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  1. #131
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    Thank you guys so much.
    I've beenout of town.. and now i'm only home for few minutes before leaveing again and i don;t want to pass by without a small reply.
    I will study more art-math and see about light... and i'll never be easier on myself, since i don;t have the time to take it easy. I'm an old fart.
    Great new exrcise - yet - i will redo the cubes first

    Venomai - try to use a wider range of values and make sure your sphere is... round
    I took the liberty of painting on top on yours in few secs just to try to make a small example. My spheres are still not as good as i want them.. but hopefully they make the point.
    I know it is not the target of the excercise to have perfect spheres on the values but i got frustrated when i cound;nt made mine look round enough.

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  3. #132
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    @Bumskee: Thanks for your encouragement and enthusiasm man! New spheres look great, very vibrant. Do you think you could explain a little about the cool reflected light you have near the middle of the sphere? It looks right; I just want to know why. Don't worry about matching perfectly, this exercise is flawed in that it's not really possible to get a perfect grayscale and it's especially hard when you put strong intensities into the mix. Your right about needing a background, right now they are cut-outs put onto a gray background, I think that might be messing with some people. Can't wait to see the boxes, try a very simple light direction if the shadows are giving you a hard time, baby steps man baby steps.

    @Venomai: You made it! Sweet, welcome to the thread. Neat texture on the spheres, an angled brush? Anyways, spheres look good and you matched pretty well, I might add some reflected light in the shadows to add some realism or a larger value range like Oblio suggested but again, not the point of the exercise but it helps ya know?

    @Oblio: 29 is old?! Oh man, there are things I wanted to do in life... didn't think that I'd be old at 29... Anyways your determination is really inspiring, for an old fart; can't wait to see your cubes again.
    - - - - - - - - - - -

    Did another one after I woke up this morning; spent a lot less time on it (and it shows...) but still practice makes perfect!

    Link again so not to spoil it for those who don't wanna see yet:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...eleven_004.jpg

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  4. #133
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    hey Idiot apathy, the little thing in the middle? no idea, thought it would look right since it's a sphere, one thing I noticed most of the spheres here look more closely to a beveled round button, including mine. hehe, yeah damn these spheres are hard. And you know what I did have a go at the box yesterday for about 2 hrs. :| and I could not for the life of me figure out the damn shadows.. was driving me mental!! and how the hell do you and romance get such clean edges?? god I thought I had photoshop pretty under control but it was all over the place. I was just about to have another crack at.. made me realise how much of the basics I was missing.. damn..I might have to remove a block or two for the moment..

    nice ball, damn those colours are really hitting it. Good to see you leading the way mate, hope I get there one day.!! back to the annoying boxes...

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  5. #134
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    Aww damn, your embarassing me , "Hope I get there one day", it won't take that long mate, now if I could just draw like you .

    I got clean edges by going over the black lines lines at the end (I used a multiply layer for my lay-in) with a 100% opaque mostly hard edged brush set to straight lines only, second one I think I actually touched up in photoshop using the click shift click method.

    Post or PM/Email me what you got so far and I'll see if I can help but shadows really frustrate me too!

    Feel free to nuke a box if you want, even go so far to make your own boxes. It might be easier to construct a full on 2pp enviroment and then map out your shadows, here is a really hard to understand (I still can't even bear to read it) but awesome resource: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/perspect6.html#type5 lol, let me know if you decode it. Oh and make sure and post your results!

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  6. #135
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    Baubles

    bRØk3n_sPiRiT:
    Project two look good, I'm not seeing much bounce light though. Also your planes are a little to flat; In most lighting situations one area of a plane is more lit and further away get dimmer. One neat thing you caught was the higher saturation on the inside corner of the pink block. The pink light bouncing off the lit face would make part of the shadow more colorful (but still dark). One problem though is that your block is not self shadowing. Here is a quick markup showing the missing shadow:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    The latest exercise was fun and challeging. I actually did it twice since I need the practice anyway. Here is the first ref I used:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    I actually just used the thumbnail for ref. Color was the point, not details.

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    This one turned out okay. The long shadow got really lumpy because I went over it about a dozen times. It is both a shadow and lit, and has a buch of hue shifts caused by things outside our field of view. I also had trouble getting that hot orange band in the middle to look right.

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    After I got done I scribbled over the paint figuring out the lighting situation. This scene has two primary light sources, and two shadows. It also has a nice example of that wide band of identifying color. The shadows picked up a lot of the balls color, maybe the lights had a slight orange/yellow tint?

    Here is the second one I did. I chose one of the more complex ref photos:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    I think this image was intentionally over exposed, so the colors are extra saturated and the whites are all blown out.

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    I had trouble with everything on this one. The final image stands up well on its own, but isn't very close to the referance. I had a lot of problems getting the colors and saturation right, both on the glass and on the floor. In the end I didn't succeed, the photo's colors are a lot hotter than mine. BTW glass is hard...

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    This image is interesting because the shadow does not line up with the apparent light source. The highlights are a little right of the nearest side, but the shadow is cast to the near left. It seems there was a much stronger, but distant, back light in the scene. There were a ton of interesting light/color effects caused by the glass. The object is translucent and back lit, so it looks like it is glowing from within. Also the back light casts caustics into the shadow. The surface is somewhat reflective, but warped.

    I painted these at four times the width/height shown. Using a larger image size helped with these I think. I also tried to keep in mind all the advice I've gotten here recently. Using a brush with a softer edge helped round these out a little more, but also tended to fuzz out the details I was trying to add.

    I guess I'm going to work backwards through these for a while. Warm/cool painting is next!

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  7. #136
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    @Kitsu: I thought a plane was flat by definition? Hehe, I see what you mean though but still don't quite understand why, do you know? I found some good examples of this here: http://www.korthalsaltes.com/index.html on the paper models (click the links in the link). But I'm still not sure why, perhaps it is only with artifical lighting? Due to the curved surface of the bulbs? Would the same effect be true with sunlight? Good call on the "self-shadowing", I missed that! On pink light onto pink light, don't forget that besides adding intensity your adding light so the value should go up too (probably less in relation to intensity though). On the Color Matching: Orange Ping pong ball - Awesome! It's great to finally see someone elses. It reads very well and I recognized it instantly, I was actually thinking about doing this one because (well besides how much I like orange) of the interesting lighting situation. Now I'm going to get nit-picky just to keep you thinking , If you had wanted to you could have actually gone 100% intensity on the "intensity band"; The reflected light on the core shadow is a little exaggerated and sharp, you might try blending that a little more or perhaps on a seperate layer if your using PS; the long mostly warm cast shadow could use a little more intensity. Crazy that you used the thumbnail as the ref; your missing out on some important lighting details; the highlights on the ball jump to almost a yellow white in small spots like an orange almost; the stronger cast shadow actually turns to a violet on the edges where it increases in value. Sorry for being nit-picky, you've really done a great job! Why don't you do your lighting situation scribble on the photo ref before you start, it might be helpful. Try and identify what color the lighting is as well. On the second color matching: Red Measuring Cup - Again dude, awesome! It still reads well but like you said it's a bit different than the ref. Your folly was really just: not going saturated enough on a few parts, going just a little too dark on the "shadow" parts, and being a little afraid to go to white on some of the highlights and reflected parts. Some of which are a little harder to see on the thumbnail. I too painted from a smaller thumbnail but had a large image ready to examine to get a better feel from it. The shadow that you see isn't a shadow, think of the glass as a photo filter over a light, the red shadow is just filtered light. Anyways kudos to you, glass is hard but try and think of it as just different shapes and different edges in order to simplify it. Can't wait to see your warm/cool!

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  8. #137
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    Thanks! Tons of useful information again. Here is a blurb about light intensity changing across a surface:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    If you count the number of rays hitting at each edge you can see why the furthest is darker. If you want to get technical it is because of the inverse square law, which applies to all field effects (like gravity or waves in water): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law
    Basically as you get further from the light the photons get further apart, so the surface is less lit. The suns rays are nearly parallel so it's intensity shouldn't change on regular sized objects. but radiosity has an impact too, especially in sun light, so less obstructed (higher) areas will get more light.

    Yesterday I took some time trying to figure out shadows. The titanic page of info you found is actually really useful! You just need to follow along on paper and it makes a lot more sense. Maybe I'll try to post a simplified explanation of basic shadow casting after I finish the next exercise.

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  9. #138
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    So then it seems to me this would be more apparent with artifical lighting right? Especially since the light comes fairly spread out? Anyways, thanks for taking the time; this thread could use more stuff like this, and do let us know what you find out about shadows!

    Where are the rest of you slackers?

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  10. #139
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    Thumbs down ...

    Yeah, it got quiet in here again...

    I finished project five, I think I need to try it again though. Here is my ref:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    And here is the paint. I don't have access to my usual posting comp so I'm posting this from my dad's computer. I think this image might need some contrast correction, but this monitor is so out of wack that I can't tell. Hopefully this doesn't look as bad elsewhere as it does here.
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    And steps:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    First problem is I kinda mangled the camera angle. I don't mind but it seems when I draw things I always shift the point of view a little. Also I didn't push the saturation anywhere noticable. It would be great if someone could do a paint over on this because I really don't know where I could go saturation wise. I think I learned something from doing this one, but I don't think I can explain exactly what it was...

    Okay, I'm going to try to make a shadow demo. Then I'll probably do this exercise again with a different ref. I'm offline until Tuesday, but I'll try to respond to anyone who posts when I get back.

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  11. #140
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    Everyone: Slackers! Where the hell are ya? Tell me what's up, if theres a problem I need to know! Could it be that people just pass by stickies like I always imagined?

    @Kitsu: Really cool ref and really great results. I'm glad you learned something and I know how it is not being able to describe it. I did a quick and sloppy paint-over to show you what you might have done a little differently:
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ok27/kitsu.jpg
    I think you made it a little harder on yourself by having blue water and a blue sky so prominent in your picture; they sucked up all the blues! Yet you did a fantastic job of spreading your orange around. You might have liked to use some blues in your shadows, blue helps things feel a little darker and cooler but it will also help them feel further away when used properly (think our own atmosphere, anything really far away). One of the main things you could have tweaked was the value of the bridge as well as the sky. You might plan your values in the beginning to get a better feel for it; try accurately marking out your brightest and darkest colors and go from there. Intensity/saturation is tricky in that it can describe how near (high intensity) or how far (low intensity) something is but you should also pay attention to how intense things are in your reference. The sky for example is pretty intense, the sky is actually a lightsource! In the future I might try a higher opacity brush until your finished blocking most areas in, it might help with getting the proper color you want as well as other things. Glad you've stuck around unlike these other bums, see you on tuesday! Edit: Oh and a shadow demo sounds awesome, thanks!

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 21st, 2005 at 08:49 PM.
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  12. #141
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    Project #7: Value

    More and more I'm believing that value is the most important element in what we do, notice that's its and element and doesn't stand on its own however. I don't think it is always the most important however I think in many styles it very well may be. This Project is set up to get us to start seeing value better and quicker. You will generalize areas with a very limited value range, I believe it better to block in your general forms first and then split them up into the details later. If you do this with the proper value it should flow very easily. Later I think we will do this with color.

    - - - - - - - - - -
    The Guidelines:
    A: Do the project and create a dialogue of what you did and why. (Try and think about this while you do the project, this is important; we will be better able to learn from each other as well as catch each other's mistakes.)
    B: The Dialogue will be analyzed by your peers; (Right or wrong, the idea is to have a reason why and explain it. I think this will be key )
    C: And of course at the same time peer critiques will be offered. (Pretty simple no?)
    D: You shouldn't have to spend a large amount of time on this however spend as much time as you need, give it your best.
    E. All Projects/Exercises are of course optional, have no order, and are always open to participation. Start wherever and whenever you want!
    F. People who are too embarassed to post their results will be shot on sight, you're here to learn not to show off.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I strongly recommend you read the discussions and analyses within others posts that are between exercises. I see a lot of the same advice being repeated. Read through this for your sake; I mean don't you want to learn faster?

    This being said, sometimes advice or critiques will be given that may be incorrect, or misconceptions; I most likely am not innocent of this either. If you spot mistakes be sure and correct them! Don't confuse these with opinions however, which are never wrong only different.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Step One: Choose a photo. Below are some good links to public domain photo sites as well as some pictures I thought might work well for this. Feel free to choose or use your own photo's but I think for this project it will be best to stick with simple architecture, indoors or outdoors. You don't want anything with lots of blends or deep perspective (will cause blending too!). The point of this exercise is not a perfect dupilicate of a photograph; the point is begin to divide values properly. No B&W photo's you cheater!

    Step Two: I know it sounds horrible but your going to do this directly off the photo; it will take too long otherwise. Get the high res version of your photo set up in PS or another Image editor (Painter might not be the best choice for this one). You are going to use as few values as possible to describe this photo, do stick to under 10 if you can help it. What values you choose are up to you, remember no intensity! Using the polygonal lasso or whatever you feel is best select areas that you feel are the same value. Generalize everything! No extremely small areas and no details! If it's really close in value then make it the same value! Fill this area with your value; do it on a seperate layer so you don't mess up your photo. I recommend starting with your brightest and darkest values, not necessarily white and black mind you! Do not convert to grayscale and do not color pick, this is to come from your eyes only!

    Step Three: Rinse and repeat until you are finished. Does the image still retain it's identity? If not go back and edit, add more values if necessary, create smaller shapes in different (but proper!) values to distinguish shapes.

    Presentation: Try and keep your image size below 800x600 so everyone can see it, feel free to work as big as your computer will comfortably allow but do resize it when finished, odds are it will look better when it is shrunk down anyways. Link or have a thumbnail to your reference as well please, do not hotlink either, that's just plain mean.

    Public Domain Photo Links:
    http://www.imageafter.com/
    http://www.morguefile.com/
    http://www.sxc.hu/

    Some Images: (Click for Link to High Res!)
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    (Sorry feeling lazy ...)

    - - - - - - - - - -
    Any comments, suggestions, corrections etc. greatly appreciated!

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; January 7th, 2006 at 06:54 PM.
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  13. #142
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    To give you an idea of just how simple it can be and just how much time you should spend I did this one real quick:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

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  14. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiot Apathy
    @Jubilee: Cool to see you in here too . While reading what's in here take it with a grain of salt, not all of it may be true! Some of it is just a thought process. Your spheres came out really close, kudos! On your highlight you might want to try to keep the different sections in the middle of each other, erm think like a bullseye? Right now it looks a bit like your sphere has a bulge at the highlight. Keep posting! I'll take it as a personal insult if you don't .
    eek the pressure! bleah i'm falling even further behind I swear I'll be back on this directly after the holidays

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