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Links to some other useful threads that will help in everyones learning
The Peer Project
A great thread created by Idiot Apathy focusing on colour theory, lighting, form and more.
Digital Painting in Photoshop
Bumskee's thread about some great basics and not so basics on painting digitally.
Don't worry it's pertinent to photoshop and painter, and the rest really.
Ok, I have created this thread because some new members have expressed an interest in having a thread where they could help each other and be helped in their art. The whole of CA is great for this but I thought a specific thread that they could come to for more direct help might be useful.
I will try my best to organize the thread and I will post a new topic each week to try and help people to improve.
I know I also have a long way to go in my learning so I will try as far as possible to join in with the topics so that I can learn as well.
Any pros or more advanced artists would be very welcome here as your experience would be very helpful to us.
So welcome all new artists or anyone else who wants to join.
Let the learning commence!
Last edited by Infinitum; April 6th, 2006 at 05:10 AM.
I am in, just tell me what the topic for this week, day, month (or whatever) is and I will get started. I will try to keep up as much as possible, but I am studying a lot so that takes much time.
Any ways, I'm in...
By the way, will this be a "class" where we learn to draw with pencil or using computer programs?
Great Infinitum, I'm subscribed to this thread!
Originally Posted by KarderBy the way, will this be a "class" where we learn to draw with pencil or using computer programs?
Haha I don't know.. I hope with pencil because that's a part really need to practice!
I will try and set times for the topics that gives people room to fit it around anything else they are doing. There is no point trying to create short strict deadlines that knowone can keep to.
I was intending to start with pencil and the basics. This is an area often rushed through to get to the creating characters etc. I have done that myself before.
So I think to start at the beginning would be a good idea.
I thought we could move onto computer work over time.
I'm open to any suggestions though.
So, enough talk lets start on the first topic.
I think it best to start simple. I have been given the impression that you are all new to drawing so if i'm telling you things you already know just say and i'll change it.
So for this weeks topic I want:
- A page with a cube, cylinder, sphere and cone on it. Picture them as if they are all one the same surface. Then set a light source, say coming from the top right corner. Then focus on the shade and value of thes objects. Including shadows both on themselves and the other objects.
We will begin with that and if everyone finishes early I can add the next thing.
Have fun with it everyone.
Last edited by Infinitum; April 6th, 2006 at 05:15 AM.
kais - I suggest you use an imaginary sun as your lightsource instead of an imaginary spotlight. Rendering planes becomes alot easier that way. The difference would be that the rays of light coming from a sun type lightsource are parallel and does not diverge the way a spotlight does (the rays in your drawing are divergent like if it was a spotlight). This is better because you don't have to worry about shading gradients on plane surfaces (like you have on the top and side of your cube). In the case of parallel light rays the only time you have to render some type of gradient on a plane surface is when there is reflected light involved. I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't put gradients across plane surfaces, because plane surfaces in nature rarely looks like that. Also I think you should create more distinct value differences between the different planes. Value is what creates form and right now your cube seems really flat because all the planes are almost the same value (except for the gradients). When rendering a cube or other shape consisting of plane surfaces you should try to achieve what Scott Robertson calls a "1, 2, 3, READ". That is, a clear distinction between three planes that will give form. Scott has some pretty simple rules for how to achieve this. If you have a value scale from 0 to 10 (where 0 is white and 10 is black) you start with assigning a value to your light plane, in this case let's say 4. Then for your shadow plane you go "half way to black" meaning the value that lies between your lightest value and black, in this case it's 7 (10-4 = 6 | 6/2 = 3 | 4+3 = 7). Then for your mid value you chose something in between 4 and 7, in this case a 5 or 6. Your cast shadow could be the same value as your shadow side or slightly darker. If your object was pure white the different values would be 0, 2 & 5. If it was pure black it would be 10, 10 & 10 (the darker an object is, the less contrast between planes). I'm not gonna crit your curved surfaces cause I don't know how to render those myself yet .
Infinitum - I think this is a real good initiative. I'm gonna be stopping by as often as I get a chance, and if these excercises go a little more advanced I'll probably hop in and join the fun
For more info on how to render simple matte geoshapes like these and how to calculate the value relations between the planes and how cast shadows fall on the ground I recommend this DVD and it's follow-ups. It's from Gnomon and the instructor is named Scott Robertson. Real good stuff.
Welcome Kais. I'm pleased to see a response so soon.
Your basic forms and perpective are quite good. Though the cylinder is a bit out. The view of the end in yours is almost round but it should be more of an oval at that angle.
Your shading also isn't bad. But try to keep your lines smoother and a little less sketchy.
The main thing that could be improved on here I think is the cast shadows. They should be darker and the angle is slightly out. I can see why you have done them at the angle you have but if you imagine the objects in a 3d world your light source is more from the side as well. That would make the shadows project almost totally side on at this angle.
I hope I have explained this clearly enough. If I havent just ask and I will try again.
Also once a few more people have posted I will do a drawing to better illustrate the above points.
Thanks for your advice thier Boogieman. Those are good comments.
I'm glad you like the idea of this. Your welcome to join in whenever you are ready. Though if you say you struggle with curved survaces maybe you should give this ago anyway.
Thanks for posting.
After your post I decided to do this anyway. Learned a bit actually, think I converted some theoretical knowledge into practical know-how, which is good Not very happy with the curved objects tho (as expected), and I could've done the rendering alot cleaner, but whatever. It is what it is, any crits appreciated.
Hello. I havent posted here in a long time but ive stopped by from time to time. i spent the past couple of months working on improving my line drawings but now that im trying to get more into rendering i realize that i need more practice in it. so heres a quick one of mine before work. i think ill try another one when i have more time.
great thread by the way.
"I do what I do because I dont know how to do anything else" Kevin Smith
Boogieman: I liked ur sketchtechnique, but u should remember to really look at it when u r done. Let it take a few minutes and do something else, and then look at it. The shadow of the circle does not make sense and also if u look at the side on the cube that is furthes away from the light has too large difference in darkness.
Master Krepta: You should try to fade out the transfer from light to dark a little better. Maybe put some motre time into it.
I found your thread today, and I´d like to join in. Bought new pencils and a new rubber today, ached to try them out, so why not on basic shapes?
The light source is supposed to come from above, like sunlight or so.
I really like boogeyman´s drawing, it´s so fluid...
Master Krepta: Is your quadre supposed to be flying? 8)
Well Im glad to see that not everyone is a master of arts around here. Let´s keep this thread up and filled with cool exercises
edit: just found out that I accidentally rubbered out a piece of the cylindar. It was there, I swere it ^^
There is a day when all departs
I´m coming out of age,
all your chains and all your wards
someday will be unmade.
Be prepared of me these days
as all of you shall be
when all my false and rodent faiths
break ´way just as do we.
Krepta - I suggest you establish a ground plane (by drawing or imagining a horizon line) and placing all your objects on top of that plan and make sure they line up decently in perspective. It doesn't have to be perfect but having some sort of grid to align the objects to will help lots. And it helps in making your objects to appear grounded instead of floating. Also, I think you should look up the concept of "core shadow". The darkest plane of a curved surface is the core shadow that appears in the transition between light to shadow side.
Karder - Thanks for the crits. Saying it was done in a rush is never an excuse, but it was You're right that the cast shadow of the circle is looking retarded. I didn't know how it was supposed to look like and the solution I came up with was really bad... And you're also right that I went to dark in value on the shadow side of the cube, disregarding my own advice about "half way to black". The way I did it looks like the upper half of that side of the cube is painted in a darker tone than the rest. Which is bad.
Tiava - Thanks! But it's Boogieman, not Boogeyman. Boogie as in dancing In your drawing I think you did well with the "cube". You established a good 1, 2, 3 and you shaded the planes uniformly and without gradients. Your value handling is alright (altho mostly midtone), but I think you should try and define some edges a bit better. Right now things that contrast alot to the background and should have hard edges (like the shadow side of the sphere) are very fuzzy, while things that contrast very little to the background and should have soft edges (like the light side of the cone) are defined with line making the edges very hard. Also, I think you should dig up some literature (or a DVD) on how to accurately cast shadows. All your objects seem nicely grounded on a common plane, so I think you should go ahead and actually draw out the horizon line for this plane and establish a light source that you can use to calculate your cast shadows (info on this in Loomis amongst others).
I feel kinda like a pompous ass for acting like I'm an authority at this. I'm not! Just spotting flaws and trying to help. You've already seen what I can do, so it's up to you if you wanna take my advice or leave it.
here's mine! I think I went a bit tomuch perspective compared to the rest.
my shades look awfull, I know
Keep giving those comments! It helps us!
Your drawings look nice! Good values!
hey, guys.. i just wanted to say that its great to see that you guys are all working together.. these simple projects are the fundamentals in which all drawings are created. Keep in mind always that the direction in which you will render should follow the direction in movement or curve in which your objects are placed... for excersizes like these it would be nice for you guys to try and create lighting by using the two extemes. Meaning there should be ultimate black (somewhere) and pure white. This will help you guys find range in your artwork and create mass and what I love the most contrast. Also, I know that alot of you guys are beginners but, I do want to say that even in these very tedious projects always put your best foot foward. dont think that just because your learning fundamentals its not important to have pride in your work. Work on everything as if it were going into your portfolio. This will just help build work ethis in the future and will help make a mere cone look like artwork as oppose to just an excersize. Keep up the good work... If you need help with some assignments let me know. Good luck guys..
Mainloop- man i must be dyslexic.. cuz i thought you asked how many people are on lsd
Well done everyone for doing this. I am pleased to see such a response.
I am going to try and give you all individual below.
Boogieman - To begin don't worry about posting advice or feeling pompous. I worry that I am sounding pompous too but people have shown a willingness to learn and I feel we can all work together to improve. A good quote to keep in mind is by Richard Bach from his book Illusions. "You teach best that which you most need to learn".
Now your work. Your values and shapes are good. But as you said the curved surfaces need work. I think the main thing that would improve those would be to include some reflected light. Also your cast shadows are out of line in some places. Particuarily on the sphere. Try to imagine lots of straight lines hitting the objects and being stopped by them. It helps to think of them like that.
Overall good job though.
Master Krepta - Welcome. The main thing I think you need to work on is getting the shapes looking solid before worrying to much about the rendering. The base of a good rendering is the drawing underneath so it is important to get it right. You also need to work on the values and shadows. However your overall understanding of the light source is quite good.
Well done for joining us.
Tiava - Welcome to you as well. Your shapes seem quite acurate and I like your layout. I think the main thing you need to work on is value. Try to make your darks darker and lights lighter. Also your cast shadows would be shorter if the light source is from above.
Thank you for joining us.
Kei-th - It's good to work out perspective like that. Those skills will be useful for more complex images. However sometimes the eye can be more accurate on it's own. I think maybe your curved objects would have been more accurate if you had done them by eye just following the rough perspective lines. You need to work on you values. At the moment the shading is all fairly similar. Also your cast shadows are a bit confused The cylinder and cube are fine but the cone is at a different angle and the sphere dosn't have one at all.
In generall though you have done well.
I hope this has helped everyone.
I will post my version of this tommorow with an attempt to explain some of the points I have mentioned.
Also since everyone has done this so quickly I will post a new topic in the morning as well. That will give anyone else who wants to join the chance to.
Well done everyone. I am very pleased with the response.
Thanks for posting Vigostar. Your advice is very good as always I would welcome any topic suggestions. Also have you looked in our sketchgroup thread recently. I posted there the other day. I think we should work more activly there as well.
Thanks again for the advice.
thank you Boogieman and Infinitum for your comments, I ll make another one after I get back from school, unless of course, you put another topic
Cool stuff here. Once again, just saying this is a great Idea, but can I make a suggestion? I think that this should be sort of like the peer project, in that the projects are open ended for whoever wants to do the if you come late. Just my two cents.
Did one with a pencil side and one hatching attempt just because I needed the practice. This came at a good time, I've been doing digital for a few days now and I needed to get back into pencil. Also I didn't actually plot out the perspective or shadows so It's probably wrong.
Here are my sketches. The cube, cylinder, and cone were don during class (boring math class) and the sphere was added later. That is why the sphere looks a little bit different. Now please crit as much as humanly possible. I already know some things that i could have done better, but I want other peope to tell me too
Could some one please tell me how to post pictures in the thread, the CA help did not work. I did exactly as told.
Any ways, my sketch is in the link. Please crit.
PS. The quality of the picture sux because I took it with a digital camera. Dont have a scanner...yet.DS.
Last edited by Karder; March 31st, 2006 at 01:23 AM.
Welcome Cup of Joe. I think that is a good idea to leave the projects open ended. I don't want to exclude anyone. I will post new topics but if anyone comes along and wants to do an older one, or one of us wants to revisit an old one then that is fine.
Now your work. When drawing something like this it is important to think about perspective. It will help your cast shadows alot if you know where the objects are in relation to each other. Your top one has a confused light source making the objeccts seem disconnected.
However your second one is much better. I think the main thing you should work on is getting your initial drawing mor accurate and solid. The rendering can then be built on top of that.
Karder - Don't worry about using a digital camera as long as your work is here then it is fine.
The first thing I would say is don't use lined paper. The lines will distract you and interfeer with perspective. Your cast shadows are good but you should work on value. Making the darks darker and lights lighter. Also the perspective is slightly out on the cube but not by much.
Well done both of you.
Ok here is mine. I hope it shows some of the points I have made above.
Karder - To post images it would be easier to use photobucket. http://www.photobucket.com Once you have uploaded an image there you can just copy and past a line of code that will show the image.
I hope that helps.
Hi Min, Your welcome to join in. Your expertise would be a great help. Yeah the core shodow is a bit strong. That is partly my scanner it does an auto contrast thing when it scans, but, as they say a bad workman blames his tools, so i'll have make the core shadows lighter in future. Thanks for the advice.
thanks a lot for your comments! I didn't knew how to construct the shadow of the sphere and the cone was hard ass well the shadow on the cone is different because the light source is almost directly above it.
Your image looks really good! Did you use anny perspective lines or was this eye work?
Kei-th - If I read your image right the light is not directly above the cone but actualy quite far in the distance. Try to think of the entire scene in 3d space including the light. Your light source is just another object in space.
I have done a very quick paintover to try and show you what I mean. It is not totally accurate but I think it will show my point.
See how the shadow follows the same perspective as your other shadows. I have also put in a shadow for the sphere to tray and show where that would go.
Thanks for the comment on my work. I did it by eye without any perspective lines. I did put in some guidelines for the shadows though. It can help to think about them before fully rendering them. I'm glad you liked it.
i will join but i saw today tomorrow i will post my draw wait me please
thanks a lot these things infinitum you're perfect
Last edited by orkun; March 31st, 2006 at 09:07 AM.
Thanks Orkun. I'm pleased you've joined. I will wait before posting the next topic if everyone is ok with that. Maybe it will give everyone the chance to make some changes to theirs.
hey guys.. looking good here...
Cup-of joe- I amire what you were trying to do in your last post but, like I mentioned earlier. Try and create your artwork as if it were for presentation purposes as opposed to just simple excersizes... When creating your ojects like a cube, cone, and cylinder make those egdes straight. Use a ruler and if you dont have one then use a book, use anything with a straight edge to make those shapes sharp. On the sphere find something circular make that cirle perfect or as perfect as possible... One thing that I would suggest everyone here to get are some circle and elipse templates to work from... They will help you structure your artwork better..I think theres sort of a different mindset when a person draws or colors in something from a drawing thats clean and instantly readable.. When cross hatching make sure that pencil is always razor sharp. So, that you get nice clean lines all the way through. Shade or color between the lines... create a base where your objects are sitting on... this will help you ground your objects better and you'll get a better feel of space and accuracy.
Ian- those look really good.. Nice clean shapes and good range of values.. I do however agree with the core shadow... Remember I didnt mean that every object should have ultimate black and pure white but, as a group it should be there... Also like I mentioned to Joe. Ground those objects by putting down a horizon line, table or something that will help ground your objects....
Keep up the good work guys...
Mainloop- man i must be dyslexic.. cuz i thought you asked how many people are on lsd