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  1. #61
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    @Romance: Sweet, was beginning to worry about you .

    @invinciblewombat: HA! I was wondering myself why I haven't seen more things like this out here; decided to be brave and step up. Maybe I'm going to be sued or knocked off by some wierd art school conspiracy group for starting up this open source education... Anyways, where are you going to school? Oh and do some of the exercises!

    @MindCandyMan: very cool to see you in here and excited! Hope you stick around, I'm sure we could learn much from your insight stemming from your "journey" and otherwise; and *cough* maybe you could spread some of that Atelier lovin around...

    I see the orange in your sphere but according to the Color Picker this blended more into a red magenta. The warm orange feel is still there but without even a hint of yellow, very interesting. Somewhere I read that using a little bit of your objects complementary color in the highlights can also create the vibrating effect your talking about. I think... it may have been written by Mr. Manley actually. It's something I've been trying to figure out recently.

    You mention how your sphere would have the opposite hue shifts in North Light. I've heard it recommended many times to paint in North Light, why? How is it different than the other directions? Obviously I think you would get more of the sun in a west or east light, but why not south?
    - - - - - - -
    The warm and cool relationships of colors has really caught my attention recently as well, still working it through in my head really. The warmth would usually come from the sun I'd say and the cooling mostly from the blue sky but also from what I'd call color relativity. For instance a color in sunlight would be fairly intense from the amount of light it is receiving however in the shadow the object would be recieving less pure light and therefore less intense (and of course lower in value). An low intensity red will look cold when next to a high intensity red. Add to this that the sky is most likely the greatest source of reflected lighting filling our shadows with cool light.

    Maybe because light itself is energy that is usually converted to heat that the color of sunlight is considered warm and the color of shadows are considered cool? Would this be the same on Mars? Maybe a little bit due to color relativity I suppose.

    What about say a blue object with a cool light source in a cool enviroment? Will the shadow still be cool enough to distinquish it? Or will it actually feel warm with color relativity?

    Ah so many questions, but it's exciting to me.
    I'm sure at least MindCandyMan is familar with this post of FredFlickstone's I'm still trying to figure it all out:http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...&postcount=373
    Wonder where Mr. Lemen has gone off to?

    Oh, here is the one of the best examples of color relativity (they call it color perception, might be a better name?) I've ever seen:
    http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/O...erception.html
    I usually have a hard time being "tricked" by this illusion (Suppose I should feel blessed) but this one gets me every time.

    Edit: Oh I thought you all might find this interesting. While working on an assignment involving a design featuring colors of the same value but different intensities I found that intensity is also closely related to value. I had to use different "values" of colors with different intensities for them to come out nearly the same in grayscale. Is this a natural part of physics or is this a fallacy of converting to grayscale?

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; November 21st, 2005 at 03:55 AM.
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  3. #62
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    its actually a fallacy of converting to grayscale, if you desaturate the image instead of coverting it to grayscale, pretty often you'll end up with different values. I was actually just reading about that last night, I'll try to find the post but I don't even know if it was in this forum.

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  4. #63
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    idiot apathy - Yeah exactly! The vibrating thing...that's what manley was talkin about at the workshop. Very cool stuff. Don't worry I will be sticking around. The atelier is closed so I am continuing with self study. I will definitely help you guys with whatever knowledge I have...but as far as color I don't have much so we will learn together hehe.

    As far as the north light thing...think about it this way...when you are outside in direct sunlight the shadows are often blue on the sidewalk...that's because the suns direct light is warm and the shadows are cool. But in north light it is the opposite (perhaps because the sky is reflecting???)...you get cool lights and warm shadows. Check out this painting by William Whitaker here:

    http://www.williamwhitaker.com/B_HTM...es/rebecca.htm

    Whenever you add white to something it cools it down...remember that when you are painting. If you add white...you are cooling the color! Check out the highlights of her face...cool...very cool. And the shadows of her face are warm. Bill has a north light studio and you can tell. Btw he is having a workshop in february in salt lake city if anyone is interested...I'm going.

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  5. #64
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    wow, i never really paid much attention, didnt know this was here...so much of the stuff i need to work on. ill definitely be coming here more often, hopefully even doing some of the exercises. gotta go back to square one and read from the beginning, seems like soooo much useful info in here. thx dude; kudos.

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  6. #65
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    @apathy: I'm at DAAP at University of Cincinnati, we've done almost all of these exercizes in one form or another though they want us to do it with traditional mediums instead of digital. I will post them once I can get ahold of a scanner for personal use since the school provided ones are often ill tempered and streaky. I can send you a copy of my color theory class's sylabus for some more project ideas if you like too.

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  7. #66
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    Ooo, thread seems lively today!
    What should we focus on for the next exercise? Ideas?

    @Gauge: I'm not so sure that just desaturating an image will work either, but I did some digging and it seems Photoshops Grayscale Conversion is off too. I'd like to see your link, this is important stuff!

    @MindCandyMan: That's really too bad your Atelier is closing down! Always seemed like a great way to learn.
    About adding white; I think your talking about when you add white to your paint that it becomes cooler right? Because you have to add white sometimes to increase value? Or perhaps this is done with just the next warmest color or yellow? I guess white will deintensify quicker making it cooler. Anyways, good stuff; streching my brain out. Thanks.
    About William Whitaker, I've seen some of his stuff around but I'm not sure where I know him from, I just looked and saw he's a living master at ARC probably know him from there. Funny thing is I LIVE IN UTAH, probably less than 20 minutes away from wherever his workshop will be. I'm reading his bio right now and I've had teachers who had his teacher Alvin Gittins. Where did you find out about this workshop? I think I might go; I'm just starting out with traditional media so I'm not sure how much good it would do but I'd like to see if I can afford it.
    They way you put it it seems that the cool north light is actually causing the warm shadows, I can't understand that except as an Illusion but I may be wrong! I have a teacher who says that warm light will always cast cool shadows and cool light will cast warm shadows; I really hate "rules" in art like this, because they do nothing to explain why. Obviously the north light is cool, probably from the sky, so this is the cause of the cool highlights. In contrast to the cool north light the shadows would seem warm but I think he has capitalized on a warm cool relationship here with the rich brown background creating the warm reflected light and has maybe even accentuated it further.
    Lordy... that was a long reply. Thanks for reading it...

    @purb36: What up dood? Cool to see you in here. Hope this makes sense: いつ来てもかんげいします。

    @invinciblewombat: Cool, can't wait to see them and yeah I'd like to see your syllabus.

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  8. #67
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    Experiment #1:
    Warm and Cool Light In Warm and Cool Enviroments.

    - - - - - - - - - -
    The Guidelines: Edited Updated
    A: Do the project and create a dialogue of what you did and why. (Try and think about this while you do the project, this is important; we will be better able to learn from each other as well as catch each other's mistakes.)
    B: The Dialogue will be analysed by your peers; (Right or wrong, the idea is to have a reason why and explain it. I think this will be key )
    C: And of course at the same time peer critiques will be offered. (Pretty simple no?)
    D: You shouldn't have to spend a large amount of time on this however spend as much time as you need, give it your best.
    E. All Projects/Exercises are of course optional, have no order, and are always open to participation. Start wherever and whenever you want!
    F. People who are too embarassed to post their results will be shot on sight, you're here to learn not to show off.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I strongly recommend you read the discussions and analyses within others posts that are between exercises. I see a lot of the same advice being repeated. Read through this for your sake; I mean don't you want to learn faster?

    This being said, sometimes advice or critiques will be given that may be incorrect, or misconceptions; I most likely am not innocent of this either. If you spot mistakes be sure and correct them! Don't confuse these with opinions however, which are never wrong only different.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Quite perplexed with the effects of Warm and Cool light and exactly what they do to an object and the objects shadow I thought this would be good as the next excerise, nay it's now a full blown experiment. No really defined end result just our combined efforts to really try and figure this out.

    So back to our quick and easy friend the sphere in his lonely enviroments.
    - - - - - - - - - -

    Set up: Prepare yourself for however you like to work, a quick sketch of a sphere or whatever. Keep in mind this experiment will consist of several seperate spheres in several seperate enviroments. I think that a medium high gray will work best as the local color of the sphere but feel free to experiment and see if you find something that works better. I'm keeping the descriptions fairly general to see what we come up with. Try and keep these pretty quick so you don't get tired out! Let's say for the purpose of increasing the amount of reflected lighting that the object is surrounded by the enviroment, maybe it's on a corner table surrounded by a wall of the exact same color as the table? Try and keep yourself as blind to everyone else's experiment until you have finished your own!


    Part One: Sphere lit with warm light (maybe the ugly yellow lights we use indoors? Or the sun?) in a dull gray enviroment. What light is being reflected into the shadows? What will happen to the color of the object when this light hits it? Don't forget your cast shadows either!

    Part Two: Sphere lit with cool light (overcast winter day maybe? Or a novelty lightbulb?) in a dull gray enviroment. Again, what light will be reflected into the shadows. Remember shadows are the part that isn't touched by the direct lightsource, only light from the enviroment. (Generally but this would change with multiple lightsources, ever seen the shadows in a room with many lights?)

    Part Three: Sphere lit with warm light in a cool enviroment. Hmm, so now not only does the lightsource have a hue but the reflected light will have some hue in it? What will this do to your sphere? What will be more intense, the eviroment's cool hue or the enviroment's reflected light onto the sphere's core shadow?

    Part Four: Sphere lit with cool light in a warm enviroment. Again the light coming from the cool light source will bounce off the warm enviroment most likely everywhere but it is usually most noticable in the sphere's core shadow.

    Presentation: Try and keep these of medium size so they will present themselves well in a normal browser window. I'd recommend working larger and then resizing when you've finished. Group them however you want, just try to maximize the space given. Maybe 2x2?

    Extra: If your bored why not try a different colored sphere? or enviroment? Perhaps a secondary lightsource? You could try a warm lightsource and a cool lightsource on the same sphere.

    Please post any questions, clarifications, comments or corrections! I'll get back to ya!
    - - - - - -
    I'm going to post in a day or two to give you all a headstart; see ya then.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; January 7th, 2006 at 06:54 PM.
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  9. #68
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    Good to see loads of posts here recently.

    Guess I'm there first to jump in here. I'm feeling totally out of my depth with this warm/cold thing. Gah. Linkified to keep other people's experiments fresh. No peeking till you're done with your own!

    http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/2155/sphere3sn.jpg

    Also, did this a while ago, forgot to post it. The second project in the thread I think. I think I'm gonna try a few more variations on this one, if I get time. (I've been at work everyday for 10 days in a row. Day off on Friday, thankfully.)



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  10. #69
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    Hey, thanks for the reference; a quick skim through and it seems pretty nice, ill be looking foward to going through it completely.

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  11. #70
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    @xxEnder: Cool, hope to see you soon!
    @Zoeli: Very very nice on the blocks. You put a lot of thought into this one, it payed off! Did you start with the midtone on these? Where did you learn color? Are you self taught like me? Only thing that bugs me, and just a little bit; is the green cubes shadow seems to going up a wall, not sure if that's your intention. Any ways, thanks for sticking around in here; your stuff has inspired some learning for me Now get some days off

    Gunna wait to comment on the warm/cool until we get some more people, but here is mine if you'd like to take a peak. Kind of messy again .
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...7/d3ec1e54.jpg

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  12. #71
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    Yeah I started with the midtone. I'm am self taught, and it's only since coming here that I've started to realise that I need to work on some colour theory. Before it was just experimenting on my own, and picking up things here and there. Yeah, the shadows could all be way off, I'm not 100% on casting shadows. If you, or anyone else has any information on that, I'd be greatful. Anyways, nothing else from me today. I came home from work yesterday, fell asleep by 4:30pm and woke up at 6:30 this morning. Guess I was more tired than I thought. So today I'm taking it easy.

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  13. #72
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    Hey guys...I need help haha. I wanted to paint these cubes instead of doing it in photoshop so it was a bit harder. But it just doesn't look right...I need some help:



    Another thing I was thinking we could do...is that same square painting that I just did except learn to render different materials...metal...wood...ceramic...etc.. Would be really challenging but could be very cool I think.

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  14. #73
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    hey man, lots of very helpful information here, i didn't knew this thread. Now i'm happy, lot of resources.
    Thanks for taking the time.

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  15. #74
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    just found this thread. I certainly could use some training in colour. Now that I'm subscribed, I'll try to participate. I suppose I'd best start from the first exercises, huh? God, I dread this sort of study ...

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  16. #75
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    Very cool thread. I've never done much serious colour work before. So this was good fun.



    I'm not happy with these. I think I might take another shot at them soon.


    MCM: I might be way of on these. But here are some hasty thoughts on your blocks.

    The blocks in the front are reading as lighter in value than the ground. I think this means that there should be more light reflecting on to the gound rather than the other way around.

    On the shadow side of the green block. The reflected light is hitting the wrong corner.

    Maybe less saturation in the green block and more on the red block.

    Darker value in the shadow on the ground.

    here is a paintover that is not very good.

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  17. #76
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    Great idea for a thread and I hope to get all the projects finished soon. I'm learning tons these days, and it's exciting to know others are as well (even after they've been painting for years).

    I did this one a week ago, but didn't post because of the quality of it. This is my second attempt at the project and it took me less time because I knew what I needed to achieve the requirements. Still, the balls dont seem right somehow and I hope you guys can point me in the right direction.

    1. I tried going for the yellow light bulb light here. Wasn't sure if I should make the whole ball yellow or not, but did anyways.
    2. Here I tried the snowy winter's day lighting. I know this well because it frickin' snows here 3/4ths of the year (and it sucks). The shadow is kinda faded and I attempted to make it look as sick as possible (well to me because I hate snow so much and overcast days in winter).
    3. Here's the warm ball with cool surroundings. I put the shadow with dark blue, but not sure if the effect came to the requirements.
    4. The final and blue ball in warm colored conditions. I took the longest time on #1 ball because I didn't know how to work with the colors easily. Then I created a process and used the color chart along with the opacity on 11% to blend the colors.

    Thanks.

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  18. #77
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    Wow, I am really really pleased with the response and activity in here lately. Really building up speed now aren't we? I think our target audience must be want to know about color huh? Sorry for not being in here lately, busy time of year and semester ya know?

    @Zoeli: Wish I could help you on shadows, we've got to find someone else to do that exercise... maybe we'll just try some experiments and find some answers though. Try not to work too hard now . On your reflected light spheres: O lordy, looking at your warm light in cool enviro/cool light in warm enviro, the shading on your spheres goes the entire range, half of the color wheel, from warm to cool and vice versa. Can you explain a little why you thought to do this? I'm starting to wonder myself if you have a lightsource that is the complement of your reflected lighting would this happen or would it just dull itself out until hit gray? Hard to say, but I like how your's turned out. The cool light on the last one turned out a bit green though didn't it? Anyways, cheers. Thanks for sticking with me .

    @MindCandyMan: Dude, I still can't find anything on Mr. Whittakers workshop you said will be in SLC, just some Scottsdales AZ workshops in like April. So you used real paint on these cubes?! Your comment is a tad confusing... is it photoshop? anyways that's cool, I should try that. Colors might be a little dull. I think this is caused more by being the same or really close in hue rather than an intensity problem. Might try adding a little red-orange as you get lighter on the red or some red-violet on when you get darker. Kind of a warm cool illusion, not sure how it would look with just sunlight still figuring that out. I'm not sure I agree with Rash Overdrive as far as the seperate block's colors; after all it's about the lightsource AND the material the block is made out of (how it reflects the light etc). So you could have a very intense green block and a very dull red block with the same lightsource, hell if the lightsource was green that's exactly what you'd have under (any)? situation. No I take that back I think what he is saying because the reflected brown background light the red shadow would be a little more intense than the green because of their proximity in relation to a color wheel. Also would the blue block's shadow side be more red or brown like the background? Not sure. As far as the shadow structure itself, is it correct in thinking the shadow's edges on the different blocks should all meet up at a common vanishing point? The green block doesn't seem to agree with that no? I like your idea for rendering different surfaces, I could really use the practice on that. You think you'd be able to set something like that up? I can try but I'm not sure how to go about it. Let me know. Man, sorry you have to read so much again... sheesh.

    @Diego: Thanks for the support! Now join in !

    @William b. Hand: Duuuuude! William B. Hand is in our thread! Sweeeeet! Start where ever you'd like man, this is all voluntary and the exercises are always open. I don't suppose you have any exercises you could set up for us do you ?

    @Rash Overdrive: Nice! I looked at them both in grayscale and your values are pretty close but your core shadow is larger in the color one hehe. I think your cubes look good too, accurate. I think it might be your gray background that is giving you grieve, dulling everything out. You lightsource would seem to have a slight cyan tint to it judging from the hue shifts you've done, I might capitalize on that a little more and emphasize it slightly. Technially I'm not sure if the blue block's shadow should go closer to a red-violet or not, the reflected lighting from the enviroment is gray so it would truly only dull the blue, is the red block reflecting light into the shadow? I'm not sure but it seems a little improbable. You seem to know your fair share about reflected lighting, is there anything you could share/set up to teach us? It wouldn't have to be an exercise, it could be say a diagram or anything really. What you said about the blocks being lighter than the brown ground was really interesting, made sense. Anyways, glad to have you here! Stick around

    @MattGamer: Welcome to the thread, make yourself at home . You shouldn't be embarassed to post, it's much easier to learn from it if you do! The lightsource on your spheres doesn't appear to be as bright as mine or Zoeli's, almost like it was covered by a gel filter or something (oh... or like you said, a yellow lightbulb. So it's not as bright but it's more intense. It's not wrong of course, but your gray enviroment should reflect that too (ugh, no pun intended...). Remember gray is a a color that reflects all hues in equal values, no distinquishable hue. However if your lightsource is predominately yellow the gray will have more yellow than any other hue to reflect and will appear yellow. Huff huff... That is a long sentence. Now as a yellow lightbulb the specular highlight on your sphere probably shouldn't be that white, it should be about the same as if you looked at the bulb itself. I'm interested in seeing the color chart you made, it is a very hard thing to understand what you should do with colors until you've actually done it several times. Maybe we can help you out a little bit so do post it. Anyways dude, just keep at it, it's a practice makes perfect thing.
    - - - - - - -
    Edit: I've got some wrong assumptions I put in here, I left them as kind of a thought process so you can see where I was going, make sure you read the experiment part at the bottom you don't get mislead.

    Here is my Warm Cool experiment:

    I really should have wrote what I did and why when I posted this... damn.
    Looking at it in Painter... it seems that my colors also blend along half of the color wheel... bizarre. I don't think I did this on purpose, maybe it's a glitch in the program? I think it may be (looking at the top left) because I chose a gray in the blue range even though it has no intensity painter still blended it down towards blue? It's really only noticable with the color picker.

    I was thinking that a lightsource and an enviroment's reflected lighting would cancel each other out with a perfect gray (if 50% lightsource and 50% reflected met) but of course these would have to be the same exact intensity, I don't think value would play into it much except what value the gray would be. But thinking along those lines... your "cool" enviroment would only show up as gray if your direct complement lightsource was the only lightsource. Aiyaaaaa, quite the mindstreching here. Anyways, this experiment was fantasy so the cool enviroment "could" exist but for reasons unseen.

    What do you guys think, would there be a hue shift in the blend or straight to gray?
    - - - - - - - - -
    Did a few eye opening experiments in Photoshop: *Note: with the JPEG compression the posted pictures won't work perfectly.


    I started out with 100% Intensity and Value #180 Cyan (Number refers to degrees on a Color Wheel Starting with Red at 0. This is also Photoshops Hue Slider!) with an opposing 100% Intensity and Value #0 Red. These should be exact complements, I got them using the invert feature but their hue numbers say it too. I then blended them with a 200px Gaussian Blur, the canvas was 100px by 500px. Unfortuneately I am not a mathematician so after the blur the original colors weren't on the page, o'well the experiment still stands. Anyways, in the center is a Perfect 50% Value 0% Intensity Gray. There were no hue shifts in between! Now, this would be subtractive mixing but I think there wouldn't be a hue shift in additive mixing as well, just different values. *Note: The slight violet you see near the middle of the Red is an optical illusion. This low intensity red appears cooler and thus closer to violet when compared to the high intensity red. Didn't I post something like this?

    This is a 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus a 80% Value 100% Intensity #0 Red. Same thing, no hue change. The only difference was the value of the Perfect Gray, approximately 45%.

    This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus a 40% Value 100% Intensity #0 Red. Again, no hue change. Perfect gray at approximately 28%.

    I then tried mixing this Cyan with some other colors:


    This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus 100% Value and Intensity #240 Blue. A perfect sequential hue change, however no intensity change; Interesting! *Note: This Blue is exactly 60 degrees from the Cyan.


    This is 100% Value and Intensity #180 Cyan versus 100% Value and Intensity #60 Yellow. Again, a perfect sequential hue change. But much to my surprise the intensity dropped to exactly 50% in the middle, so wild! *Note: This Yellow is exactly 120 degrees away from this Cyan.

    The math behind this is so incredibly amazing, and I actually really don't like math. If you were good enough and armed with the proper color wheel you could calculate exactly what should happen to each mixture of colors, amazing.

    Can anyone think of how we could do this with addititive color theory? Just so we could confirm it?

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  19. #78
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    Well, as I had a big lack of value comprehension I jumped into this thread. Here are the first results:





    About the balls: Really hard but I enjoyed the exercise a lot. Though closing my eyes they looked nearly identical, the desaturate filter showed the truth: the colour one is much darker than the other one. On my behalf I must say I didn't use the eyedropper to watch what values where at the grey ball.

    The 2nd exercise made me feel completely lost. Maybe because I chose a quite complex light point (it strikes directly on most of the corners, so I didn't know which wall was lightened and which darker, or if both were lightened), but the fact is it is a complete mess. Any hints of what should I fix?

    Keep the good work guys!

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  20. #79
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    Idiot Apathy: Oh yes!! I now see what your talking about and love your crits! I think I was way tired when I made them. I might do them again, darker this time. Thanks a ton... I love this thread.

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  21. #80
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    Allright, the 2nd exercise: the milk jar.
    Forget about the drawing, didn't lose even a minute on them.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiot Apathy
    Part B:

    Red on Red: Because both the paper and the sphere's local color was the same red I figured the reflected light on the sphere would be more intense than either of them. and of course higher in value than the core shadow because I was adding light. Again with the cast shadow I thought very little light other than the neutral enviroment light(gray background) would be reflected into it so I dropped the intensity just a little less than usual and the value about the same.
    Red on Yellow:
    I think when mixing different hues of equal intensity the result will be less intense. I figured a pure red with an equal amount of pure yellow should yield an orange; so I ended up with a fairly intense (red and yellow are pretty close on the color wheel so they shouldn't dull each other too much) orange as the reflected light. Core shadow again, small hue shift less intense and lower value.
    Red on Blue:
    Red is pretty far away from Blue on the color wheel so they will dull each other out pretty quickly. Reflected light was a pretty dull violet. Core shadow little bit of a hue shift, lower value less intense.

    Red ball on yellow paper:

    Paper absorbs Blue, reflects Red + Green (Yellow)
    Ball absorbs Blue and Green, reflects Red

    The reflected light from the paper is Red + Green. The ball would absorb the green and reflect Red only. Not orange, which is 2 parts Red 1 part Green. The ball can't reflect green at all(assuming it's Pure, as you said)

    The yellow paper, on the other hand... Well, it can't absorb the red from the ball, so it would reflect it. It's not reflecting red twice, and green once(from the original White Light). The paper would thus have some orange where it reflects the extra light from the ball.

    With the Red Ball Blue Paper.
    The Blue Paper reflects blue, absorbing Red and Green.
    The Red Ball reflects red, absorbing Blue and Green.

    So, the Red would absorb from the Blue, and the Blue from the red, but they wouldn't actually mix. The Pure Red ball can never be anything BUT red.

    Bringing me to Red Ball Red Paper.

    You could never have anything more than pure red on the ball. I think more red light from the paper would simply saturate the ball.

    I -think- the only reason you see white highlights one colored spheres is because you don't see pure red. At least not in nature. Colored plastic, rubbed, metal. They don't absorb ALL red and green, so where the highest concentration of light is(the highlight), it's reflecting enough of all the colors to appear white.


    This is all from a purely Physics POV, with no painting experience. And once you get away from pure colors, it gets more complicated.

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  23. #82
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    @tayete: Welcome to the thread, hope you stick around ! Good results for a first try, the objective of the exercise was just to think about value and how it relates to color. Why you would use a color in a certain area, what color would be appropriate for a shadow area etc etc. Keep it in mind and you'll keep improving. You said you used the desaturate filter, not sure where that is but I think even though it's not perfect you will get more accurate results if you convert to grayscale. Same with the colored blocks, it's there to get you thinking about it, not to show off how perfect you can get it. I'd like to see you try it with a lightsource you think will be a little easier, try something that might hit just one side, or try just one block (and do post it so we can all help you!). In most areas your lightsource seems to be a white light (contains all colors) but on the blue block it seems to be a cool light, making the lightest part a little more blue, the shadows say the object is almost Cyan. The different lightsources object exercise: Your working hard man! Good on ya. On the first one; I'm don't think there would be a dark area on the second part from the top, it should look mostly like your other parts. Unless you planned your lightsource coming from ground level, then there might be a shadow in that area but also on the top cylinder. Ugh, that's rather confusing. Let me know if it needs clarifying. Second one looks pretty good too, I might watch your blending, keep it as a smooth transition (not necessarily a smooth blend) to keep it looking round. Anyways mate, glad to have you in here, keep up the hard work!

    @MattGamer: Sweet dude, glad I could help out. Hope to see some stuff soon.

    @CreationEdge:
    What better way to explain light than through physics? Well... for precision really, not exactly the easiest for everyone to understand. Thanks for taking the time to write all that down, please keep contributing if you feel there is anything else worth saying, your's is a good viewpoint to have in here.

    In reading this I hope I don't come off as defensive, I just want to reason this out; hoping for a little bit of a debate for the purpose of, well ... getting to the bottom of it.

    Your right of course, my chosen verbage of "Pure" was the wrong way to put it. I think it would be almost impossible to have an object that only reflected one wave-length of light right? However I don't think it's correct to think of light as RGB is it? You obviously know more about Physics (I don't know bubkis), but the visual spectrum of light has several discernable hues to it no? I think it's actually a rather large amount right? Our eyes see in RGB though don't they? Does this override that or something?

    Now let's say in a "realistic" situation a Red object absorbs 80 percent of all light other than red light. But next to it is a Yellow object that reflects only yellow light directly onto the red object. The area of the Red Object where this light is reflected would have much more yellow light to deal with, a much higher percentage than before. What if this was in the shadow area, the shadow opposite of the white light containing all the red light? This shadow area would appear yellow wouldn't it? It would be absorbing 20 percent of the yellow light. If we mixed this with some reflected white light into the shadow the extra amount of yellow mixed with the red would mix into like a redish orange no? Is this right? Do my spheres look right to you if they aren't "Pure"?

    Now, hypothetically an absolutely pure red object that reflects only red and absorbs all others wouldn't change at all with a pure yellow light reflected onto it? Sounds right, I guess it wouldn't even have a value change. Reflected light would be ignored entirely, or it would just come back onto the source object making it... no it would then be completely reflected again... after all it's already as pure of a hue as it could get, no notable difference. Wow, the world would be very boring if things were like this.

    Kudos on putting the "white" highlights into words, good stuff.

    Oof, anyways my mind is really stretching here; thanks for the good input, hope you stick around.

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  24. #83
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    Here is my stab at Project 1:


    It was exciting to do this once again and to actually know what I was doing (kinda) because of the previous excersize I did (the warm/cold exersize).
    This was all pretty much done by eye. But when I started with the grey tones it was harder to get the color to have the same tones with it. I think it's much easier in the grey, but what would life be with only grey. It would be like that movie... Pinesville... gosh I forgot the name. But you get my jiff.
    EDIT: I just realized, after changing my desktop color from the 16-bit it was to 32-bit; and found that the color ball is very faded. Gosh, what did I do! Must fix this!

    I didn't know there were more projects to do (ie. sketch the object and shadow it, etc). I only thought there were 4 so far. I can't wait to get started on them all.
    And thank you, Idiot Apathy, for your kindness and warm welcome to the thread. I would love to be in a class taught by you anyday.

    UPDATE: I got a lighter green and re-did a few things here and there to make them look like balls. Haha.



    Last edited by MattGamer; December 7th, 2005 at 02:49 AM.
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    I hope I didn't come off as trying to be anything but helpful. I only used "pure" because you did and it's the easiest to explain and clarify.
    Now let's say in a "realistic" situation a Red object absorbs 80 percent of all light other than red light. But next to it is a Yellow object that reflects only yellow light directly onto the red object. The area of the Red Object where this light is reflected would have much more yellow light to deal with, a much higher percentage than before. What if this was in the shadow area, the shadow opposite of the white light containing all the red light? This shadow area would appear yellow wouldn't it? It would be absorbing 20 percent of the yellow light. If we mixed this with some reflected white light into the shadow the extra amount of yellow mixed with the red would mix into like a redish orange no? Is this right? Do my spheres look right to you if they aren't "Pure"?
    Your real life situation, which is likely what you'll deal with(This is a correction, just me trying to reason things out. Feel free to skim.):

    The "Red", or reddish, object would likely reflect as much green as blue. (Let's just assume that, for this situation). Because they're reflected in the same amount, you'd simply get a lighter reddish ball. You can see this if you open up a color editor, such as in Paint or Photoshop. Set RED to 250, GREEN and BLUE to 0. Note the color. Now, set GREEN and BLUE to 100.

    If you used Paint, did you notice what happened when you changed green first? You made orange. AKA, the HUE changed. But what happened when you changed the blue as well? The HUE returned to 0, the SATURATION decreased, and the LUMINOSITY increased. AKA, it stayed red, but just got brighter and less saturated.

    Back to the ball. Let's assume the objects are the Red Ball Yellow Paper.

    So, we have a white light source, and a red ball on yellow paper. The Red Ball absorbs 80% of light other than red. For simplicity, we'll deal with only Green and Blue. Therefore, it reflects 20% Green, 20% Blue, and 100% Red. The ball appears as a lighter red color.

    However, the ball is receiving reflected light from the paper. The paper reflects 100% Green and 100% Red light(Not-bright Yellow). The ball itself will 80% of that Green and 100% of that red back in places. Those said places would indeed reflect a light orange color(don't forget the 80% Blue from white light). On your colored example I think the color is spot on with what I got.

    As for the yellow paper... Let's talk about the shadow. It wouldn't be black, because there's some ambient light. Even then, it'd be a dark yellow. Now we take the ball into account. It'll reflect in some places what Red light it can, not to mention the Yellow from the paper itself that the Ball reflected(Bouncy light, heh). This would make the shadow a) A little lighter b)Be reflecting more Red than Green. In this situation you wouldn't just get a daker yellow shadow, but more of a goldenrod(almost orange, but more yellow).

    What all my rambling leads up to:

    Your Red Ball on the Yellow Paper would be colored correctly, but your Shadow isn't.

    Red Ball Blue Paper:
    Same red ball as before. Let's say the blue paper reflects 100% blue, but also 20% Red and Green. (Just a lighter blue)

    That light hits the red ball, which absorbs a lot of that blue and some of the green, and none of the red. (Mathematically, the green reflected from the ball would only be a measly 4%)

    So now, in some parts, the ball is reflecting 120% red(100% from source, 20% from paper), 40% Blue(20% from source, 20% from paper), and 24% Green(20% from source, 4% from paper).

    I figure this to be more of a light burgundy, wine color.

    The paper is reflecting in the shadow red from the ball and the light, blue from the light, and green from the light. This time it's more blue than red, so you'd get some sort of indigo, I think.

    So, again, your ball is pretty accurate, but the shadow should be changed.

    I hope no one is daunted by all my wordiness. The process is actually much simpler if you don't explain it, lol.


    Summary:
    When dealing with shadows on objects like this, take into consideration the ambient light, and light that'll be reflected off of nearby objects. (The light from the paper to the ball back to the paper). The source color of light as well as the color of the objects is very important in determining the colors you get when their reflections combine.


    I do suppose that if you keep this in mind, you can figure out the more exact color of an object. Let's say that you're given the Red Ball Yellow Paper, and told nothing else. You see the red ball, orangish reflection, goldenrod shadow, and yellow paper. By working backwards you can figure say "Hey, this ball reflects some blue and green and tons of red, and this paper a lot of yellow." Now, when you introduce a third object of a different color you can more accurately color its shadow and reflections!

    Hope I'm helpful
    -Edge

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  26. #85
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    I'm going to try and get another exercise/experiment up around Saturday, I should have a healthy chuck of time to do it then; Probably something on color.

    Anyone else think they have an exercise, experiment, or just plan notes/lecture/interesting topic; that they would like to contribute? Let me know! Let's flood this thread with some good stuff!

    Oh and everyone please feel free to comment on everyone else's work! I'm feeling a little alone in doing so, remember I'm just one of your peers too dammit!


    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    @MattGamer: Looking good dude, your starting to see how it pays off to think about these things. You'll just keep getting better and better and adding to your repertoire. Your values seemed to turn out pretty good, now I think you should try messing around with intensity. Think about what happens when something recieves more light/less light, what will happen to the intensity? Just as a little guidline, (but please experiment, you'll understand it much better!), usually as an object recieves more light it will become more intense, (This is very general and it's more complicated than that) less light less intense. Try mixing this in with your next spheres and see how you do with value matching. I'll put a link to all the projects on the front page so no-one else misses them, thanks. Oh and, if I taught a class even I would ask for my money back. I'm just passing on what little I know, hopefully we can get some more people in on this and they can spread some of what they know around. Peace.

    @CreationEdge: No no, you came off as helpful. Thanks. When I did this I didn't think very much light if any would be reflected off the shadow side of the sphere into the paper, I wasn't really thinking of the reflected light properly. I also didn't think any light coming off of the shadow side would affect it very much, I was very wrong! Good stuff man, It's great to talk about these kind of things, it's too hard to completely flesh it out in your own head. Gunna use this knowledge now.

    It's a bit hard/odd for me to think of light in just Red Green and Blue. I think in a more Artist fashion I think of light in a complete color wheel. Even though the visual spectrum is quite as broad as a color wheel (I think...); a color wheel can still serve the purpose of representing all the colors we usually see. If you go in a straight line straight across the color wheel say from yellow to red, the middle of the line will land in orange, the line will also give you an indication of the intensity as well. For example take a complimentary colors, say Orange and Blue. Draw a line straight across to each other and you will get nothing but gray, no hue change. The closer to the middle the closer it will be to gray, the value of gray is determined by the values of the two original colors. This won't work with the traditional color wheel though, it's off. I think however the "modern" color wheel works perfectly. I know photoshops or painters does. I think I'll type this up with pictures and post it as a example. Anyways, for me it's a lot easier to compute the color visually rather than mathematically with RGB values, but we all work differently huh?

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  27. #86
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    Well, I'm sure your way is much easier! I confuse myself sometimes the other way, but I've not had any color theory at all, so all I have to go on is what I do know, and that's Light from my Advanced Physics class last year.

    There was another topic where someone and I got into a discussion about it. He brought up a good point about light. Not all light sources are white light, and not all of those colored ones. You have to remember, though, that colored light sources are either A) Combinations of RGB or B) A color from the visible spectrum. That is, if you have a magenta or cyan light, your light is a combination of RB and GB respectively, because magenta and cyan don't exist in the visible light spectrum.


    I got Painter IX a couple days ago. Its color mixer looks like it'll be fun to play around with. I only wish I had a Wacom

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  28. #87
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    Let me ask you something then, what colors exactly are in the visual spectrum; actually exist in a pure state and aren't mixes of other colors? Surely it isn't just RGB right? Is it truely the colors of the rainbow?

    Hmm, I wish they had something like a physics for artists; sometimes art could use more science and less "guidelines" I think.

    If your serious about art; well digital art at least, or just as a fun hobby, you should get a tablet. A Graphire4 should run you around $90 or so as a student.

    Edit: Here is a good link that explains much of my confusion...
    http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc...0/phy00871.htm

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 7th, 2005 at 10:23 PM.
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  29. #88
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    That type of tablet is only 90$? Do you know where online I could get that, or what store would surely carry it(Best Buy?)? If it's only 90$ I might be able to get it for X-mas(As opposed to the 350$ Intuos3 which I'll have to buy myself when I get a job)

    I'm definitely serious about art. I really want a friggen tablet so I can use Painter to its full advantage.

    Back to your question:

    Yes, the colors of the rainbow are the colors of the visible light spectrum.

    Here's an image I nabbed from NASA that shows the complete VLS.



    If that doesn't work for some reason, the link is http://wfc3.gsfc.nasa.gov/MARCONI/im...c/spectrum.jpg (I did a google image search of "visible light spectrum")

    BTW, that link is VERY good. Whoever that is explains it all much more concisely than I could. It explains a little test I did one day in Art:

    In Light, Red + Green = Yellow. Those are the actual primary colors. But not in art.

    So I got out some Red paint and some Green paint. I mixed the two together and got... DARK BROWN.

    The Red Paint absorbs Blue and Green. The Green Paint absorbs Red and Blue. Mix the two together, and you now have a color which absorbs ALL 3 colors, and thus appears blackish.


    It's a good point to make. The way you figure out what colors to use is very different from how you actual mix the colors with paint.

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  30. #89
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    Not sure where you live but yeah most big electronic's stores should have them, probably for around $100. I might try http://www.pricewatch.com/ though, I think you'll find some good deals as well as some student discount stores. I have a graphire2 from a few years ago and have gotten great use out of it (time to upgrade though I think). Graphire is made by Wacom, same as the Intuos, so it's a good piece of hardware.

    Thanks for the link, I couldn't find any visual spectrum charts with the names. However... in the chart I clearly see oranges and yellow greens etc. Is it possible to have a color not named in the chart every bit as intense as one that is named? It would be a mix so that would leave me to believe it would turn out to be a tint of a color, like you had added a little bit of white.

    That's a good story about mixing Red with Green, the traditional color wheel would say that these colors are complements so they should end up as a perfect gray (given that the paint pigments were pure). However the modern color wheel or what PS or Painter would rely on, Red's compliment is actually Cyan. Using a color wheel drawing a line from Red to Green on the M. Color wheel you'd be surprised to see that the color you made (if it was 50% red and 50% green of the same value/intensity) was actually a yellow! Very cool stuff, amazing how math creeps into everything.

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    tayete: Nice work on the jar project. Though it does look like you went very quick on the first one. The proportion of the jars do seem a bit wacked... maybe they could be done again, but smaller? I find that if I don't have to make HUGE paint strokes and when I can see the whole image at one time; it's easier to get the right look.

    Idiot Apathy: I have a Wacom Graphire 2 too! I need to upgrade so badly, but I can never keep the $350+ that I need to get it. Even on Pricewatch and Newegg.com they're expensive. Though I cannot wait to get an Intuos 3 and to use the pen as a shader and all the other phat features it has. Gosh, way back when I got my Graphire for $99 off of Pricewatch. Now that much can buy a Graphire 4! Wow.

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