Effective techniques of gaining knowledge of the human form? - Page 2
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Thread: Effective techniques of gaining knowledge of the human form?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by el coro
    its a two step method.
    1. looking
    2. remembering.
    -c36
    But Coro, what about those that doesn't have any longterm memory, like in the movie Memento, what will they do? You are discriminating. /sarcasm.

    Last edited by Profil; January 5th, 2006 at 06:19 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    BUT, I have a question people. What does studying anatomy actually mean?
    If you have to ask, you will never know.

    -JK

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  3. #33
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    okay, say i wanted to be dancer, but i had no arms or legs. now how the hell am i supposed to do that? or if i wanted to be a sailor, but got sick EVERY time i got out on the water? if i wanted to be a mathematician, no matter how bad id want to be, i would never be able to do it because my brain simply is not hardwired to do it.i dropped out of highschool before i could pass algebra 1. i will admit it, i am a math retard.
    now there are always exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking if you dont have any sort of affinity for it to begin with, you will probably have a much harder time working yourself in a position where you will be able to do it professionally. i dont want to sound discouraging in any way, but i have found in my years the right answer is often the simplest one, and if you are not getting it, well thats what you need to focus on. art is easy if you understand this equation, because all it all boils down to "look" then "draw" then "remember". thats it. honestly. its as simple as that.-c36

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  4. #34
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    Physical touch is best, hire a hooker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    BUT, I have a question people. What does studying anatomy actually mean?
    Do you want us to draw your pictures for you next?

    Take a look at greatness
    SSG#10 is your party host
    I'm the standard of greatness and I'm your new hero, baby~
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  6. #36
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    Steinmetz, another post from you that attacks a user on this board and you are banned.

    I'm not kidding anymore.

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  7. #37
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    Thanks a lot for the help coro, that is what I've been doing. Studying how each muscle pronates and suppinates rotates extracts, detracts and so on. Idraw them from ref and do it from imag. and continually do it until its in my head, jus need to draw from life more for the element of realism. Would u guys say thats a 'good way to learn anatomy'?

    And James Kei- isn't it the other way around,?

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    Thanks a lot for the help coro, that is what I've been doing. Studying how each muscle pronates and suppinates rotates extracts, detracts and so on. Idraw them from ref and do it from imag. and continually do it until its in my head, jus need to draw from life more for the element of realism. Would u guys say thats a 'good way to learn anatomy'?

    And James Kei- isn't it the other way around,?
    Just to point something out, no muscle "pronates, supinates, rotates, extracts, detracts" etc - in fact, extract and detract are not even descriptors of any part of the human body I know of.

    Muscles can only do two things mechanically, contract and relax, which means muscles ONLY pull.

    Pronation and suppination only occur at the forearms and are depenant on whether the radius and ulna cross over or not, if they do, rotation of the palm up at the elbow joint is called suppination and rotation of the palm down is called pronation.

    Just remember that the forearm bones need to cross, if you hand points up or down but rotates from the shoulder it is then either a lateral or medial rotation. Medial rotation means palms rotate in from the elbow joint, and lateral rotation is rotation outwards.

    Yes young padawan, there is much to yearn, and all of it is not nearly enough

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Kei
    If you have to ask, you will never know.
    I think this is a bit dismissive.

    Blog,

    One way to look at the study of anatomy is to consider the human figure or even most vertibate animals. As an artist you could approach this by simply copying the shapes & values you see. If you copy what you see accurately enough you drawing will come out ok, maybe even pretty good.

    The other approach is to develop an understanding of the underlying structures of bone & muscle that are directly responsible for the shapes you see on the surface. By developing a better understanding of anatomy, you begin to develop an understanding of the figure in the same way an engineer understands a bridge, engine or machine. Anatomy teaches you that the figure has mass, it has balance & weight and that moving one part affects every other part.

    A good understanding of anatomy will help you more accurately construct the figure because many of the major masses can be reduced to simple shapes to start out and then refined as you proceed. There can be times when, depending on the model, lighting or other factors you may find areas of the figure visually ambiguous and hard to understand. This is when you can draw upon your understanding of anatomical structure to resolve what your eyes may not be showing you. At least not at first. As your understanding of anatomy improves, you will begin to observe details that an artist who simply copies the shapes would miss.

    Mark Hannon
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by masque
    connecting human form and proportion into convincing representations of human motion is yet another aspect that has little to do with anatomical detail.
    That just doesn't sound like the anatomy I'm studying. It just sounds like you're splitting up terms. Anatomical study can (and should) include the inner workings of the body, as the muscles, joints, ligaments, and other structural elements have everything to do with motion. It's not like we're just bags of meat, magically slinking to the 7-11 and there's a seperate study, only for artists, to discover how the body works; it's all in anatomy.

    So far, Coro's advice sounds the best (of course, I just sacrificed a goat to my graven image of Coro, so I may be biased).

    See, do (add monkeys to taste).

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogfood
    It just sounds like you're splitting up terms.
    yep, i am, to make the point that human form (static or in motion) and anatomical detail aren't necessarily synonymous. i've seen a fair amount of work involving human/humanoid subjects where a lot of attention is paid to trying to delineate muscles, ligaments, veins, etc., on a detailed level but little to the basic forms of the figure, so the whole piece fails to one degree or another. i just think that's something to avoid when planning to learn more about naturalistic figurative drawing and painting. conversely i've seen a great many wonderful protrayals of human (or derived-from-human) figures where anatomical detail is minimal.

    as an example, take a look at the broad history of cartoon animation, where the anatomical details of the human structure in motion are often mimimized, wildly exaggerated or distorted, frequently heavily stylized, etc., but still succeed when the underlying forms and relationships between them are respected. the essence of human form is a great deal more than anatomical detail.

    does anatomy determine the basic human form? of course. but not to the extent that highly detailed anatomical knowledge is a prerequisite for doing successful figurative work. useful? absolutely!

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    have the courage to read about it, but that has to be supplemented with a lot of drawing practice.

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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Kei
    If you have to ask, you will never know.

    -JK

    You stole that from the Jazz guy... Someone asked "What's Jazz?"

    Clever though. I just read it recently.

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    sorry to bump up this thread for the 2nd time but I had another question. That if you ONLY worked from life, and I mean a LOT. Some thousand life drawings with out doing ANY antomy studies from books, you could do pretty good work out of your head right? I mean do you REALLY need to know whats under the skin if you know how light affects form on the exterior?

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    sorry to bump up this thread for the 2nd time but I had another question. That if you ONLY worked from life, and I mean a LOT. Some thousand life drawings with out doing ANY antomy studies from books, you could do pretty good work out of your head right? I mean do you REALLY need to know whats under the skin if you know how light affects form on the exterior?
    I think:
    If you just work "from life" and don't research why thinks look like that then you will have some problems with working "from your mind". Knowing the basic building blocks will give you "more weapons to choose from".
    Knowing how light affects the exterior is good for "texture and material impression". But from life drawing you get more than just the "light thing" you get information about proportions and the mechanics of the human body. Not as detailed as you get from case specific studies becaus you can't just cut up your model to look inside (the book studies would fall in this category, wouldn't they?) but more real. And the same goes the other way. Just book studies for knowing how light works won't be enough because there still is no book that represents light/nature as good as the real thing. But the theories explained in books can be useful for a better interpretation of the real thing.

    In short: Why limit oneself to one type of study when you have access to more?

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    whats the need in others when you can do the job with one though

    EDIT: Studying life is also a much more effectivetechnique of solidifying my figurative stuff, I can see visible improvements as opposed to when I study whats on the inside.

    Simply studying life fits in with coro's equation aswell, does itnot?

    Last edited by blog; January 14th, 2006 at 01:00 PM.
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  17. #47
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    The best way to do this is to draw from life. Get some really wirey, muscular person that has every muscle and bone poking through their skin and get them into all sorts of different poses and draw draw draw.

    I'm taking an anatomy class right now and it seems to be shaping up into one of the most useful things I've done. It's combined lecturing about the skeleton, types of bones, types of muscles, what muscles are composed of, how they move, how they're attached to bone, how they overlap each other, etc. and also life drawing from a model. I'm not sure if anything like that is available in your area, but you should definitely look around and see what's there.

    Art is long and time is fleeting

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  18. #48
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    What I've been doing lately to learn anatomy is: ... learning Loomis's guides to proportion, drawing the skeleton in different poses. Then a good anatomy book that shows the muscles rendered .... I'm using, "Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist" right now. The muscles are rendered as if its a skinless man under bright lighting conditions.

    My approach is that I copy the same picture over and over, repeatly till I can't stand it anymore.. heheh. I've been copying ... lets say, a picture of the muscles of the arm in one pose, same pose over and over trying to get a good feel of what those mucles look like in that angle... let's say the side. Then I draw it from the front repeatedly, then the back view and so on.
    This approach is really boring, yeah, but feels affective to me so far. I had a painting teacher in college for just a couple of semesters (wish he had been there for all my art needs) that was Chinese (a masters in china then a masters here in the u.s.). Showed me that he learns realism by painting the same thing repeatedly, for example a still life, in the exact same perspective, lighting and so on. You paint a bowl of fruits the best you could, then start all over again and do the same painting, but really strive to make it better the second time, then third and maybe fourth time. The point is, it really makes you focus on how to see and analyze ... form, lighting, lines, color, composition and so on.



    Last edited by Bowlin; January 14th, 2006 at 02:39 PM.
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    yeah, but what I was aking was... if you drew from life and that was all you did,and a lot of observation I mean, could you draw realistically in 5 years time?

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    the answer is that yes you could, from your imag., so whats the point in anatomy study?

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  21. #51
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    lol blog. You can't draw what you don't understand.

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  22. #52
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    If you understand how light works on the outside of something and understand how it looks well enough in your visual memory, you can draw it! No?

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    You cant understand how the light works over the surface of say the arm, if you dont know where the muscles are and what they're doing. Just get your head down, and get working! You've had tons of input from the pros, so get to it already.

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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by blog
    yeah, but what I was aking was... if you drew from life and that was all you did,and a lot of observation I mean, could you draw realistically in 5 years time?
    you mean out of your head? not necessarily.. if you get into just copying the shapes all the time and not relly thinking about "what" you're drawing, thats the only thing you;ll be good at, copying shapes.. it takes a lot of memory exercising.. im not sure what marko wes and those guys did to get their visual recall skills so good, but it IS a skill.. just like learning to draw from life isnt just a "natural talent" that some people have or dont.. memory is a use it or lose it thing too.. i remember somewhere reading that all drawing except for blind contour isdrawing from memory, since the moment you take your eyes of the subject and onto the paper you're relying on the memory of what you just saw and now have in your memory.. its just that most people hold in their head for that split second and let go of it once they have it on the paper.. if you do that for 5 years you get good at that, but then you dont exercise your memory any further than that... the trick is to keep it in your head..

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    Yeah I know, excercising drawing from imagination aswell so you can settle what you've learnt from your studies into your head, I forgot to put that.

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    yer thinking too much. i know lots of people who can draw from life flawlessly, but if u ask them to draw something out of their head, and they are lost. drawing from life, and drawing from the head require two different types of concentration. i also find that while they do feed each other in some way im sure, the way i approach those two problems is very different. i feel almost like they are different muscles, and both need to be developed in tandem. you are thinking too much. just relax, because trying to find the best way to train is missing the point when you could just be training. there is no substitute for hard work, and you arent going to find whats best for you by asking people on a forum. the only person who can determine that is you...and the only way you can determine that is by getting off the damn computer and practicing. you will find the answers will reveal themselves as you go along. GET TO WORK!!!-c36

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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by el coro
    yer thinking too much. i know lots of people who can draw from life flawlessly, but if u ask them to draw something out of their head, and they are lost. drawing from life, and drawing from the head require two different types of concentration. i also find that while they do feed each other in some way im sure, the way i approach those two problems is very different. i feel almost like they are different muscles, and both need to be developed in tandem.
    yep thats exactly what i was getting at

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    There are specific strategies for learning anatomy.

    Rey Bustos:
    http://reybustos.com/
    http://www.digitalartform.com/archiv...stos_ecor.html

    Glenn Vilppu:
    http://www.vilppustudio.com/dvd.htm

    Robert Beverly Hale
    http://www.jo-an.com/art_video.htm
    ...expensive, but a good college library will often have them for on-site viewing by non-students

    Doug Jamieson / Draw From Your Head
    http://www.digitalartform.com/archiv...from_your.html
    a strategy for learning a simplified but useful anatomy

    TSOFA Forum / Michael Mentler
    http://www.tsofa.com/forum/index.php
    ...run by a member of this site who has an interest in learning and teaching anatomy

    You CAN be taught this stuff in a way that is much more efficient than uninstructed practicing.

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    Definitely - there is no doubt that you can learn this stuff in many different ways.

    Some of us ARE simply gifted with the mental parameters which allow for ease of conceptual output without need of direct visual input; some of us aren't so fortunate, and for those there are - as JFRANCIS points out - quite excellent resources out there for getting better at such tasks.

    Even those of us who ARE particularly adept at drawing from our heads STILL benefit quite a lot from professional technique study and advice... and everyone still needs the original inputs to effectively output.

    Observe, observe, observe.



    Last edited by pieces_of_eight; January 14th, 2006 at 06:18 PM.
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    I was reading about exactly that question in loomis, and drawing lessons from the great masters, they were saying that anatomy is so important because models move, you need to be able to draw the basics of the pose and fill in the rest yourself. Like what coro said, drawing what you see and understanding what you see are two different things. you gotta do both if you wanna be best. As for how to approach anatomy studies, dl loomis from that other thread and work through figure drawing for all it's worth. i did 13 pages from that book the other day, believe me you will notice a difference even after a solid day of studying. a little of my suck floated away ;p

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