!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast ! - Page 4
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Thread: !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

  1. #91
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    If it's not named on the visible spectrum, that just means there's not a wavelength of that light, and we see it in a combination. Magenta, I think I've said... The only way it exists is in the human eye, triggered by Receiving Red and Blue wavelengths of light.

    Also, don't rely on Photoshop for correct color combinations. It will only give you the correct combinations for LIGHT, but not for the paints themselves. Painter, on the other hand, is made to simulate paint, and from what I've experimented with it will accurately reproduce paint.


    Oh, the red and green paint I used was some really cheap finger-paint quality stuff, and I have no idea if I mixed equal amounts. The bottles were labeled Red and Green, though, lol.


    Back to the Wacom since we're talking about it. I heard that if you're serious about it you should get a 6x8, but those are still nearly $200 to over $200. Over twice as much as what you said, but of course 6x8 is over 2 times the size of 4x5.

    I've drawn out both sizes on a piece of paper, and I don't think a 4x5 will do it for me.

    Is there another brand that's not WACOM but still reliable?

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  2. #92
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    Rules are hard

    I must have gone right past this thread five or six times the last few days. I think this would be more visable/appealing if it had its own sub-forum under comunity activities.

    Anyway I've found it now and I think it is a great idea! I think I have a decent understanding of light/color, but the knowledge of a thing and putting that knowledge into practice are two very different questions.



    I did these in Photoshop in about a half an hour. The first thing I did was decide on my light location and the local color of my spheres*. Then I started by filling the circle with the local color. For the entire exersise I used a chalk brush with pressure set to opacity, and tried to keep the brush size uncomfortably large.

    I kind of defeated the exercise by the way I chose my values. Instead of using a complete value range as instructed I used mainly four values with some overlap for smoothing. I also tried to keep a wide band around the spheres close to my local color. I did this to perserve the color identity of my spheres (see the Prom tut). These are useful techniques for painting without referance, but it also simplified the problem of matching values (the point of the exercise).

    The color version was the same as the grey except I pulled the hue slider closer to blue for the shadows, and closer to yellow for the highlight. Also I did something I came up with while researching some painting by my favorite digital artists: I made the shadows more saturated and the highlights less. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but I noticed the pattern while color sampling across paintings I liked. Shadows regardless of hue were more saturated and highlights were less. With the highlights it makes some sense, you're adding white so you will lose some color, but why would the shadows get more saturated?

    For the conversion I used Photoshop's mode->greyscale, and the results are moderately close. The contrast is better on the color version while the greyscale's values are kind of muddy. Looks like if I did a quick wash of my base color at ~10% opacity I could knock the color version down to the same level as the grey.

    *Local color:
    I know this concept from working in 3d, but Prometheus's tutorial gives a very good explanation of what it means for painting. Basically local color is the color an object would be in a perfectly neutral lighting condition, with no specular or shadow. In the real world objects are colored by light and shadow and by the color of the light sources nearby (bounce light). When painting from life this isn't really important, our brains automaticaly attach a color label to things we look at. So white paper looks white regardless of the lighting conditions and a red apple seems just as red on the shadow side as on the lit. When working without referance though it is important to keep in mind what color a thing should be. Check out the part about color identity in Prometheus's tut

    So thats what I've come up with so far. I'm going to move on to the next exercise tonight but I will probably come back and do this one again when I have time.

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  3. #93
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    Talking More pictures less talk

    Exercise 2:

    The first problem I had was figuring out the cast shadows. I tried for a while to remember how to correctly project shadows but I wasn't even getting close. After a while I got frustrated with that so I just built a quick model of the scene to see how the shadows should fall:


    I'm not worried about cheating since cast shadows wern't the point of the exercise, but I guess I'll need to review cast shadows again. I know one of the Loomis books has a good treatment of perspective and shadows but if anyone knows a good tutorial?

    Next I added light and shadows. My key light was pale yellow and my fill was a dim blueish ambient light (this setup is a rough approximation of outdoor lighting). In this situation I think the key should add some white to the color of the objects and make the yellow component of colors more saturated right? So my green block would get shifted toward a yellow-green where lit and my orange would get brighter. I'm not sure what would happen to the blue block though, should it get greener, or should it get greyer? In paint blue and yellow are primaries, but in light they are complimentary so I guess it should lose saturation? This stuff is hard to explain so I kept some merged copies of my progress:


    I only did one odd thing with these that might need more explaination. Once I had the basic lighting done I went back and darkened the inside corners and brightend the outside edge. I tried to make a little diagram to show the reasoning behind this. Basically more light bounces away when approaching an inside corner so it will get darker (radiosity shadow), while light can hit an outside edge from more directions so it will look brighter. The effect is a little to exagerated but it still works okay.



    This one was fun and a little bit complicated. I really did try to think about how the colors would change across the lit and unlit surfaces as I did this. In the end though I just used a low opacity wash over the surfaces, color picked, and did minor hue/saturation shifts. The finish painting is a little too rough for this size but I guess the lighting looks okay. The next exercise looks like a lot of fun, I'll see if I can get it done this weekend.

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  4. #94
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    Kitsu: I really like the box idea of rendering a model to check the shadows. Why didn't I think of that?! Hah!
    It looks like you got the boxed idea down, though it does look "a little to rough for this size". As for the balls, they look good though the left side seems too dark. When I looked at your green color ball, I squinted my eyes to see if it would stand out from the monitor screen. What it did instead was rise where it was light and where it was dark green/black it just went into the screen. Almost like it was a piece of clay where I used my finger to push in where the blackness is (if you can understand that; brilliant!). My advice (though not professional by all means) would be to lighten the darkest areas a few notches up. Then the ball(s) will look more blended and won't have a deformity to them. Keep up the sweet work! Can't wait to see your next project submittion.

    CreationEdge: There actually is no other tablet brand that you could go with that will give you everything that Wacom tablets have to offer. Other brands occationally have pens that you have to replace the battery every week or so, whereas Wacom tablet pens have no need for batteries for eternity. And this is only one of many bonus' you get by getting Wacom over the other brand. Not to mention that Wacom is totally reliable and built to last for your entire art career, life, etc.

    If you're going to spend a measly $200, I would rather spend it on a Wacom than anything else. Also, 4x5 is good enough for any artist getting into the digital painting scene. I've been using my 4x5 for 3 years and find it quite comfortable on my lap while drawing, instead of this huge 12x12 tablet that wouldn't even fit on my desk let alone my lap. Haha. I also love to take my 4x5 Graphire in my backpack with me to my college campus and hook it up to their computers (they have Photoshop 7; and I have the Wacom driver in my email so I can install it anywhere with Internet connection) and paint things there when I have the time.

    If I were in your shoes, I'd save my money until it reached $350 and buy a Wacom Intuos 3. This is actually what I am saving for and hope to be able to buy it by Summer 2006.
    You don't have the money, you may say. But think about all those times you spend your money without thinking (fast food, candy, soda, etc). Drink water instead of soda for a week and see how much you save. Or if you dont drink soda, and your a mineral water lover, skip on the mineral water and buy a cheap filter for your tap water and drink that water instead. There are so many ways you could save money each month to reach your goal of a Wacom.

    I hope this helps a little, or a lot.

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  5. #95
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    Actually... I have about 40 dollars, + 13 my bro owes me. I don't have a job yet, so I really don't have any other source of income. I actually really need to get a job(save up for college), but I've got tons of excuses not to, >_>

    If there's no Budget Wacoms available, looks like I am going to have to save. I don't mind, I guess. Once I get a job practically all the money that I don't immediately put away is going to art supplies and the like,

    Thanks anyway!

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  6. #96
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    I lied, ran out of time today; should have an exercise up tomorrow though. Thinking it will be a some simple shapes in different brightly colored enviroment focusing on the shadows and reflected light again. Lot's of reflected light. Let me know if you have any ideas and or suggestions, maybe there is something else you want to work on?
    - - - - - - -

    @CreationEdge: I dunno, both painter and PS seem to come up with the same mixes, Painters just seem more realistic because of the simulations it does perhaps? I'm not sure PS would be a mixture for light either, it should get brighter instead of darker when colors are mixed right? It still seems like subtractive color theory. I dunno, I'm a painter guy anyways. Definietly save up and get a tablet, don't go budget, but I don't know if you should go Intuos either. I think in all likelyhood you'll be satisfied with a graphire for awhile, or at least long enough until you have the money for an intuos.
    @Kitsu: Haha! It's own section under the community activities... I wish it was big enough to deserve that kind of exposure. Perhaps I should try and get it sticked? or maybe moved into say Sketches and WIPs'? Anyways: Good idea to keep the brush large, it will help with some bad habits and eventually really speed you up. I'd caution always having your highlights yellowish and shadows blueish, this would mean your lightsource is yellow and the ambient or enviromental light blue. Outside the light is usually white, meaning it has all colors of equal amounts, and lots of it! The blue in shadows is caused predominatly by the reflected light from our blue sky. So, figure out the color of your lightsource and the ambient lighting and go from there. Good job on the spheres, you may have "bent" the rules but you got the purpose down. I might try keeping a really high opacity for the roughing in stages and then going lower to blend however, you might like how this looks better, or not . Exercise 2: hahaha! Awesome, I wish I could have made a model too, I really need to work on my shadows. Do be careful though, I don't think 3d software has all the answers. Oh and it's not cheating, it's research! On your lightsource, I have to disagree with outdoor lighting as being a pale yellow. True the sun appears yellow at times, not sure why; I've heard it's because our eyes are more sensitive to yellow or something, it's also definetly orange or red at sunsets/dawn. However the sun's light is actually all colors, white, like I said before. It will make every color more intense when it hits it, as well as higher in value. Now you could have a pale yellow lightsource but usually I think it would still be a white light with extra yellow. So things should still be fairly vibrant/intense? I'm not sure what you mean about adding white to make the yellow component of colors more saturated though. White has no saturation/intensity. I think your right with the green block, good reasoning there. The blue block your thoughts were right too, yellow and blue are complements so they should cancel each other out to gray eventually. I'm not quite sure on your brown block though, because it's local color is pretty close to yellow it shouldn't loose much if any (perhaps it would gain?) in intensity at all where it hits the light. Oof, hope this doesn't sound like I'm picking on you; you've actually done a great job. I really like the shadows and the textures. Thanks for the part on the edges and corners; I'll be using that. I think you might enjoy working with a little more intense colors next time, try starting with more intense local colors or a white lightsource that will make everything else more intense. These are good things to think about, you can really have great control over your composition if you practice these things.

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  7. #97
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    Idiot: You're right. I don't remember what I was thinking of at the moment in PS. It might've just been the color wheel. I'm not sure. My bad >_<

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    Idiot Apathy, cheers for running this, perfect thing I was looking for!! something I really wanted to study. I will participate soonish. This is an awsome thread. Gotta do some careful readings.

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  9. #99
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    Project #5:
    Warm and Cool Colors with Aerial Perspective Etc.


    All too often colors selected for the foreground or background just do not fit in, they can throw the entire picture off. This exercise is meant to get you thinking about what colors are suitable for what situation. It will be limited to keep it simple and to keep you on the right track.

    - - - - - - - - - -
    The Guidelines:
    A: Do the project and create a dialogue of what you did and why. (Try and think about this while you do the project, this is important; we will be better able to learn from each other as well as catch each other's mistakes.)
    B: The Dialogue will be analysed by your peers; (Right or wrong, the idea is to have a reason why and explain it. I think this will be key )
    C: And of course at the same time peer critiques will be offered. (Pretty simple no?)
    D: You shouldn't have to spend a large amount of time on this however spend as much time as you need, give it your best.
    E. All Projects/Exercises are of course optional, have no order, and are always open to participation. Start wherever and whenever you want!
    F. People who are too embarassed to post their results will be shot on sight, you're here to learn not to show off.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I strongly recommend you read the discussions and analyses within others posts that are between exercises. I see a lot of the same advice being repeated. Read through this for your sake; I mean don't you want to learn faster?

    This being said, sometimes advice or critiques will be given that may be incorrect, or misconceptions; I most likely am not innocent of this either. If you spot mistakes be sure and correct them! Don't confuse these with opinions however, which are never wrong only different.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Edit: If you haven't started this yet I might do Project#7 First, might help you out on this one.

    For this project you will select a photograph from a public domain photography site (see links below!). You are specifically looking for something that has a lot of depth but will also be fairly simple to re-create. You will have the choice of two colors to recreate this photograph. One should be a warm color the other should be a cool color, do try and keep these as complementary as possible to avoid hue shifts in the blended areas (or just don't blend!). I recommend maybe Orange and Blue, perhaps closer to Blue-Cyan.

    Step One:
    Pick a picture; there are several links below to explore, each website is public domain as well. At the bottom of this page I have quickly picked a few that might be simple as well as pretty good for this project. Make sure you click for the High Res in these sites!

    Public Domain Photo Links:
    http://www.imageafter.com/
    http://www.morguefile.com/
    http://www.sxc.hu/

    Step Two: Set up your workspace however is best for you, your going to be copying from a photograph here. You might try having just a small thumbnail on your canvas or if your lucky enough to have a dual monitor setup that's great.

    Step Three: You are going to be use only two colors for this entire project, your warm color and your cool color. You can not vary your hue at all from these however you can and should vary your values and intensities. If you have complementary colors you might find that they mix quite nicely into neutral greys. As you paint think about what parts of the photograph should have higher or lower values; what parts should have higher or lower intensity? Ask yourself does this look right here? Is the picture cohesive as a whole? Keep your brushstrokes uncomfortably large as long as you can!

    Presentation: Try and keep your image size below 800x600 so everyone can see it, feel free to work as big as your computer will comfortably allow but do resize it when finished, odds are it will look better when it is shrunk down anyways. Link or have a thumbnail to your reference as well please, do not hotlink either, that's just plain mean.

    I'm going to wait a few days to post my results until you have all had a chance. Want you to have a clean slate to work with

    Some images: (Click for Link to High Res!)

    - - - - - - - - - -
    Any comments, suggestions, corrections etc. greatly appreciated!

    If there is anyone that thinks they could set up a project/experiment or a little lecture or some notes let me know, I'd, We'd really appreciate it!


    Edit:
    Ok, looks like I didn't make myself very clear; sorry 'bout that. I'm trying to set these exercises up very simplistically to A. keep the time needed to participate/redo/learn short and B. To clear away things that might bog you down or confuse you. I think it's better to learn things in small steps, building a foundation and then building upon that foundation with the things you learned along the way. Also it's easier to learn a specific thing if you can focus solely on that.

    This exercise was set up in mind to clear out all the hard thinking and correcting involved in color picking. You should focus on making things the proper value and intensity for not only how they look but to re-inforce their distance, closer or further away from the viewer. (Go ahead and exaggerate these effects, in fact, you should exaggerate it!). Think about what will happen to your warm color as it disappears into the distance and what will happen to it when it's in your face, what will happen to your cool color? Remember you should vary both value and intensity but NOT hue. Your colors should be complementary so that you can mix them without changing hues, this way it will look cleaner, proceed faster, and allow you to use the eyedropper. You might try using your cool color for shadows and warm for sunlight, I believe our mind naturally responds this way. (do keep in mind this isn't always the case!)

    To pick perfect complements you can either arbitrarily pick your first color and invert it to get your complement or go an exact 180 degrees opposite of the hue slider.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; January 7th, 2006 at 06:54 PM.
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  10. #100
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    ~Ooo cool, Bumskee's in here too!~ You have a great sketchbook and I've been real fond of the Digital Painting in PS thread too. Great to have you in here !

    I've updated the guidelines a little bit and added the projects to the front page to make it easier.

    Anyone have any idea's for the next project?

    Anyone think they have anything they could contribute?

    Edit: Just remembered I forgot to address this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsu
    Also I did something I came up with while researching some painting by my favorite digital artists: I made the shadows more saturated and the highlights less. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but I noticed the pattern while color sampling across paintings I liked. Shadows regardless of hue were more saturated and highlights were less. With the highlights it makes some sense, you're adding white so you will lose some color, but why would the shadows get more saturated?
    Shadows could be more intense if you were say in a blue enviroment with a warm lightsource on a blue object. The light spots on the object would be receiving competeing colors in light, from the ambient blue enviroment light and the warm lightsource. On top of that the object's local color is blue so it would already be pretty pale. Now the shadow part is mostly receiving only the blue reflected light so it would be fairly intense.

    I suppose there are other different situations that shadows could be more intense than the rest of the object but it seems like stylized color to me. Nothing wrong with that, in fact I love stylized color. I think outdoors usually the midpoint will be the most saturated. Indoors is another story, lots of different lightsources.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 11th, 2005 at 09:56 PM.
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  11. #101
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    Idiot Apathy, you are too nice dude. I linked this thread to the digital painting thread, this is the missing info there! coz I am too much a newbie to help anyone with these stuff. As you will see shortly, hehe. But good on you for doing this, cheers mate.

    So i tackled the first exercise.. Hope you guys don't mind, I will catch up quick. please excuse my jaggy edges.. and I know I am very weak with colours and values.. But I had NO idea I was off by this much.. I went with my animal instinct but painted the coloured version very dark.. as below.. yeah.. BUT I vaguely remember reading about difference in intensity, like with blue and yellow of same value, yellow will have to be significantly darker in value to match intensity of the blue. Maybe I am not using the right term, I think I read a bit about it in the colour theory book I have.. *covered in dust by the way..* better do some reading on it. But yeah I am off by miles





    So I went again..and I think the zaggy edges are little less this time.. a little closer but this time a little lighter! sweet my eyes must be crooked..





    As for suggestions, using complimentary colours only to paint something? is that too big? I remember seeing such exercise being held over at wetcanvas.com. Would be good to do some studies involving different surfaces. eeek

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  12. #102
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    I've been reading this thread for awhile now. I confess wrapping my brain around some of it will take time.

    I thought I'd finally take a stab at the first exercise. Pushing the lightest light part was a problem for me for some reason. I guess I am scared of highlights



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  13. #103
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    Good stuff!

    First I want to thank Idiot Apathy and MattGamer for their comments!
    Matt: I think I see what you were saying about the deformation; it is caused by the quick transition back to light on the shadow side. The fill light is too strong, nearly as bright as the key light. It could probably be fixed by darkening the bounce light, and lightening the shadow too. Idiot Apathy: I like how you put it "...a white light with extra yellow." That is just what I meant by 'pale yellow' except your way sounds brighter. You are right also, white light adds to all colors equally, except when they reach the maximum we can see. Then the color values will start getting closer together = less saturated/intense at higher values. I try to paint in a medium key of chroma (from Ron Lemon's color theory) so I get a decent range of intensity, but then really saturated colors look out of place. Maybe I'll try something high-key in a future exercise. Hope I don't sound defensive having an answer for every comment, I will definitely try to put your advise into action!

    Bumskee:
    Good job on these, especially on going back and redoing it to get it right! Though... I think your first attempt looks very good. How did you convert these to greyscale? It might be a trick of preception, but if anything the green sphere looks brighter than the grey. Your reflected light looks better in the second one though, and you had much smoother transitions between value areas. In the first one you were getting some of my deformation in your shadows.

    Edges, value, and deformation:
    From Ben Mathis

    Painting with compliments sounds fun, how exactly would that work?

    Last edited by Kitsu; December 12th, 2005 at 04:02 PM.
    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  14. #104
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    jubilee, nice going dude. looks pretty spot on though I think you can push the core shadow smidge towards the centre, kinda looks like a bevel button..

    Kitsu, I am trying not to read too much of these advanced discussion you guys are having, hehe I don't want to mix too much in my head but start from the beginning. so I haven't read much after the last exercise I did. But I will join in soon! Yes, I really should post some findings on the book I mentioned. It has the intensity and blah blah on it.. that should explain some things. You can easily paint a diluted dull green sphere that would match the intensity of the gray one. Like what jubilee did.. or am I talking nuts here? I used two different brush for them, the green I had a wet edge rectangle brush so blending wasn't too smooth, not that it matter much I guess. Oh and I just used hue/saturation adjustment layer to compare the two.

    complimentary colours? well I saw some, happening at wetcanvas.com u just use two complimentary and b&W to paint.. meh can't seem to find it. but yeah limited palette was the idea..

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  15. #105
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    lighting

    Okay, project 3!
    This is the ref I used:


    This object looked cool and interesting so I spent a little more time on these then proscribed. My sketch looks very jaggy, and a first I thought it was because of the low-res digitizer in my tabletPC. After I finished the sketch though I poked around in PS's brush settings and found that smoothing was turned off for my custom pencil brush


    And here are the paints:


    Half way through the first of these I got really frustrated by my large chalk brush, so I switched to a large hard round instead. The top two are from light 2, then on the bottom are lights 3 and 1. The light sources are: 1-high front, 2-low side, and 3-mid back. For light one I kinda winged it. My values got really muddy toward the end though, and I had to use a darken layer to tweak it into shape. On light 2 I started by mapping my lighting using four values. On the left is the light map, and on the right the finished version. To me the light mapped version works better than the finished version, maybe some lesson about simplification there? Light 3 was done the same way as 2. One of the hardest things with these was deciding how much light to put on the flat faces. Assuming there is some environment in these pictures even the back facing faces would get some light. Also lights two and three are close to the subject so there should be some bloom. Another related problem is that the back faces need to be lit for the form to read correctly.

    Two tools I find usefull when painting:
    First is the problem of line work. In painting line work is a crutch, to me these looked a lot better with the lines over the top of the paint, but I am working on painting not drawing. I think that it is very important to make your paintings stand on their own. If when you remove your lines your painting falls apart then you arn't really painting at all, you're coloring. I only leave the lines on until I have the basic shapes roughed in, then I either set their layer to < 50% transparent, or turn them off completely. Painting over your lines would work too.

    Second is canvas flipping. I forgot to do this on all of these exercises so far, and they probably could have been better if I'd done it. Basically you should try to flip your image every ten-fifteen minutes while you work. You would not believe the number of minor errors and problems you will catch if you just do this simple thing. Also working from referance on a flipped painting helps challenge the observational part of your brain, just like drawing upside down does.


    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  16. #106
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    Shadows and details perhaps?

    Sorry no contribution here. Im kinda busy this week.

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    Hey man! THanks for doing this for every one!!! ima join in. I know next to nothing about lighting and vaule... Gotta go though all this wounderfull information first then ill be on my way with the rest of you...

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    @Bumskee: Nah, your being modest; there is plenty we can learn from you too. Would be cool if you ever feel like setting something up in here, this thread isn't just about color, even though it seems like it is... just happens to be what I've been studying lately and am somewhat comfortable with. On the Sphere Exercise: This exercise was really specifically set up for people to be off, to have them start seeing color with values, in fact I think value is actually more important than hue in many respects. It doesn't serve too much of a purpose to match a grayscale sphere, that's not something that you'd have to do very much. However it seems like a decent way to learn. Anyways, you did great on these, especially the second time around; see how quickly you adapted? If you want to have some fun with these again I suggest that next time you take the sphere's local color and then pretend the sphere is in a cool enviroment with a warm lightsource. What color theory book is this your talking about? I should really read more . Anyways, still glad to see you in here .
    @Jubilee: Cool to see you in here too . While reading what's in here take it with a grain of salt, not all of it may be true! Some of it is just a thought process. Your spheres came out really close, kudos! On your highlight you might want to try to keep the different sections in the middle of each other, erm think like a bullseye? Right now it looks a bit like your sphere has a bulge at the highlight. Keep posting! I'll take it as a personal insult if you don't .
    @Kitsu: It's hard to get your intention across on the internet isn't it? Just keep trying it out if you need to. You wouldn't be here if you didn't want to learn, that's why I'm here. Ron Lemen, fredflickstone, is a stud; wish he was around more. I kind of feel you've been painting in low chroma; This is kind of what I get when I see him refering to chroma range:

    The rectangular selection would represent most of the colors you'd probably use, the triangles leading to white and black would represent the most extreme highlights and shadows, the further out the less they would probably be used if at all. You can kind of think of this as a boomerang shape, at the top is highlights, in the middle is midtones or perhaps local color, the bottom shadows. The greater the overall curve the higher chroma it would be. Then again I don't pretend to actually know exactly what Mr. Lemen is talking about; takes many many readings and time to understand it properly, advanced stuff really. Everyone should read his tut's and the life drawing thread where he has spilled the beans as well. Anyways you might try staying away from the extreme left of the color wheel(picker?) for awhile and see how you like it. Looking forward to your next post, peace! Edit: Oh... you already posted... ok see below.
    @Bumskee again: I like that man, keeping away from some of the answers; sometimes I find it much easier to learn in smaller steps, foundational steps and work my way up. Also it's nice to not have all the answers and figure them out for yourself. Both ways lead to a better understanding of the subject I think. Your also right about it easier to paint a dull sphere to match a grayscale sphere; dull colors are very close to gray.
    @Kitsu again: Sketch looks great! Jaggy but great . I agree with you about the light map/plan looking better, well in some respects better. I think this may be because of the fine distinctions between the forms. For example on the top left part of the diamond shaped handle, in the fully rendered version you've lost your sharper edges and distinct value differences. As for values getting muddy, you might try a higher opacity until the very end if you need some blending. Figuring out the lighting got easier as you did the different versions didn't it? At least a little right? It will get easier and easier with the more practice you get. I'd would however ramp up your reflected lighting a bit to describe the form of the backs a little more, or check your monitor calibration? The problem with painting with lines (which isn't exactly a problem...) is that lines represent edges, painting deals with shapes. I'm not sure how exactly to describe this right now though. Use your lines for accuracy and then paint the shape while thinking about what strength the edge should b, are you going to keep it very sharp like the edge of a cube or smooth like the transition of shadows on a sphere? Canvas flipping is good too, something I should do more... anyways, cheers; until next time .
    @hariz_otaku87: Ok then, see you next week or else
    @seth1: Hey what up dude, looking forward to see your posts!
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Ok, looks like I didn't make myself very clear; sorry 'bout that. I'm trying to set these exercises up very simplistically to A. keep the time needed to participate/redo/learn short and B. To clear away things that might bog you down or confuse you. I think it's better to learn things in small steps, building a foundation and then building upon that foundation with the things you learned along the way. Also it's easier to learn a specific thing if you can focus solely on that.

    This exercise was set up in mind to clear out all the hard thinking and correcting involved in color picking. You should focus on making things the proper value and intensity for not only how they look but to re-inforce their distance, closer or further away from the viewer. (Go ahead and exaggerate these effects, in fact, you should exaggerate it!). Think about what will happen to your warm color as it disappears into the distance and what will happen to it when it's in your face, what will happen to your cool color? Remember you should vary both value and intensity but NOT hue. Your colors should be complementary so that you can mix them without changing hues, this way it will look cleaner, proceed faster, and allow you to use the eyedropper. You might try using your cool color for shadows and warm for sunlight, I believe our mind naturally responds this way. (do keep in mind this isn't always the case!)

    To pick perfect complements you can either arbitrarily pick your first color and invert it to get your complement or go an exact 180 degrees opposite of the hue slider.
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Going to post mine I did this evening to get you going:

    I had a spare monitor lying around and a videocard that supports dual monitors so I have a cool setup for this sort of thing.

    On my left is my canvas, on my right monitor is the reference (simulated). I set up a grid to help keep things accurate, later I deleted the grid (it was on a layer above) and just eyeballed it for speed.


    Again not that accurate or detailed (or pretty...) , you might notice a little purple... one of the brushes I used is set up for some hue variance... oops! This took me about 30 minutes, take as much or as little time as you need. Remember you are not creating a work of art here, you are doing this first and foremost to learn.

    You might find it helpful to start out with a huge brush, paint only large forms; generalize areas, the field the grove of trees, the road etc. Only go smaller when you truly can't fight the urge; this means your probably done with the big stuff. Then go medium sized, generalize the smaller forms within these big forms, rinse and repeat until your down to your details.

    You could also try and establish your brightest color, take your time on this and get it to where it feels right. Do the same with your darkest color. After this do your best to stay within the range of these two.

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    you can tell i've been in hell - that's the only reason i haven't seen this already.
    now - STICKED!!!!
    And i wend doing the first thing too. Did it at job so i rushed it. Also i'mnot in the best time of my life so... i jumped some posts in this thread - i hope i'll get back and read it all - it's awsome stuff.
    Thanks Idiot Apathy.

    Can;t uppload them from here so.. excuse me for the attachement.
    I also attached a bit of my search - i never got the time to make a sphere in my life - i started drawing doing Self Portraits
    So... i started with the 50% gray from the background and after a bit of value work.. i used the brightness/contrast tool. I didn;t know if we were supposed to use the whole range of values but i kew that i wanted to try the color on yellow - since it seemed to me a color i haven't used.
    During the process - i inverted the image to check the values.
    Also.. on the color side.. things got carried away.
    I started way to saturated and the temperature was a mess.
    I played with the Hue/saturation tool and then with the History brush to get it somewhere where i felt.. ok.
    I haven't used the picker - i presumed it is an exercise for the eye. Otherwise i would have copied the values and just color them - and i'm sure i would have got it still wrong
    As you see - it's darker

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    in fact i wonder if the excercise with the balls would no twork better if we would have a color picture of one ball and we to try to make the values by painting it B&W.
    I was this becouse... doing the color version of my ball out of imagination, the color part become more important.
    My goal while i was doing the B&W ball was to make a light yellow ball on th ecolor - but while working the shadows and all... things got carried away and i kept the values set just as a reference.. the whole yellow idea was gone.
    Also.. i wonder if we are to see a color sphere in real life and have to make the values of it.. it we would make them lighter. I guess that while we compensate with the colors from our mind... we compensate enough to make the image look like a color version of the B&W. If the values are actually darker or not... from a technical POV... should matter?
    Yeah.. i'm pissed off i failed

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    Thanks for the feedback Apathy! I understand exactly what you mean by painting with shape vs. line. Killing.peoples tut has an animated gif which shows it, and some of Sparth's old bw paintings show it. I'll try to think about that more the next time I'm painting. About the reflected light... There is none, it is a single point light with absolute pitch black all around.

    Color range: I think you broke the ranges up about right. In the picker shown though the keys are bent around. In the Photoshop picker the keys are nice rectangular areas. Here is a screen grab with my usual color range shown:

    I don't usually go to the upper right though

    Brush: I've been using an opacity brush on all these, I think for the next few I will use a size only brush. With pressure set to opacity you can get a smoother gradation, and it allows you to mix right in the painting. With a size brush you get crisper forms (the planes!) and more control over the end result, but you need to use a fixed opacity and multipule passes for gradation. I'm still trying to figure out what suites me best at different stages in a painting. I think most of the pro's use pressure=size.

    I also agree with what you said about learning being the point of these exercises. I have a problem letting things go, I want everything I do to be of a certain quality, and I think that is getting in the way of my success with these exercises (and the rest of my 'art').

    Idiot Apathy: Your paint looks great! I can't wait to catch up so I can give this a shot.

    Oblio: I think your spheres look pretty good. You make a good point though; matching value to color was the exercise, not coloring a sphere. Maybe there should be 'exercise one - part two' where we go from color to greyscale?

    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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    Well.. i did it the other way too and now i feel even more stupid.
    I was frustrated since my spheres didn;t look like real ones (they still don't) the value range was prety limited and also - i couldn't tell what color the colored one was.
    So.. i started with the color one and then tried to do the values - the result is the same.
    Color one = darker.
    I think that i might try with a very bright color and a dark color too. But i also want to catch up with everyone... so i might just go to the next one.

    Kitsu: on your plumming object - your values seem really dark compared to the photo.

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    Woot! Hats off to Oblio, thanks for the sticky man!

    @Oblio: Thanks for joining us! I like the idea of inverting to check the values, gives you a fresh view on it. I for one think your sphere came out looking really good and the values really close. I think your right about painting a grayscale sphere from a colored sphere too, it should be harder I think though; I'm going to add that to the exercise. You also gave me an idea for the next exercise (It's a secret!). If you read above the point of the exercise was not really to create a perfect match, just to think of colors in a value range, where they should appropriately go and a little bit of a map to get you there. Yellow is a troublesome color perhaps because when we think of yellow we see a bright vibrant color, but that is only a small percentage of yellow. If you lower the value and intensity you have a pretty ugly puke yellow for example . Not sure if I understand you right about painting from a real sphere, but the values would probably be the most important part but you wouldn't necessarily have to get them spot on for it too work as long as everything else was altered accordingly I think. You might even choose to emphasize an important part or color. On your second sphere: Again man, your too hard on yourself! It looks great. It may not look like a real sphere but it's not in a real situation. If your going for real you have to create an enviroment and a lightsource and understand the light coming from both. On this green on it appears to have a warm lightsource with the green becoming yellowish towards the highlights. What colors are coming from your enviroment? They will affect your entire sphere but will be most noticable in the shadow, perhaps your near a window and have a lot of blue light reflecting in from the sky, your green would shift towards blue and increase in value where this light hits it. There are many little things that add to the realism of an object. Don't worry about catching up or anything, do these at your own pace; they are always open and even optional if you don't care to do them. I will always be here to comment as well. Oh, and how are you getting your colored sphere gray? You might try converting to grayscale if you aren't already. Hope your life starts to look up man, looking forward to seeing your next post!

    @Kitsu: Hahaha, loving the title under your user name. Your pic's of the plumbing majogger have a white background meaning there would be a whole lot of reflected light, your right that with just one lightsource and pitch pitch black you wouldn't have any reflected light but this is pretty rare on earth; in fact if your in the room your reflecting light. That said, it's pretty boring to not have any reflected light; even just a little can really improve how an object reads. I'm not so sure that the keys would be rectangular in PS, I sampled from the ones I made in Painter and mades these from that:

    These aren't very precise just like before and I still don't presume to know what Mr. Lemen knows but you've got to remember that Photoshops color picker is set up kind of bizarre, it measures intensity twice thus duplicating some colors, see here: Post #2
    I'm not a PS guy but you might try a soft edged round brush for awhile with a little bit less flow to blend as you paint. This is a little bit like one of my favorite brushes in Painter. Oh, and it's ok to push your exercises a little more and make them into art but only do so after you think you've learned the important parts. Anyways, until next time . Edit: Basically I wouldn't limit yourself that much (at least not always), stay in these areas a little bit but think what color would look good instead of working with a strict rule set.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 08:22 PM.
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    Wow - thanks for the comments. Damn.. it feels like back when we all started it, and the SP group.
    I am frustrated about the spheres on the value side.

    Jubilee for example has BEAUTYFULL spheres. i tried my hand at 2'nd task.
    Here is a WIP - i gotta sleep now. HOpefully i'l continue tomorrow at the office Shhhh...

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    @Oblio: I hear ya man, just keep it up you'll figure it out. Jubilee's sphere for example, doesn't change hue at all keeping it much more simple to match to gray, it's a bit of an odd lighting situation but I think that's how I set the exercise up. On the blocks: Man, that white one is neat looking! Lighting seems pretty good as well as your logic for what happens on the shadow sides. Top of the red one doesn't seem to lose any value even though it is recieving less light, but your white one does. Black one doesn't seem to change at all in value, This is possible but it would have to be a really strong black. You might try tweaking the top of it just a bit higher. Not so sure the reflected light off the red would be so crisp on the other blocks, I guess if they were really shiny or the reflected light was very powerful it could look like that. To me it might look better with some softer edges. If you feel like doing this one again down the road you might have fun with a colored background and figuring out how that would affect everything. Glad you feel at home here now get some sleep, see ya later. Oh and what's with the un-updated sketchbook?
    - - - - - - - -
    I tried doing this exercise like Oblio suggested, color first then try and do grayscale. Ha, it was kind of crazy. What was most interesting however is how shallow a value range I made, if I had started with the grayscale I would have made it much deeper. There is a painting technique called Grisaille in which you would start out with a painting only in values, it's a bit of an old technique I think many of the "masters" did it this way. I think it's very important to nail your values. Ok, 'nuff chit-chat:

    Again, colored on the left came first, then grayscale.


    Here it is converted to grayscale, values are pretty close. But why did the background gray change in value?


    Here it is desaturated, I really don't think this is the proper way to do it; saturation adds value, this ignores that I think. However, grayscale seems to be a little off as well? I've really got to get some answers for this, maybe talk to adobe I guess.

    Edit: Did a little research and I'm not sure it's possible to get a true B&W as our eyes would see it (after all our eyes see things differently, and adjust as well!), however for our purposes I think converting to grayscale works well enough because we are doing both spheres digitally.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 08:04 PM.
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    Ok, did the blocks again, just to have some fun:

    Tried out some of the edges thing Kitsu was talking about. Kept my light white and tried to reflect a lot of the red background into my blocks. Had some fun with the reflected light, probably not that realistic but fun and pretty . Man it's good to have free time again!

    I picked the background fairly randomly, I wanted a dark but saturated color. Then I slapped some midtones on the blocks, pretty close to what you see on the top parts and went from there. With white light I think you should only increase value and intensity so thats about where the fronts are, but you should also factor in the extra reflected light (red in this case). On the kind of half shadow side I reduced the value and intensity appropriately factoring in the red reflected (and in some cases the other blocks) light. Not perfect but I learned a bunch! Good stuff.

    Hey are there any experts on drawing in perspective out there? I think a perspective exercise would be great, especially on shadows.

    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 09:08 PM.
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    Idiot Apathy, definitely agree with values being more important! I guess it's about understanding colours in values plus other billions little things that kick in. It's like what pointillists(sp) did I think, Paul signac did painting in blotches of paints in different hues but harmonious, I think it had a lot to do with matching intensity and values. Of course I am probably talking out of my a$$ hehe. Yeah the spheres exercise was much harder than I imagined but I am going to take your advice and paint in different chroma as well as in warm/cool environment. That reminds me bengal is King at working with cool shadows.

    The colour theory book I was referring to was by Johanes Itten, not sure if I got his name even right! but It covers some good grounds but very complex. well for me at least, I am just dipping into colours now so I will have another read soon, post my finding. Reckon it's ok to take a picture of a image on the book with some quotes? there's this table of intensity he talks about I would really like to share though most people seems to have the right idea about it here.

    I am a little scared to paint that block, I get lost in the wilderness with shadows. heheh but it's something we all have to tackle, again mighty thanks from me for running this.

    As for the painting, I think that's the kinda of exercise I was talking about using two complimentaries, almost spot on. nicely done by the way, I better follow suit and do some myself. Oh and colour before greyscale.

    Oblio, that's a lot of spheres, I think it's getting quite good actually. Good suggestion about painting a coloured object into values. I was flicking through some CA academy stuff that no longer linked here, but someone posted the link and I saw an exercise similar to that. That would be great I think, like painting an apple from life to black and white. That's hectic as I have tried it before..failed miserably. hehe.. Also would be good if we can post some photos of round balls or something in different lighting. I will go and see if I can find some, or may take the picture.

    Just had a thought, I will definitely get into that book, because as Idiot apathy said, desaturating isn't quite seem to be the right thing to do, as I also feel we are simply ignoring the intensity. Or it maybe be correct in greyscales but totally quite different in colour, as we know colours interact with what's around them. But anyways, there was an exericise similar I guess the sphere but matching intensity. Not the value as in yellow and blue of same value has different intensity. (Hope I am not mixing up any terms here). But will post soon of my readings shortly.

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    @Bumskee: Bengal is just plain king of colors, he's one of the reasons I became so infatuated with color. Funny that the book your reading is by Johannes Itten, he's the king of color theory . I run into him and that book every now and then, I should really read it. Anyways, shadows damned shadows... been struggling with them myself. Some links that might be helpful:

    The Whole Site:
    http://fineart.sk/index.php?cat=0
    Cubes and Shadows in Perspective
    http://fineart.sk/show.php?w=217
    More Perspective Shadows
    http://fineart.sk/show.php?w=218
    Here's one with an artifical lightsource
    http://fineart.sk/show.php?w=221
    Here's another site:
    http://www.teamgt.com/ft-tutes.htm

    I dunno, need to browse that whole site I think. I want to own those loomis books bad! Let me know if you find anything cool.

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    i need to re-do this with more colored cubes.
    In fact i failed all - the white one, the black one AND the colored.
    Not to mention the casted shadows and other stuff.
    Help me out guys - i'm going to rredo this - so all the feedback is too appreciated.

    First version - i almost nailed the white one when [Dan] told me that the lit corner has more light from above.. and i had to chance it all.

    Idiot Apathy - your cubes rock. I think i'm shifting the hue brutally and my colored one is more... splashed.
    My net was down so i din't had your pic at hand while doing my excercise... i might try to copy yours next maybe i'll learn something.
    Or just choose some other colors and aim to do the same.
    Keep rockin'

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    subscribing to this thread thanks to sir rob (aka romance).
    cheers and thanks for being ambitious idiot apathy!
    d

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