Ooo, thread seems lively today! What should we focus on for the next exercise? Ideas?
@Gauge: I'm not so sure that just desaturating an image will work either, but I did some digging and it seems Photoshops Grayscale Conversion is off too. I'd like to see your link, this is important stuff!
@MindCandyMan: That's really too bad your Atelier is closing down! Always seemed like a great way to learn.
About adding white; I think your talking about when you add white to your paint that it becomes cooler right? Because you have to add white sometimes to increase value? Or perhaps this is done with just the next warmest color or yellow? I guess white will deintensify quicker making it cooler. Anyways, good stuff; streching my brain out. Thanks.
About William Whitaker, I've seen some of his stuff around but I'm not sure where I know him from, I just looked and saw he's a living master at ARC probably know him from there. Funny thing is I LIVE IN UTAH, probably less than 20 minutes away from wherever his workshop will be. I'm reading his bio right now and I've had teachers who had his teacher Alvin Gittins. Where did you find out about this workshop? I think I might go; I'm just starting out with traditional media so I'm not sure how much good it would do but I'd like to see if I can afford it.
They way you put it it seems that the cool north light is actually causing the warm shadows, I can't understand that except as an Illusion but I may be wrong! I have a teacher who says that warm light will always cast cool shadows and cool light will cast warm shadows; I really hate "rules" in art like this, because they do nothing to explain why. Obviously the north light is cool, probably from the sky, so this is the cause of the cool highlights. In contrast to the cool north light the shadows would seem warm but I think he has capitalized on a warm cool relationship here with the rich brown background creating the warm reflected light and has maybe even accentuated it further.
Lordy... that was a long reply. Thanks for reading it...
@purb36: What up dood? Cool to see you in here. Hope this makes sense: いつ来てもかんげいします。
@invinciblewombat: Cool, can't wait to see them and yeah I'd like to see your syllabus.
Warm and Cool Light In Warm and Cool Enviroments.
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The Guidelines: Edited Updated
A: Do the project and create a dialogue of what you did and why. (Try and think about this while you do the project, this is important; we will be better able to learn from each other as well as catch each other's mistakes.)
B: The Dialogue will be analysed by your peers; (Right or wrong, the idea is to have a reason why and explain it. I think this will be key )
C: And of course at the same time peer critiques will be offered. (Pretty simple no?)
D: You shouldn't have to spend a large amount of time on this however spend as much time as you need, give it your best.
E. All Projects/Exercises are of course optional, have no order, and are always open to participation. Start wherever and whenever you want!
F. People who are too embarassed to post their results will be shot on sight, you're here to learn not to show off.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - I strongly recommend you read the discussions and analyses within others posts that are between exercises. I see a lot of the same advice being repeated. Read through this for your sake; I mean don't you want to learn faster?
This being said, sometimes advice or critiques will be given that may be incorrect, or misconceptions; I most likely am not innocent of this either. If you spot mistakes be sure and correct them! Don't confuse these with opinions however, which are never wrong only different.
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Quite perplexed with the effects of Warm and Cool light and exactly what they do to an object and the objects shadow I thought this would be good as the next excerise, nay it's now a full blown experiment. No really defined end result just our combined efforts to really try and figure this out.
So back to our quick and easy friend the sphere in his lonely enviroments.
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Set up: Prepare yourself for however you like to work, a quick sketch of a sphere or whatever. Keep in mind this experiment will consist of several seperate spheres in several seperate enviroments. I think that a medium high gray will work best as the local color of the sphere but feel free to experiment and see if you find something that works better. I'm keeping the descriptions fairly general to see what we come up with. Try and keep these pretty quick so you don't get tired out! Let's say for the purpose of increasing the amount of reflected lighting that the object is surrounded by the enviroment, maybe it's on a corner table surrounded by a wall of the exact same color as the table? Try and keep yourself as blind to everyone else's experiment until you have finished your own!
Part One: Sphere lit with warm light (maybe the ugly yellow lights we use indoors? Or the sun?) in a dull gray enviroment. What light is being reflected into the shadows? What will happen to the color of the object when this light hits it? Don't forget your cast shadows either!
Part Two: Sphere lit with cool light (overcast winter day maybe? Or a novelty lightbulb?) in a dull gray enviroment. Again, what light will be reflected into the shadows. Remember shadows are the part that isn't touched by the direct lightsource, only light from the enviroment. (Generally but this would change with multiple lightsources, ever seen the shadows in a room with many lights?)
Part Three: Sphere lit with warm light in a cool enviroment. Hmm, so now not only does the lightsource have a hue but the reflected light will have some hue in it? What will this do to your sphere? What will be more intense, the eviroment's cool hue or the enviroment's reflected light onto the sphere's core shadow?
Part Four: Sphere lit with cool light in a warm enviroment. Again the light coming from the cool light source will bounce off the warm enviroment most likely everywhere but it is usually most noticable in the sphere's core shadow.
Presentation: Try and keep these of medium size so they will present themselves well in a normal browser window. I'd recommend working larger and then resizing when you've finished. Group them however you want, just try to maximize the space given. Maybe 2x2?
Extra: If your bored why not try a different colored sphere? or enviroment? Perhaps a secondary lightsource? You could try a warm lightsource and a cool lightsource on the same sphere.
Please post any questions, clarifications, comments or corrections! I'll get back to ya!
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I'm going to post in a day or two to give you all a headstart; see ya then.
Last edited by Idiot Apathy; January 7th, 2006 at 06:54 PM.
Guess I'm there first to jump in here. I'm feeling totally out of my depth with this warm/cold thing. Gah. Linkified to keep other people's experiments fresh. No peeking till you're done with your own!
Also, did this a while ago, forgot to post it. The second project in the thread I think. I think I'm gonna try a few more variations on this one, if I get time. (I've been at work everyday for 10 days in a row. Day off on Friday, thankfully.)
@xxEnder: Cool, hope to see you soon!
@Zoeli: Very very nice on the blocks. You put a lot of thought into this one, it payed off! Did you start with the midtone on these? Where did you learn color? Are you self taught like me? Only thing that bugs me, and just a little bit; is the green cubes shadow seems to going up a wall, not sure if that's your intention. Any ways, thanks for sticking around in here; your stuff has inspired some learning for me Now get some days off
Yeah I started with the midtone. I'm am self taught, and it's only since coming here that I've started to realise that I need to work on some colour theory. Before it was just experimenting on my own, and picking up things here and there. Yeah, the shadows could all be way off, I'm not 100% on casting shadows. If you, or anyone else has any information on that, I'd be greatful. Anyways, nothing else from me today. I came home from work yesterday, fell asleep by 4:30pm and woke up at 6:30 this morning. Guess I was more tired than I thought. So today I'm taking it easy.
Hey guys...I need help haha. I wanted to paint these cubes instead of doing it in photoshop so it was a bit harder. But it just doesn't look right...I need some help:
Another thing I was thinking we could do...is that same square painting that I just did except learn to render different materials...metal...wood...ceramic...etc.. Would be really challenging but could be very cool I think.
just found this thread. I certainly could use some training in colour. Now that I'm subscribed, I'll try to participate. I suppose I'd best start from the first exercises, huh? God, I dread this sort of study ...
Great idea for a thread and I hope to get all the projects finished soon. I'm learning tons these days, and it's exciting to know others are as well (even after they've been painting for years).
I did this one a week ago, but didn't post because of the quality of it. This is my second attempt at the project and it took me less time because I knew what I needed to achieve the requirements. Still, the balls dont seem right somehow and I hope you guys can point me in the right direction.
1. I tried going for the yellow light bulb light here. Wasn't sure if I should make the whole ball yellow or not, but did anyways. 2. Here I tried the snowy winter's day lighting. I know this well because it frickin' snows here 3/4ths of the year (and it sucks). The shadow is kinda faded and I attempted to make it look as sick as possible (well to me because I hate snow so much and overcast days in winter). 3. Here's the warm ball with cool surroundings. I put the shadow with dark blue, but not sure if the effect came to the requirements. 4. The final and blue ball in warm colored conditions. I took the longest time on #1 ball because I didn't know how to work with the colors easily. Then I created a process and used the color chart along with the opacity on 11% to blend the colors.
Wow, I am really really pleased with the response and activity in here lately. Really building up speed now aren't we? I think our target audience must be want to know about color huh? Sorry for not being in here lately, busy time of year and semester ya know?
@Zoeli: Wish I could help you on shadows, we've got to find someone else to do that exercise... maybe we'll just try some experiments and find some answers though. Try not to work too hard now . On your reflected light spheres: O lordy, looking at your warm light in cool enviro/cool light in warm enviro, the shading on your spheres goes the entire range, half of the color wheel, from warm to cool and vice versa. Can you explain a little why you thought to do this? I'm starting to wonder myself if you have a lightsource that is the complement of your reflected lighting would this happen or would it just dull itself out until hit gray? Hard to say, but I like how your's turned out. The cool light on the last one turned out a bit green though didn't it? Anyways, cheers. Thanks for sticking with me .
@MindCandyMan: Dude, I still can't find anything on Mr. Whittakers workshop you said will be in SLC, just some Scottsdales AZ workshops in like April. So you used real paint on these cubes?! Your comment is a tad confusing... is it photoshop? anyways that's cool, I should try that. Colors might be a little dull. I think this is caused more by being the same or really close in hue rather than an intensity problem. Might try adding a little red-orange as you get lighter on the red or some red-violet on when you get darker. Kind of a warm cool illusion, not sure how it would look with just sunlight still figuring that out. I'm not sure I agree with Rash Overdrive as far as the seperate block's colors; after all it's about the lightsource AND the material the block is made out of (how it reflects the light etc). So you could have a very intense green block and a very dull red block with the same lightsource, hell if the lightsource was green that's exactly what you'd have under (any)? situation. No I take that back I think what he is saying because the reflected brown background light the red shadow would be a little more intense than the green because of their proximity in relation to a color wheel. Also would the blue block's shadow side be more red or brown like the background? Not sure. As far as the shadow structure itself, is it correct in thinking the shadow's edges on the different blocks should all meet up at a common vanishing point? The green block doesn't seem to agree with that no? I like your idea for rendering different surfaces, I could really use the practice on that. You think you'd be able to set something like that up? I can try but I'm not sure how to go about it. Let me know. Man, sorry you have to read so much again... sheesh.
@Diego: Thanks for the support! Now join in !
@William b. Hand: Duuuuude! William B. Hand is in our thread! Sweeeeet! Start where ever you'd like man, this is all voluntary and the exercises are always open. I don't suppose you have any exercises you could set up for us do you ?
@Rash Overdrive: Nice! I looked at them both in grayscale and your values are pretty close but your core shadow is larger in the color one hehe. I think your cubes look good too, accurate. I think it might be your gray background that is giving you grieve, dulling everything out. You lightsource would seem to have a slight cyan tint to it judging from the hue shifts you've done, I might capitalize on that a little more and emphasize it slightly. Technially I'm not sure if the blue block's shadow should go closer to a red-violet or not, the reflected lighting from the enviroment is gray so it would truly only dull the blue, is the red block reflecting light into the shadow? I'm not sure but it seems a little improbable. You seem to know your fair share about reflected lighting, is there anything you could share/set up to teach us? It wouldn't have to be an exercise, it could be say a diagram or anything really. What you said about the blocks being lighter than the brown ground was really interesting, made sense. Anyways, glad to have you here! Stick around
@MattGamer: Welcome to the thread, make yourself at home . You shouldn't be embarassed to post, it's much easier to learn from it if you do! The lightsource on your spheres doesn't appear to be as bright as mine or Zoeli's, almost like it was covered by a gel filter or something (oh... or like you said, a yellow lightbulb. So it's not as bright but it's more intense. It's not wrong of course, but your gray enviroment should reflect that too (ugh, no pun intended...). Remember gray is a a color that reflects all hues in equal values, no distinquishable hue. However if your lightsource is predominately yellow the gray will have more yellow than any other hue to reflect and will appear yellow. Huff huff... That is a long sentence. Now as a yellow lightbulb the specular highlight on your sphere probably shouldn't be that white, it should be about the same as if you looked at the bulb itself. I'm interested in seeing the color chart you made, it is a very hard thing to understand what you should do with colors until you've actually done it several times. Maybe we can help you out a little bit so do post it. Anyways dude, just keep at it, it's a practice makes perfect thing.
- - - - - - - Edit: I've got some wrong assumptions I put in here, I left them as kind of a thought process so you can see where I was going, make sure you read the experiment part at the bottom you don't get mislead.
Here is my Warm Cool experiment:
I really should have wrote what I did and why when I posted this... damn.
Looking at it in Painter... it seems that my colors also blend along half of the color wheel... bizarre. I don't think I did this on purpose, maybe it's a glitch in the program? I think it may be (looking at the top left) because I chose a gray in the blue range even though it has no intensity painter still blended it down towards blue? It's really only noticable with the color picker.
I was thinking that a lightsource and an enviroment's reflected lighting would cancel each other out with a perfect gray (if 50% lightsource and 50% reflected met) but of course these would have to be the same exact intensity, I don't think value would play into it much except what value the gray would be. But thinking along those lines... your "cool" enviroment would only show up as gray if your direct complement lightsource was the only lightsource. Aiyaaaaa, quite the mindstreching here. Anyways, this experiment was fantasy so the cool enviroment "could" exist but for reasons unseen.
What do you guys think, would there be a hue shift in the blend or straight to gray?
- - - - - - - - - Did a few eye opening experiments in Photoshop: *Note: with the JPEG compression the posted pictures won't work perfectly.
I started out with 100% Intensity and Value #180 Cyan (Number refers to degrees on a Color Wheel Starting with Red at 0. This is also Photoshops Hue Slider!) with an opposing 100% Intensity and Value #0 Red. These should be exact complements, I got them using the invert feature but their hue numbers say it too. I then blended them with a 200px Gaussian Blur, the canvas was 100px by 500px. Unfortuneately I am not a mathematician so after the blur the original colors weren't on the page, o'well the experiment still stands. Anyways, in the center is a Perfect 50% Value 0% Intensity Gray. There were no hue shifts in between! Now, this would be subtractive mixing but I think there wouldn't be a hue shift in additive mixing as well, just different values. *Note: The slight violet you see near the middle of the Red is an optical illusion. This low intensity red appears cooler and thus closer to violet when compared to the high intensity red. Didn't I post something like this?
This is a 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus a 80% Value 100% Intensity #0 Red. Same thing, no hue change. The only difference was the value of the Perfect Gray, approximately 45%.
This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus a 40% Value 100% Intensity #0 Red. Again, no hue change. Perfect gray at approximately 28%.
I then tried mixing this Cyan with some other colors:
This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus 100% Value and Intensity #240 Blue. A perfect sequential hue change, however no intensity change; Interesting! *Note: This Blue is exactly 60 degrees from the Cyan.
This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus 100% Value and Intensity #60 Yellow. Again, a perfect sequential hue change. But much to my surprise the intensity dropped to exactly 50% in the middle, so wild! *Note: This Yellow is exactly 120 degrees away from this Cyan.
The math behind this is so incredibly amazing, and I actually really don't like math. If you were good enough and armed with the proper color wheel you could calculate exactly what should happen to each mixture of colors, amazing.
Can anyone think of how we could do this with addititive color theory? Just so we could confirm it?
Well, as I had a big lack of value comprehension I jumped into this thread. Here are the first results:
About the balls: Really hard but I enjoyed the exercise a lot. Though closing my eyes they looked nearly identical, the desaturate filter showed the truth: the colour one is much darker than the other one. On my behalf I must say I didn't use the eyedropper to watch what values where at the grey ball.
The 2nd exercise made me feel completely lost. Maybe because I chose a quite complex light point (it strikes directly on most of the corners, so I didn't know which wall was lightened and which darker, or if both were lightened), but the fact is it is a complete mess. Any hints of what should I fix?