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I have been wanting to help develop an art game of some sort to help motivate and assist artists to further their skills on a regular basis.
And what better place to bring it to than these forums?
This thread is for general discussion and updates.
Official Wiki Page : http://www.conceptart.org/wiki/doku....:artgame:index
Story Discussion : http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64235
Concept Design: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64238
Last edited by sciboy; March 23rd, 2006 at 03:24 PM.
Okey guys, i need your input, if i put a multiplayer user editable world at your disposal what levels and characters would you make?
Throw out some art to display that and descriptions of what it is, what happens and how it works, i want to see your ideas and dreams so i can figure out what you guys would like out of this game system.
Last edited by sciboy; March 20th, 2006 at 07:46 AM.
What kind of coregameplay are we talking? It seems like it's heading for a more sandbox thing now, no real gameplay exept the editing of the content, like a playable wiki?
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
You got the idea, really what i'm looking to do is produce tools and a sandbox so people can rapidly prototype games in a progressive and collaborative manner and easily distribute it to other users.
But what i need to know now is what kind of content people would put into the sandbox so i can work out the technicalities, limitations and put one of the designs towards a tech demo.
First stage i'll be taking a simple concept and rapidly developing it while mapping out it's developmental requirements. (4 months)
Second stage is to produce the tools to fill those requirements and streamline the process. (2-3 months)
Third stage is to take another simple concept and put it to the test in a proper engine with the tools. Tweak, add more tools and polish. (2-3 months)
Fourth stage is to implement the multiplayer connectivity and distribution system, metaserver and such. (1-2 month)
Sixth stage is to get the community working on a few small projects concurrently and take all the feedback to work out solutions. And further streamline the development of the engine itself. (Wild guess, 6-8 months)
Seventh stage is to extend the engine and open one large project to put it to the main test after which things will be finalised debugged and released in a public beta with its own site. (God knows)
That's off the top of my head, but i can be optimistic can't i? =)
Last edited by sciboy; March 20th, 2006 at 08:51 AM.
We can, and that's why i want to see some concepts. =)
Also those plans aren't set in stone, it's just a quick idea of the kind of work i'll need to do, and the kind of time it'll take to develop, chances are though i'll simplify it alot more, since after all i don't want to be working on this to that nearly 3 year estimate. =|
So ignore the other stages for now, we need concepts to rapidly prototype a simple game.
And for all i know i may not end up doing a sandbox system, and put together a structured game requiring art to progress, i'm not developing this stuff for myself, i'm doing it to help this community so your input is extremely important.
Last edited by sciboy; March 20th, 2006 at 09:26 AM.
Wow.. this is sounding pretty nuts already. My head is spinning with the details and it's hardley even begun.
Will the game have a theme of some sort? Fantasy? Sci-Fi? War? Mix it up and make it some sort of time/otherworldly traveling game so that all subject matter can be given a chance to shine? I know a lot of artists will enjoy doing something with guns over something with swords and vice versa.
I like the sound of multiplayer. That's what draws me into a game. Being able to play it with others. It keeps things intresting and unpredictable. Plus it's a lot more intresting to talk to another person than an NPC.
No theme yet, no nothing just yet, we need concepts for whatever the users would like to see in a game, you're more than welcome to throw in the concept for a otherworldly traveling game.
Ok. I see what your saying.
A thought about characters occurred to me. Looking at it from a stand point of how to judge readyness and programing, it's seems kinda rediculous but..
it'd be neat if we could draw our own characters. But we can't just draw it and be done, we have to start with the basics. Anatomy, shape, etc. So our character might start off as a stick figure. It will then go on to have a bit more flesh when the stick figures are comming along nicely (ok.. so stick figures are kinda hard to judge...). Basically it looks a bit more like a gesture. Work on the anatomy some more, etc.
By the end it might be a fully coloured, shaded, and rendered character.
Once again.. programming and judging would be hell.. Maybe there would be tasks you had to complete in each form,. I dunno. It's a thought. Feel free to pretend it was never mentioned.
What if the game were a side-scrolling MMORPG akin to Maple Story, but with elements of Second Life. What if individual users could create characters and upload them to the server? They would then select movable joints on the characters body to create a skeleton system, and designate them as hands, arms etc. A simple scripting system could let users create their own animations for their characters. The same scripting system could let them create their own items, defining specific animations, actions, properties, etc. for the items. The creation of items (summoning magic?) would be restricted based on level, xp, money, etc, and would require you to complete quests to create more. At a specific point, a player could be allowed to create a zone within the game. They would create the zone in a graphics program, upload the image to the server, then outline areas to delineate platforms, doors, walls, etc. The player could also create their own monsters as well, similar to creating an avatar, but using pre-made or custom AI scripts. The overall plot could have something to do with a collapsing multiverse perhaps?Originally Posted by sciboy
EDIT: Heh, wrote this while Keng made his post. What if players could also create NPCs and quests within their zone? The balance issues would need to be worked out, but I don't think it would be too hard. The only problem I can see with creating objects, characters etc, would be handling lighting in areas to make it look realistic. Maybe content-creators could mark areas that would be lit on their characters/objects depending on the light source's location, and that would be used by the game to create shadow. It'd look sort-of cell shaded.
Ok, Number 6's character idea sounds much simpler than mine. I like it better.
It's likely it will be necessary to draw the character in multiple poses. I don't want to see any Runescape style fighting action in which the character stands around robotically and the arm goes up and down.
As for weapons, I don't care what they look like, it's a matter of how their strength will be determined. For that, a little money will have to be spent, and some tasks completed.
I like the magic idea though. It tends to be a good way to infuse items with power.
Wow.. this game could be a little genre confused. I kill you with my magically infused gun of science! You could also get silly with this. Have your starting weapon look like the most kick ass sword ever, and your final weapon be a board with a nail in it.
One of the biggest problems I see is to keep the player artistically involved throughout the process. Not just spending their time killing monsters. Not to mention that they are actually working on artistic skills and not just drawing smiley faces.
How about a ranking system for player created content, where a jury would give xp points based on artistic execution? (and maybe additional xp for interesting quests, puzzles or other design elements?)
Yeah, some extra character poses would be necessary if you want it to look good. My idea is that you can draw a skeleton under your character to articulate it. Animations could be created just by telling the game to move a hand from point A to B. Letting the player design the skeleton would also allow for more non-humanoid creatures. The game could be instructed to change the image at certain points in the articulation, but it might cut down on the necessary work a little. I don't think many people would want to fully animate their character for a game.Originally Posted by Keng
I think that people should be able to design their accesories/items/weapons, etc. Their stats could be programmed (ranged, melee), and work as a series of trade-offs in terms of player stats required to equip, object stats, object weight, power, etc. It would be nice to allow for player designed costumes as well.As for weapons, I don't care what they look like, it's a matter of how their strength will be determined. For that, a little money will have to be spent, and some tasks completed.
What if people could also magically paint a portal to a new area on the screen? They could be temporary, but last for different periods of time. Other realms could have a difficulty rating to create a portal to, preventing newbies from entering advanced areas, or stopping people from accessing personal spaces without an invite.I like the magic idea though. It tends to be a good way to infuse items with power.
If a chainmaille bikini can be totally sweet armor, I don't see how this is an issue. But seriously, I don't see a problem with genre confusion. Maybe all the characters are travellers from alternate universes that can travel between the worlds. It makes sense to obtain a "magically infused gun of science" somehow. There could be two chat systems as well, one for normal chatting, and one for role-playing, although rping could be hard to deal with when you have furries, chibis, stick figures, humans and gelatinous cubes inhabiting the same worlds. Maybe an RP only server?Wow.. this game could be a little genre confused. I kill you with my magically infused gun of science! You could also get silly with this. Have your starting weapon look like the most kick ass sword ever, and your final weapon be a board with a nail in it.
Completing quests could lead to advanced drawing priveliges. Players could gain smithing skills to create and sell items, etc. Like Slash suggested, contests could be based around player-created content. I think the contests, coupled with some amazing player/artists would provide a lot of encouragement. To be perfectly honest though, I think a game designed specifically to "teach" art isn't going to be much fun. I think an "art through osmosis" system would be better, where players are subtly pushed towards becoming better by constant exposure to good stuff.One of the biggest problems I see is to keep the player artistically involved throughout the process. Not just spending their time killing monsters. Not to mention that they are actually working on artistic skills and not just drawing smiley faces.
EDIT: Heyyy... what if the gameplay could be sort of like Quantum Leap, or Doctor Who? You'd travel between worlds, and get involved in various things in those worlds, try to help out, etc.
Last edited by Number_6; March 20th, 2006 at 09:36 PM.
I can easily implement a Game Master type system for judging art in real-time,
And as far as graphics go, i do hybrid animation and it has been my experience that for the best simplicity you want to provide the flexibility for 2d and 3d content, cause with moving objects 3d would take alot less work, i was thinking along the lines of using a 3d engine but allowing for static camera's.
So 3d characters in a 2d level? Easy, just put a camera in the corner and put down an image set to face the camera.
So story wise, what's wrong? is the fabric between parallel dimensions been weakened by an unknown force and with reality and fiction becoming closely intertwined you can influence the world around you with your art and imagination?
And how are we going to fix that problem? =)
Yay for adventures of epic proportions.
If you want to make a game that helps, you can do a Color Color Revolution game. (DDR name ripoff)
You have lineart next to a fully colored picture, and you have to color it like the other side. Music is playing in the background and each stroke assesses how close the color is to what it should be and if there are any colors nearby that fit the bill. The more off you are, the more distorted and slow the music gets, and the closer you are the faster and cleaner it is. Can even have multiple shading styles and shit.
Dunno, just a dumb idea.
Actually we don't have to provide a solution right away, we just have to make sure the user recognises the problem and provide some direction,
Maybe traces of information about past expeditions into parallel universes which can be found around the place, and they can open portals to those worlds by painting it and do some elaborate things. =P
But the portals will slowly degrade in quality to the point where it'll just disintegrate, so the better your art the longer it lasts.
And i'm sure you don't want to get stuck in a parallel world without a way back. =D
I think it would be good if we could avoid the whole "leveling" thing and go for immersion, challenge and fun.
Actually that whole art degradation thing could work really well in general, since those who need practice bad will be forced to draw more often.
Last edited by sciboy; March 20th, 2006 at 11:54 PM.
No leveling eh? It could be a bit like FF Chrystal Chronicles then. (I know, the single player stinks). You don't gain levels, just better equipment that improves your strengths and stuff.Originally Posted by sciboy
Maybe as your equipment for battling improves, you will also gain access to new drawing tools. For example in the lower areas with the weaker monters all you have is a pencil tool. No colour either. The world is a big sketch, (or not). Once you have obtained good enough equipment for battling a certain monster you will gain access to a new tool or effect, say you now have a paint bucket. But you only have grey tones available to you still. In a later battle you fight for access to colour. New brush strokes, line tools, a magnifying glass, whatever!
Then there could be focus styles. Anime, realism, cartooning, something else that dosen't have a name but a lot of people share a similar style in, etc. This focus style is easily changeable. In choosing a style though you're given tips and stuff more related to what you're intrested in improving.
I'm pretty sure there is something someone said and want to comment on because they said something similar or I'm building on something they said but I can't find it now...
And sciboy, regarding the game master, that would require multiple people, all of whom would have diffrent tastes, and someone who has that much time to be going over all this stuff.
I just want to say that i would like to avoid the whole RPG mechanic altogether,
With the so far discussed game settings there's already enough potential for fast paced gameplay that combat without significant reasoning would only detract from the experience, i mean we already got multiple worlds and an art based casting system being discussed, that's already killer and widely ranged potential for dynamic fun.
Also if we went purely with game masters, (which we won't, for things requiring instant verification that's just silly) style doesn't enter the equation as you'd judge it based on applicable mechanics and overall quality.
And also for casting i was thinking of using polished art pieces in preperation, and speed painting/sketches to trigger it. I'll discuss how this will be done in more detail later on,
Items in-game is a must but how it affects gameplay would be totally different, essentially to avoid abuse (which most mmorpgs display, leveling for no reason) we would make it essentially part of the campaign and something that helps at certain parts of the game. Rather than being ultimately useful everywhere, allowing us to further control the players direction in the game.
We're making progress. =D
If you do the 3D characters, aren't we going to lose out on a lot of custom designs? It'd be easy enough to create skins I suppose, but we'd be stuck choosing between a bunch of models. I like Keng's idea about gaining more tools for completing quests and such, but that would require the art system to be built into the game.
Originally Posted by Number_6
Here's something a friend showed me recently:
Free paint program. If you scroll past the part where you download the program, you're given a chance to download the Scource Code (aka 105,000 lines of code.) which you may then view and look through.
I've looked through the program a little. It's not bad especially considering it's free. According to my friend it's even got layering somewhere in there. I haven't figured that out yet though as I just got it last night.
Anyway, it might help.
Thank you for linking to that resource however it would be of little use to us and i am only building basic paint capabilities into the game to facilitate coloured speed painting which is the base for the art casting system which is made for the fast paced gameplay that this game will allow, anything else would require alot of time for the user to produce the art and that would be better done in their program of choice and later uploaded to the game.
I never said i was going to only allow for 3d characters, people can customise and build their own 3d models or do the same in 2d, however i believe 3d for their own character would allow for more flexibility and ease to most users than 2d alone could provide.
Oh well, figured it wouldn't hurt to mention it.
Regarding 2D vs 3D, I think that most people will be most adapt at 2D as it tends to be easier access as far as practice goes. It'd be nice to have the 3D option open, but most will probably be going 2D.
The engine is 3d, but they could just as easily use 2d textures on a plane that always faces the camera till a certain angle has been met just as easily.
Okey i've got a pretty good idea of what i'm going to do on the game mechanics and programming side, but we need to discuss content more.
Time to get started on the Story, and Worlds.
Last edited by sciboy; March 21st, 2006 at 09:49 PM.
Hmm.. well, another possibility to being able to fot in multiple worlds into one would be to have one gigantic planet. One where things are still being discovered. There are many cultures who have for thousands of years been isolated from eachother due to natural barriers, lack of exploration, and the sheer distances from place to place. Even the more advanced cultures who have reached futuristic levels of technology haven't seen everything yet.
The isolation from eachother has caused evolution to create thousands of incredible creatures. Many with little ancestral resemblances not only in visual appearance but structurally as well. The cultures also vary drastically. Some of the high intelligence being are not of the same species making for a wide variety of intelligent races.
In some places technology reins supreme. In others magic and voodoo run daily lives. In someplaces neither magic or technology have been developed while in others the two live in harmony.
Recently many of these civilizations have begun to explore their worlds due to sudden risings in curiosity, new question raising technology and supernatural phenomenons.
On another note:
On the portal thing, I seem to recall a creature of the week topic not too long ago of "Portal Opener." Maybe we could use something like that.
As for a fighting system (if there is actually going to be one but yea) how about isntead of just hitting the attack button you're actually forced to think? If you want to block you draw a shield, the better and more ellaborate the shield is the better you block, if you want to attack you draw the object you want to attack with and actually draw where on the enemy you want to hit. That would most likley require a turn based fighting system though.
Also tablet support is more or less a must for something like this.
As for story how about soemthing like this, a large amount of magic drawing utensils (pencils, brushes, choal, tablets, erasers, you name it) has somehow ended up on earth (or any other world of your choice), as they end up in unsuspecting artists hands they teleport the artist to another world/universe/dimension where art, magic and technology are almost indistinguisible (I admit I can't spell, shoot me or hand me a dictionary!) and for the artist to get back to his/her own worl/save the world he/she must use his/her artistic skills...
corny yes but you're talking to a RO player what did you expect?
You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body. - C.S Lewis
My sketchbook, updated whenever I get around to it
like a big nintendoDS?Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar
wouldn't know, havn't played a nintendo DS.. I was jsut typing what I was thinkingOriginally Posted by EVIL
Oh and for the record the last time I played a nintendo was before my best friend got his first comp (in other words I was around 9-10) and it was a nintendo 8-bit.. so I'm seriously not familiar with nintedo anymore
You don't have a soul, you are a soul. You have a body. - C.S Lewis
My sketchbook, updated whenever I get around to it
The DS is a dual screen. One of the screens is a touch screen. They have a chat system I think. You can draw pictures and stuff using the touch screen. You also use it for things such as aiming wepons and moving around.Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar
That's what i am already planning, however we are not doing combat with it, we are just doing magic casting to get yourself of sticky situations and progress.Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar
And unlike the DS, speed painting won't have it's own dedicated window, you'll superimpose your drawing over what you want to affect, computer figures out what it is trying to interact with and applies the action.
And also how long the spell lasts depends on the quality of it, however only a quick few strokes would be required to initiate a 3 second spell.
Plus we won't have it work only with art drawn in realtime in the game, you can prepare detailed art pieces and invoke them with the speed painting.
Last edited by sciboy; March 22nd, 2006 at 04:00 PM.