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Thread: water-mixable oils....

  1. #1
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    water-mixable oils....

    I am only using Artisan water-mixable Oils and I always asked myself if they are as good as real "oilcolors" or if I should safe my money and buy the real shit.
    So what do you and especially the experienced dudes over here think about that?

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    Never tried water-mixable since I was told to stay away by a number of artists.
    I was told they dont quite feel the same way as oils and can really ruin your brushes while being harder to clean.
    It couldnt hurt to buy a few real oils and see which one you prefer.

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    There's no reason to use water mixables. It's possible to use real oils even if you are dead set against using solvents (and there are really very few good reasons why you should be). Use what you have, but as you run out replace them with the real thing. And by the real thing, I mean a good, artist's grade paint. Part of the problem with water mixables is, since they're marketed towards amatures and hobbyists, they're not great paint in the first place.


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    Water mixable oils????? What the hell will think of next? Watercolor pencils!

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    well I kinda grew up with these water-mixable stuff, so I don't seem to have a clue about the pleasures of real oilpaint, so I'll try them. Too bad that I spend a fucking lot of money for that stuff.....

    Thanks for the replies, dudes!

    Elwell- one question: there are a number of companies wich say that their oilpaint is artist-quality( so do the companies who make these water mixable stuff), but how do I really know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfwalls
    What the hell will think of next? Watercolor pencils!
    In fact, those exist for quite some time now.

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    My dad gave me those same Artisan paints. I hate them, actually. They are really pastey and hard as a rock fresh out of the tube. You can't really "dip" your brush into them. You have to mash it in. They act more like acrylics, and don't go on smoothly. I use them for fast practice sketches now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloominati
    Elwell- one question: there are a number of companies wich say that their oilpaint is artist-quality( so do the companies who make these water mixable stuff), but how do I really know?
    Unfortunately, you get what you pay for. If a company makes two lines of paint, avoid the cheaper one. Prefessional quality paint lines will generally have a larger selection of colors, with more price variation from color to color.


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    I've been using the water mixable oils. The last time I had tried oils (years ago) I had a bad allergic reaction, so I tried these water-mixables since I like the mat feel they give. I never actually use water to thin them with. My brushes ARE hard to clean sometimes, can't get the oil out of them, even with the "Brush cleaner and restorer". It's a chore to clean them several times. And some of the paints are too thick, have to add some linseed oil to them to match consistency with the other colors. But these problems seem to be relative to regular oil problems?

    Anyway, after buying alllll these water-mixables, i'm wondering if i shouldn't have just tried some other brands instead?

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    If you're not actually mixing them with water, there's definitely no reason to use water mixables. You can clean any oil paint out of a brush using vegetable oil followed by soap and water.


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    oooo... vegetable oil. Thanks elwell... again, I never could find what was causing the allergic reaction, which is why I tried the watermixables. Seems like I read somewhere that a few percent of people are allergic to oil paints? But I have no clue what causes it, it's not the linseed oil.

    Edit: After doin some more googling, finding some new information I couldn't find a few years ago on the web...

    *Chromate pigments (chrome yellow and zinc yellow) may cause skin ulceration and allergic skin reactions (such as rashes).*

    This may have been it, in case anyone else has had the same problems.

    Last edited by Bowlin; April 23rd, 2006 at 04:52 PM.
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    If it was a skin reaction, it was probably turpentine. Fortunately, unless you're using natural resins, turps can be replaced with odorless mineral spirits (Turpenoid, Gamsol, etc) with little ill effect.


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    bowlin,
    i know a couple of people very sensitive to oil paints and thinners.
    one even wears plastic gloves while he works.

    sometimes odorless thinners are just that... "odorless".
    they are still just as bad for you, you just cant smell it.
    try using Gamsol,
    it evaporates 5 times slower than turpenoid, so it shouldn't be as bad.

    also, emphasize cleanliness.
    it drives me nuts when my students have paint all over their brush handles.
    be surgical about it.
    (i know i might not have done this myself at a.o.l., but i assure you it was because i was rushed)

    there is no need for you to actually be coming in contact with the paint.
    so, like elwell said, its more likely the thinner.
    if the gamsol doesn't do the trick, use just straight linseed oil to thin your paint.


    gloominati,
    as for water-soluables....i hate them.
    (but i hate acrylic too)
    a good oil paint feels like a soft butter when you apply it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSillustration
    sometimes odorless thinners are just that... "odorless".
    they are still just as bad for you, you just cant smell it.
    Not as bad, different bad.


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    Thanks Elwell and Dan! Yeah, when I played with oils and had the elergic reaction, it was years ago and didn't have a single clue what I was doing, paint everywhere. That makes absolute sence that I should never be in contact with the paint (except when cleaning brushes). I don't believe I've ever used Turpenoid, always see it, but never gave it a shot. Thanks, will try! Now what am I gonna do with 100 plus tubes of watermixable paint?

    Wait, can you use gamsol with cobalt drier? or some other type of drier? And Dan, you had three different types of mediums set out? Some linseed, turp(?), something else?

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    speaking of allergic reactions, the cheaper solvents and mediums tend to have more fillers and unrefined oil than the better quality stuff, so its has more stuff you body wont like too much.. you're more likely to have a bad reaction to it. i was using cheap hardware-store linseed oil for a while until i found out it made my skin really itchy.. i immediately stopped when i found out that was the culprit, and now, even when i use better linseed oil, it can irritate my skin if im not careful... so play safe!

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    water mixable oils kick ass because they dry very fast (not as fast as acrylics though). & they are much healthier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSillustration
    ...also, emphasize cleanliness.
    it drives me nuts when my students have paint all over their brush handles.
    be surgical about it.
    (i know i might not have done this myself at a.o.l., but i assure you it was because i was rushed)

    there is no need for you to actually be coming in contact with the paint.
    so, like elwell said, its more likely the thinner.
    if the gamsol doesn't do the trick, use just straight linseed oil to thin your paint.
    ...
    So, I take it you disprove of - oh, let's just hypothetically say - wiping the paint brush on your hand?


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    Quote Originally Posted by magicgoo
    So, I take it you disprove of - oh, let's just hypothetically say - wiping the paint brush on your hand?
    haha! definetly.
    marshall arisman, a well known illustrator, paints with his hands, and a rag.
    he developed arthritis in his hands by the time he was 35.
    a direct result of the paint, he claims.
    now, he takes a bath mixed with apple-cider vinegar, to purge the toxins from his pores.

    i have a feeling that something worse than arthritis may develope some day, though i certainly hope not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    Not as bad, different bad.
    Suggestions? I'm genuinely interested. I've used acrylics for my entire career, (lateley photoshop). I'd like to give oils a go again, but I have terrible cross-ventilation in my studio, and would prefer not going the solvent route.

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    I remember when these water oil things first came out and the reps were sure they would change the art world. One thing they did say was that the water was not really meant for mixing but for cleaning. But that is neither here nor there. The fact is that when any medium or method, whether magical oils or the computer, is used or touted as a shortcut or somehow magical there is danger. I'm sure if you talk to any of the good artists here on this board you will find that they use a medium because of its character and personality and are not looking for a faster, super secret way to paint. If you don't love the way that oils, built slowly in layers, can create amazing color and glow - If you don't love the way oils go on like butter and can create a surface which screams to be bitten - If you don't love the smell of linseed oil, walnut oil, pigment, and mediums, then find something else that you do love. My students constantly try to force mediums to do what other mediums do more naturally, e.g. watercolor to look like oils, because they are seemingly easier to use. By doing this they miss the beauty of what watercolor can really be (not to mention that watercolors are in reality one of the hardest mediums to use well). If you truly love what these water oils look like, smell like, and what you can do with them then by all means use them. But if you are using them as an easy way to use oils then trash them. I think people make the technical side of oil painting seem more difficult than it really is. In truth getting good at anything takes time and effort. Use a medium because it speaks to you not because it will shorten or somehow make your time at the table or easel easier. And if your body is telling you to use something different don't argue. There are plenty of ways to work out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloominati
    I am only using Artisan water-mixable Oils and I always asked myself if they are as good as real "oilcolors" or if I should safe my money and buy the real shit.
    So what do you and especially the experienced dudes over here think about that?
    I have Artisans, Max, and Duo water-miscable paints (as well as a range of regular oils.) Some (not all) of the Artisan and Max were hard, but not the same colors. All of Duos I've looked at have a good consistency so far. As far as I know Grumbacher is the only one that produces a "student grade" of these, Max2. All of these cover as well for me as the regular pro-grade I use. Money is not a deciding factor, really. I've bought pro-grade regular oils in the past that were crap, and cheap ones that were fine. I haven't seen that these dry any differently than regular paints.

    Using water is cheaper than buying solvent, and there's no the odor and allergy concerns, but there are other options with regular paints you can consider as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarman
    I remember when these water oil things first came out and the reps were sure they would change the art world. One thing they did say was that the water was not really meant for mixing but for cleaning. But that is neither here nor there. The fact is that when any medium or method, whether magical oils or the computer, is used or touted as a shortcut or somehow magical there is danger. I'm sure if you talk to any of the good artists here on this board you will find that they use a medium because of its character and personality and are not looking for a faster, super secret way to paint. If you don't love the way that oils, built slowly in layers, can create amazing color and glow - If you don't love the way oils go on like butter and can create a surface which screams to be bitten - If you don't love the smell of linseed oil, walnut oil, pigment, and mediums, then find something else that you do love. My students constantly try to force mediums to do what other mediums do more naturally, e.g. watercolor to look like oils, because they are seemingly easier to use. By doing this they miss the beauty of what watercolor can really be (not to mention that watercolors are in reality one of the hardest mediums to use well). If you truly love what these water oils look like, smell like, and what you can do with them then by all means use them. But if you are using them as an easy way to use oils then trash them. I think people make the technical side of oil painting seem more difficult than it really is. In truth getting good at anything takes time and effort. Use a medium because it speaks to you not because it will shorten or somehow make your time at the table or easel easier. And if your body is telling you to use something different don't argue. There are plenty of ways to work out there.

    bill

    http://www.boisestate.edu/art/carman

    hehe well yeah, as I have already said some posts before, I kinda grew up with this water mixable oils. When I started painting in a really bad painting course, the teacher swore that these water mixable oils are really as good as the real ones and I as a person who has never ever painted before believed every word, hehe. So I really don't use these kinda oilpaint to have an easy life but I am using them because noone ever told me that they are bullshit. But now that I know it I will buy some high quality oils and see what happens..

    Thanks for all the replies dudes, you really opened my eyes cause I would't have expected that this stuff is that bad..

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    In sheridan's illustration program they won't let us use real oil paint because of the solvents used ... so we have a choice between acrylic, water mixable oils, and this walnut oil type stuff where you use walnut oil as the official solvent.

    I'm probably the only student in my class who uses water mix-able oils as well.

    They can be really annoying to work with, especially the first coat on a toothy canvas, but I find they slide around (like buttery oils are supposed to) on gessoed masonite. Don't try to pull them across a surface that isn't sealed and smooth.
    Average coats are nice because they dry within a week and my painting classes are weekly, so that works out.

    They might not be real oils which I might use when I get out of art school, but right now I really don't have a choice. I dislike the overall feel and technique of acrylics immensely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennygeeze
    In sheridan's illustration program they won't let us use real oil paint because of the solvents used ... so we have a choice between acrylic, water mixable oils, and this walnut oil type stuff where you use walnut oil as the official solvent.
    Jesus H. Christ.
    pld:
    Have fun not learning how to paint.


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    is sheridan pre-k now? honestly.

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    Walnut oil is actually a binder like linseed oil. In fact it actually preceded, or was contemporary with depending on who you ask, linseed oil. Using walnut oil as a medium or solvent is pretty safe and is real oil paint binder. Walnut oil also takes a lot longer to spoil than linseed oil. Spoiling linseed oil causes that pungency which oil paint has. Of course I happen to like that smell.

    bill

    Last edited by bcarman; May 2nd, 2006 at 12:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennygeeze
    In sheridan's illustration program they won't let us use real oil paint because of the solvents used ... so we have a choice between acrylic, water mixable oils, and this walnut oil type stuff where you use walnut oil as the official solvent...
    Even I'll agree that's extreme; although, that's not the first time I've heard that rule for a classroom. If the place is not properly ventilated, solvent use would be a bad choice.

    -DBC

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    Try linseed oil that's what my art teacher told me to get and he's been doing art for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwell
    Jesus H. Christ.
    pld:
    Have fun not learning how to paint.
    I'm still learning to paint...
    Looking, mixing... planning, drawing....

    It's like playing the crappy guitar from garage sale until you get good and then go buy a nicer one.

    And besides... I'm glad they don't let solvents in if they don't have the proper facilities. My highschool teacher was fine with kids using turps just in a regular classroom, they spilled the shit all over the place, it got dumped across the desks and nobody knew what they were doing. I was breathing a room full of it for an hour everyday. I don't trust the other people in my program enough with the same stuff. Acrylic paints for them I say...

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