She says she believes in a more free structured art class so we can develope our own skills and talents. But we can do that at home! It might almost make sense if she could at least be in the room to answer the occasional question. I've approached her about the possibility of 10 minute skill development at the beggining of each class. The most I've seen so far from that is yesterday when we spent the class drawing textures outside. But the class suspects that that was only because
    a) It was really nice and sunny out. (alright fine, it was nice to go outside)
    b) She didn't have the new assignment ready like she said she would
    or
    c) According to another teacher she wasn't feeling great that day. That is excusable though.

    She's a really nice person but...

    Oh and don't get me started on my middleschool teacher. *shudder* Her idea of helping you with your art was to actually make the change herself. I once painted what was a pretty good dog for my age. It was in the forest and there wasn't supposed to be much light to I used a dark green for the grass. But nooo, she kept telling me I had to make it lighter. So she took the paint brush and some white and made the ground look not like grass at all but like grass stained snow. I wasn't pleased. Later on a few years ago I actually saw grass stained snow and discovered how accurate my description of it was. Then there was that other time I was drawing a rabbit. It was a sketch by one of the big names. She wanted me to change something and went to make the change herself. I just barely managed to stop her intime before bolting off to the other side of the classroom with the painting to make the change myself. And she wondered why none of the students seemed to like her

    /rant

  • #8
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    I haven't had the time to check my grammars etc so if somethings way off please tell me.

    Endercoskun, Mirana, and Fl3wk : Thanks for sharing your thoughts

    Dile: To answer yor question: No I’m not applying for an art school. I’m actaully a teacher though not in art although I do teach art a little more than one hour a week to 8 and nine years old kids. Putting in a poll makes people more inclined to at least answer my first question.

    The reason I ask this question is because I’m interested in the way we prefer/being able to learn. As a teacher I find the ability to understand how a student learn as one of key factors to be able to teach.

    I’m not sorry for the oncoming rant

    To explain what I mean I use the VAK model one of the many models on how we learn. Be aware that this model only deals with a fraction on how we learn. I will also only explain and use a tiny fraction of the model. The core of the model are that we prefer different senses when we learn and uses 1 to 3 variables

    Visual
    Auditive
    Kinesthetic/tactile

    One who is visual learns through the eye e.g thorugh diagrams, movies, maps etc
    One who is auditive learns through listening and talking etc
    One who is kinesthetic (movement) , tactile (senses) learns by using their hands, doing their own experiments, need to use their body.

    We all have different preference, some are strongly visual, others are strongly auditive, and some have their preference spread evenly thus are visual, auditive and also kinesthetic/tactile. The latter will always have an easy time learning no matter what. The pure kinesthetic/tactile will have great difficulties in school since we (western) have school system that are mostly auditive and visual. About 1/5 in elementary school are thought to belong to the kinesthetic/tactile group.


    The above in mind some people will not be able to process and understand the information given by teacher 1. But if they watch how to do it then they will get it . Some of these will also have difficulties going further than copying. And will not understand the basic prinicples behind the way the teacher is drawing and will not even explore further through trial and error.

    People that are unable to understand fully even by a teacher that have both teacher 1 and 2 qualities might still be able to learn. This by using a tactile/kinesthetic approach e.g if you want to learn such a person to draw an eye…e.g you get a piece of clay and let them form a ball etc until they have built an eye with eyelids and all. This way they will notice how the eyelid wraps around the eye etc. You could let them feel with the hand in space to feel how they may move the hand in all directions, then you could let them touch the paper so they feel the difference between the real 3d world and the 2d paper. Through this way they will get a better understanding and then be able to understand teacher one and two a little better thus be able to progress into real understanding.

    darth massacre: I would appreciate if you explained more your thoughts behind ” It also depends very much on the program you're in and also the level you want to attain I guess.” thanks

    Keng: eh rant on man

    ”I have a teacher who is never in the room...and dosen't even teach us! ” I guess you spoke your feelings to her many times using your arguments you said to me. You could also be a bit nasty and ask her what's the different between her way to teach and what you get from a book. Since she seems to plan lessons and give you assignment in a logical way, but that you get from art books too etc. And if theres no difference the school would save a lot of money by only using a set of books and fire her.

    Yeah it’s frustrating with teachers that does that (destroy the drawing you put your soul into). Gladly I’ve only had art teachers who asked if it’s ok before they do changes in my drawings/paintings to show what they mean.
    My sketchbook flawed to the max page 5
    Ps:Hope you understand my English.
    Remember my advices taste best with a grain of salt.

  • #9
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    Teacher 1. Hands down. No contest.

    They are called teachers for a reason. Who cares what they have acomplished in their own careers as long as they can help you progress in yours.

  • #10
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    there is also a third kind you know. the "academic" type. they want to do everything "by the book". i used to get pissed off because of the endless lecturing, doing researches, writing research reports, then doing more excessive researches, then writing new reports for them, etc. (i studied industrial design btw) dunno if there are such types in art schools tho.

  • #11
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    It dosn't matter how good soemone is and how much knowledge someone has, if he dosn't know how to share it his students will not learn, therefore I choose teacher #1. Even if the teacher himself is a bad artist it dosn't matter aslong as he can make me become a good one.
    You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body. - C.S Lewis

    My sketchbook, updated whenever I get around to it

  • #12
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    Teacher 1, no question about it. A teacher who is engaged in the individual students are always a good teacher, especially when it comes to each and everyones personal progress.

    Nice to see that you're really taking your teaching seriously, wish more teachers took is at serious as you do. I bet you're a good teacher

    Hugs!

  • #13
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    I'd chose teacher 2, because he/she would let me watch him/her while painting. That's the most efficent way of learning for me. I'd just post them pics on here for critique in hope that somone like Madster would "stumble in"
    A shool year is bloody long anyway, so I don't really have to find a way that *might* be quicker.
    It would be even better if he said what he did instead of just sit there all silent.

  • #14
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    teacher 2. thats how i learned. when i went to school, i had a few teachers who were from china. they couldnt communicate as well as the native english speakers, but would do demos that made it all make sense. to think a teacher who sucks but can tell you how to be good doesnt makes sense to me. because....they suck. if they knew all the knowelege to be a good artist, dont you think that would be present in their works? guys, art is a visual language. why would you need someone to convert visual conventions into words instead of just "showing" you? the funniest thing is that when i had a couple of these chinese dudes for classes, people would complain about "i wish he would just TELL me how to fix my crappy drawing, instead of drawing on top of it and FIXING it!" to make a long story short, i make art for a living now. the people who would complain do not.
    i have adopted this philosophy over the past years. i have come to the conclusion that if someone critiques work, and only points out whats wrong with it, thats only half a critique. you arent arming the person with how to fix theproblem. even if you went into a lengthy explaination, you are just giving them words that dont necessarily lead them directly to the solution. you need to "show" people. thats how we do it at mb. fuck a critique. ill just push a muthafucka out of the way, make a new layer, and paint on top of thier shit. just as i ask them to do to me. i dont want someone to carefully explain to me in WORDS how to do it. show me in MARKS. its faster, waaaay more descriptive, and doesnt require translation.

  • #15
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    love your posts coro. no BS, just facts. dya think you could relate it to how martial arts were taught in ancient times, where the apprentice only copied the master and gained understanding from themselves?

  • #16
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    #2. I pick things up best by watching others do it and reading about why they did it.

    If #1 hasn't been able to teach themselves how to paint, I'm not really confident that they can teach me.

  • #17
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    i have friends who give me awecome critiques, but can't even draw stick figures. being able to know something does not necessarily result in being good in its practice, imho.

  • #18
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    Fair enough, I just have more faith in teachers who have demonstrated their ability, it gives me confidence that they know what they're talking about.

    That's just me though, personal thing I guess.

  • #19
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    Teacher One should be Shot in the FACE!

    Similar to El Coro.. Mr. Wang at my college couldn't speak the best english but he tried hard and did Great Demo's which barely any other teachers did and it made allll the difference.

    Ahh. I loved Mr. Wang and miss being called Joe-shee

  • #20
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  • Quote Originally Posted by Flake
    #2. I pick things up best by watching others do it and reading about why they did it.

    If #1 hasn't been able to teach themselves how to paint, I'm not really confident that they can teach me.
    lol,
    even the newbiest n00b newbie, can draw a stroke after someone else,
    but when it comes to make something yourself, then its not that easy!
    I mean I watched the gnomon video with Dusso.. sure I had a pretty good
    result, when I did and used exactly the same techniques in the same way,
    but a week afterward, when I attempted to do an own matte painting..
    based abit on his techniques, that turned out like......
    ok, maybe thats just me, but If someone have alot of knowledge about ,lets say brushes, and tell you how , and why to use that brush, in that case!
    thats more worth to me, then if someone just, ehm "I feel for useing this brush, cause it looks good, and Im comfortable with it."

    My opinion!!!!

  • #21
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    endercoskun: while there are exceptions to every rule, i dont think thats true at all. would you take your car to a mechanic who, while has never worked on a car, knows all about them from reading books? would you let someone pack your parachute because they read how to do it somewhere, as opposed to getting someone who does it for a living to do it? see where im going with this? knowelege, especially trade based knowelege is best understood doing the trade. there are millions of small practical things that someone who does it for a living, and does it well will be able to tell you that someone who doesnt wouldnt know. who would you trust to preform surgery on you, an experienced surgeon, or someone who has been reading up on the subject, but has yet to do it? if i want to know how to ground the feet on my character, i am going to ask marko, not my mom. both will be able to tell me the feet dont look right. but marko will tell me how to fix it, and i can take solace in knowing he arrives at his conclusion based off of thousands of hours of practical experience. i mean you could ask people who have no real clue, but once your portfolio lands in front of an experienced artist, where you have been getting your info from will be very apparent to them.-c36

  • #22
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    coro; well of course NOT all my critics are like that "clueless" type, and of course i REALLY value the ideas of those who are successful in their craft. that's why i'm hanging around CA in the first place. but teaching art is not like fixing cars or doing surgery, you do not ask a surgeon to teach you how to do operations. but i totally agree with you that i would rather go to someone like you or marko. but the teacher 2 mindflaw describes is not someone that can tell you what you do is wrong and WHY. it's like "teaching you how to fish vs. catching a fish for you" story. what i say is i prefer someone who can communicate his ideas, rather than someone who fixes your art and leaves you to understand it yourself. if he can do both of them, then he is the PERFECT teacher.
    well, anyway, this depends on what kind of a student you are as much as what kind of a teacher your teacher is...

  • #23
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    Teacher #1... I had some teacher #1s who were able to teach our entire class useful stuff and tips (some of them were even harsh markers) and never really showed us any of their stuff to show it off...

    On the other hand, I've had one or two teacher #2s who were able to show-off their skills of their craft and were totally horrible at teaching us anything useful... We didn't pay thousands of dollars to be impressed by what they done...

    And the worst of the worst, I had a teacher #3--bad artist and bad teacher and bad marker... Hated that class... > At least she was nice...
    LONG LIVE YOKO KANNO!!!

  • #24
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    endercoskun:heh, or the level you hope to achieve. you think surgeons dont learn how to operate on people from watching other surgeons? you are misinformed if you think that. art is a trade based job. just like a mechanic or a surgeon. mechanics and surgeons are more important in the grand scheme of things, but all these professions require skill in a certain way. if you are one who prefers to have your information to be translated into words so you can re-translate it, then more power to ya, but you are adding steps that dont have to be there. i could learn way more watching someone catch a fish than by having them tell me how to do it.

    if teacher 1 tells you whats wrong and why, but cant fix it themselves, then theres a chance they are feeding you mis information. conventions must be based in practical application. that is to say it has to be proven in marks, which are the visual equivalent to words, otherwise, its just words, that may or may not be correct. if i had the choice between someone who can wordily describe whats wrong with my picture and perscribe a lengthy solution to it, as opposed to someone who would just rub it out and fix it on top of mine, id take the latter no question. because i dont have to process the words, and instead can just take in what he did. and apply that in my next piece. its faster, requires less thought, and is directly applicable. im not saying there is a cut and dry black and white right and wrong way to teach art, but based off my personal experiences learning and teaching both inexperienced and very experienced artists, less talk more demo is the way to go.-c36

  • #25
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  • Quote Originally Posted by el coro
    endercoskun:heh, or the level you hope to achieve. you think surgeons dont learn how to operate on people from watching other surgeons? you are misinformed if you think that. art is a trade based job. just like a mechanic or a surgeon. mechanics and surgeons are more important in the grand scheme of things, but all these professions require skill in a certain way. if you are one who prefers to have your information to be translated into words so you can re-translate it, then more power to ya, but you are adding steps that dont have to be there. i could learn way more watching someone catch a fish than by having them tell me how to do it.

    if teacher 1 tells you whats wrong and why, but cant fix it themselves, then theres a chance they are feeding you mis information. conventions must be based in practical application. that is to say it has to be proven in marks, which are the visual equivalent to words, otherwise, its just words, that may or may not be correct. if i had the choice between someone who can wordily describe whats wrong with my picture and perscribe a lengthy solution to it, as opposed to someone who would just rub it out and fix it on top of mine, id take the latter no question. because i dont have to process the words, and instead can just take in what he did. and apply that in my next piece. its faster, requires less thought, and is directly applicable. im not saying there is a cut and dry black and white right and wrong way to teach art, but based off my personal experiences learning and teaching both inexperienced and very experienced artists, less talk more demo is the way to go.-c36
    Hm, you make me change my opinion to a part, but
    What I mean is that if teacher 2, just sit there drawing, and dont have a clue why, he just can do it , how much you learn on that ??
    If teacher 1 draws bit crappy, but can inform you how to
    use materials, and such to make your picture more spectecular, wouldn't
    you eighter listen to someone who can learn you something ?
    against someone who know what he is doing, but not why ?
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  • #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by endercoskun
    well, anyway, this depends on what kind of a student you are as much as what kind of a teacher your teacher is...
    I'd agree with this, different people learn best in different ways.

  • #27
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    i still prefer someone who can explain me the logic, and leave the practice to me to learn by trial and error; rather than someone who can show me how to do it but leave the logic unexplained.
    ok ok, i admit i'm a stubborn wise-ass

  • #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dile
    Hm, you make me change my opinion to a part, but
    What I mean is that if teacher 2, just sit there drawing, and dont have a clue why, he just can do it , how much you learn on that ??
    If teacher 1 draws bit crappy, but can inform you how to
    use materials, and such to make your picture more spectecular, wouldn't
    you eighter listen to someone who can learn you something ?
    against someone who know what he is doing, but not why ?
    ahhh but it also said that you could ask teacher 2 to draw what you request, meaning you could actually have your questions answered in the language that is the most applicable. someone doesnt have to tell you how to do something if they can just show you. also, if it comes to techniques and materials, wouldnt you trust someone who really knows how to use them, as opposed to someone who has read about and failed to become familiar with them? you cant teach technique if you have none. and you cant succesfully teach if you do not own the information you are trying to teach.

  • #29
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    I completely agree with Coro on this.

    I actually chose Teacher 2 without reading the description first though. Then I laughed because I actually chose the right one. (after reading it) Sorry, I'm used to another forum where a poll that asks you to choose between 2 different completely vague options are in the norm. Oops?

    Anyway, back on subject.

    An art teacher who can't draw or paint is worthless. "If you can't do it, teach" does not apply. I think that this kind of thinking is also incredibly dangerous to the art world. If someone is very good at conveying a visual idea through words, why the hell can't they actually DO it visually? Talent? I don't think so. If a teacher truly understands color, proportion, figure and ground, etc. it would easily show in their work. If it doesn't, it means they don't freaking understand it!

    There's another thing about all this that might just be limited to my personality: Respect. I have a really hard time respecting someone's opinion when I dislike their work. The biggest question that runs through my mind when someone like this is critiquing my work is, "What the hell does this person know?"

    Coro said it best: "art is a visual language." Cut out the middleman. (spoken language)

  • #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by el coro
    also, if it comes to techniques and materials, wouldnt you trust someone who really knows how to use them, as opposed to someone who has read about and failed to become familiar with them? you cant teach technique if you have none. and you cant succesfully teach if you do not own the information you are trying to teach.
    Yup, pretty much what I was getting at, probably phrased more clearly though.

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