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Thread: !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

  1. #105
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    lighting

    Okay, project 3!
    This is the ref I used:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    This object looked cool and interesting so I spent a little more time on these then proscribed. My sketch looks very jaggy, and a first I thought it was because of the low-res digitizer in my tabletPC. After I finished the sketch though I poked around in PS's brush settings and found that smoothing was turned off for my custom pencil brush
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    And here are the paints:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !

    Half way through the first of these I got really frustrated by my large chalk brush, so I switched to a large hard round instead. The top two are from light 2, then on the bottom are lights 3 and 1. The light sources are: 1-high front, 2-low side, and 3-mid back. For light one I kinda winged it. My values got really muddy toward the end though, and I had to use a darken layer to tweak it into shape. On light 2 I started by mapping my lighting using four values. On the left is the light map, and on the right the finished version. To me the light mapped version works better than the finished version, maybe some lesson about simplification there? Light 3 was done the same way as 2. One of the hardest things with these was deciding how much light to put on the flat faces. Assuming there is some environment in these pictures even the back facing faces would get some light. Also lights two and three are close to the subject so there should be some bloom. Another related problem is that the back faces need to be lit for the form to read correctly.

    Two tools I find usefull when painting:
    First is the problem of line work. In painting line work is a crutch, to me these looked a lot better with the lines over the top of the paint, but I am working on painting not drawing. I think that it is very important to make your paintings stand on their own. If when you remove your lines your painting falls apart then you arn't really painting at all, you're coloring. I only leave the lines on until I have the basic shapes roughed in, then I either set their layer to < 50% transparent, or turn them off completely. Painting over your lines would work too.

    Second is canvas flipping. I forgot to do this on all of these exercises so far, and they probably could have been better if I'd done it. Basically you should try to flip your image every ten-fifteen minutes while you work. You would not believe the number of minor errors and problems you will catch if you just do this simple thing. Also working from referance on a flipped painting helps challenge the observational part of your brain, just like drawing upside down does.
    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  3. #106
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    Shadows and details perhaps?

    Sorry no contribution here. Im kinda busy this week.
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  4. #107
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    Hey man! THanks for doing this for every one!!! ima join in. I know next to nothing about lighting and vaule... Gotta go though all this wounderfull information first then ill be on my way with the rest of you...
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  5. #108
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    @Bumskee: Nah, your being modest; there is plenty we can learn from you too. Would be cool if you ever feel like setting something up in here, this thread isn't just about color, even though it seems like it is... just happens to be what I've been studying lately and am somewhat comfortable with. On the Sphere Exercise: This exercise was really specifically set up for people to be off, to have them start seeing color with values, in fact I think value is actually more important than hue in many respects. It doesn't serve too much of a purpose to match a grayscale sphere, that's not something that you'd have to do very much. However it seems like a decent way to learn. Anyways, you did great on these, especially the second time around; see how quickly you adapted? If you want to have some fun with these again I suggest that next time you take the sphere's local color and then pretend the sphere is in a cool enviroment with a warm lightsource. What color theory book is this your talking about? I should really read more . Anyways, still glad to see you in here .
    @Jubilee: Cool to see you in here too . While reading what's in here take it with a grain of salt, not all of it may be true! Some of it is just a thought process. Your spheres came out really close, kudos! On your highlight you might want to try to keep the different sections in the middle of each other, erm think like a bullseye? Right now it looks a bit like your sphere has a bulge at the highlight. Keep posting! I'll take it as a personal insult if you don't .
    @Kitsu: It's hard to get your intention across on the internet isn't it? Just keep trying it out if you need to. You wouldn't be here if you didn't want to learn, that's why I'm here. Ron Lemen, fredflickstone, is a stud; wish he was around more. I kind of feel you've been painting in low chroma; This is kind of what I get when I see him refering to chroma range:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    The rectangular selection would represent most of the colors you'd probably use, the triangles leading to white and black would represent the most extreme highlights and shadows, the further out the less they would probably be used if at all. You can kind of think of this as a boomerang shape, at the top is highlights, in the middle is midtones or perhaps local color, the bottom shadows. The greater the overall curve the higher chroma it would be. Then again I don't pretend to actually know exactly what Mr. Lemen is talking about; takes many many readings and time to understand it properly, advanced stuff really. Everyone should read his tut's and the life drawing thread where he has spilled the beans as well. Anyways you might try staying away from the extreme left of the color wheel(picker?) for awhile and see how you like it. Looking forward to your next post, peace! Edit: Oh... you already posted... ok see below.
    @Bumskee again: I like that man, keeping away from some of the answers; sometimes I find it much easier to learn in smaller steps, foundational steps and work my way up. Also it's nice to not have all the answers and figure them out for yourself. Both ways lead to a better understanding of the subject I think. Your also right about it easier to paint a dull sphere to match a grayscale sphere; dull colors are very close to gray.
    @Kitsu again: Sketch looks great! Jaggy but great . I agree with you about the light map/plan looking better, well in some respects better. I think this may be because of the fine distinctions between the forms. For example on the top left part of the diamond shaped handle, in the fully rendered version you've lost your sharper edges and distinct value differences. As for values getting muddy, you might try a higher opacity until the very end if you need some blending. Figuring out the lighting got easier as you did the different versions didn't it? At least a little right? It will get easier and easier with the more practice you get. I'd would however ramp up your reflected lighting a bit to describe the form of the backs a little more, or check your monitor calibration? The problem with painting with lines (which isn't exactly a problem...) is that lines represent edges, painting deals with shapes. I'm not sure how exactly to describe this right now though. Use your lines for accuracy and then paint the shape while thinking about what strength the edge should b, are you going to keep it very sharp like the edge of a cube or smooth like the transition of shadows on a sphere? Canvas flipping is good too, something I should do more... anyways, cheers; until next time .
    @hariz_otaku87: Ok then, see you next week or else
    @seth1: Hey what up dude, looking forward to see your posts!
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Ok, looks like I didn't make myself very clear; sorry 'bout that. I'm trying to set these exercises up very simplistically to A. keep the time needed to participate/redo/learn short and B. To clear away things that might bog you down or confuse you. I think it's better to learn things in small steps, building a foundation and then building upon that foundation with the things you learned along the way. Also it's easier to learn a specific thing if you can focus solely on that.

    This exercise was set up in mind to clear out all the hard thinking and correcting involved in color picking. You should focus on making things the proper value and intensity for not only how they look but to re-inforce their distance, closer or further away from the viewer. (Go ahead and exaggerate these effects, in fact, you should exaggerate it!). Think about what will happen to your warm color as it disappears into the distance and what will happen to it when it's in your face, what will happen to your cool color? Remember you should vary both value and intensity but NOT hue. Your colors should be complementary so that you can mix them without changing hues, this way it will look cleaner, proceed faster, and allow you to use the eyedropper. You might try using your cool color for shadows and warm for sunlight, I believe our mind naturally responds this way. (do keep in mind this isn't always the case!)

    To pick perfect complements you can either arbitrarily pick your first color and invert it to get your complement or go an exact 180 degrees opposite of the hue slider.
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Going to post mine I did this evening to get you going:

    I had a spare monitor lying around and a videocard that supports dual monitors so I have a cool setup for this sort of thing.
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    On my left is my canvas, on my right monitor is the reference (simulated). I set up a grid to help keep things accurate, later I deleted the grid (it was on a layer above) and just eyeballed it for speed.

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    Again not that accurate or detailed (or pretty...) , you might notice a little purple... one of the brushes I used is set up for some hue variance... oops! This took me about 30 minutes, take as much or as little time as you need. Remember you are not creating a work of art here, you are doing this first and foremost to learn.

    You might find it helpful to start out with a huge brush, paint only large forms; generalize areas, the field the grove of trees, the road etc. Only go smaller when you truly can't fight the urge; this means your probably done with the big stuff. Then go medium sized, generalize the smaller forms within these big forms, rinse and repeat until your down to your details.

    You could also try and establish your brightest color, take your time on this and get it to where it feels right. Do the same with your darkest color. After this do your best to stay within the range of these two.
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  6. #109
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    you can tell i've been in hell - that's the only reason i haven't seen this already.
    now - STICKED!!!!
    And i wend doing the first thing too. Did it at job so i rushed it. Also i'mnot in the best time of my life so... i jumped some posts in this thread - i hope i'll get back and read it all - it's awsome stuff.
    Thanks Idiot Apathy.

    Can;t uppload them from here so.. excuse me for the attachement.
    I also attached a bit of my search - i never got the time to make a sphere in my life - i started drawing doing Self Portraits
    So... i started with the 50% gray from the background and after a bit of value work.. i used the brightness/contrast tool. I didn;t know if we were supposed to use the whole range of values but i kew that i wanted to try the color on yellow - since it seemed to me a color i haven't used.
    During the process - i inverted the image to check the values.
    Also.. on the color side.. things got carried away.
    I started way to saturated and the temperature was a mess.
    I played with the Hue/saturation tool and then with the History brush to get it somewhere where i felt.. ok.
    I haven't used the picker - i presumed it is an exercise for the eye. Otherwise i would have copied the values and just color them - and i'm sure i would have got it still wrong
    As you see - it's darker
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  7. #110
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    in fact i wonder if the excercise with the balls would no twork better if we would have a color picture of one ball and we to try to make the values by painting it B&W.
    I was this becouse... doing the color version of my ball out of imagination, the color part become more important.
    My goal while i was doing the B&W ball was to make a light yellow ball on th ecolor - but while working the shadows and all... things got carried away and i kept the values set just as a reference.. the whole yellow idea was gone.
    Also.. i wonder if we are to see a color sphere in real life and have to make the values of it.. it we would make them lighter. I guess that while we compensate with the colors from our mind... we compensate enough to make the image look like a color version of the B&W. If the values are actually darker or not... from a technical POV... should matter?
    Yeah.. i'm pissed off i failed
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  8. #111
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    Thanks for the feedback Apathy! I understand exactly what you mean by painting with shape vs. line. Killing.peoples tut has an animated gif which shows it, and some of Sparth's old bw paintings show it. I'll try to think about that more the next time I'm painting. About the reflected light... There is none, it is a single point light with absolute pitch black all around.

    Color range: I think you broke the ranges up about right. In the picker shown though the keys are bent around. In the Photoshop picker the keys are nice rectangular areas. Here is a screen grab with my usual color range shown:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    I don't usually go to the upper right though

    Brush: I've been using an opacity brush on all these, I think for the next few I will use a size only brush. With pressure set to opacity you can get a smoother gradation, and it allows you to mix right in the painting. With a size brush you get crisper forms (the planes!) and more control over the end result, but you need to use a fixed opacity and multipule passes for gradation. I'm still trying to figure out what suites me best at different stages in a painting. I think most of the pro's use pressure=size.

    I also agree with what you said about learning being the point of these exercises. I have a problem letting things go, I want everything I do to be of a certain quality, and I think that is getting in the way of my success with these exercises (and the rest of my 'art').

    Idiot Apathy: Your paint looks great! I can't wait to catch up so I can give this a shot.

    Oblio: I think your spheres look pretty good. You make a good point though; matching value to color was the exercise, not coloring a sphere. Maybe there should be 'exercise one - part two' where we go from color to greyscale?
    [Always remember that if a topic seems uninteresting, then it's just because you are picturing a solution that lacks vigor.] - William b. Hand
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  9. #112
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    Well.. i did it the other way too and now i feel even more stupid.
    I was frustrated since my spheres didn;t look like real ones (they still don't) the value range was prety limited and also - i couldn't tell what color the colored one was.
    So.. i started with the color one and then tried to do the values - the result is the same.
    Color one = darker.
    I think that i might try with a very bright color and a dark color too. But i also want to catch up with everyone... so i might just go to the next one.

    Kitsu: on your plumming object - your values seem really dark compared to the photo.
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  10. #113
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    Woot! Hats off to Oblio, thanks for the sticky man!

    @Oblio: Thanks for joining us! I like the idea of inverting to check the values, gives you a fresh view on it. I for one think your sphere came out looking really good and the values really close. I think your right about painting a grayscale sphere from a colored sphere too, it should be harder I think though; I'm going to add that to the exercise. You also gave me an idea for the next exercise (It's a secret!). If you read above the point of the exercise was not really to create a perfect match, just to think of colors in a value range, where they should appropriately go and a little bit of a map to get you there. Yellow is a troublesome color perhaps because when we think of yellow we see a bright vibrant color, but that is only a small percentage of yellow. If you lower the value and intensity you have a pretty ugly puke yellow for example . Not sure if I understand you right about painting from a real sphere, but the values would probably be the most important part but you wouldn't necessarily have to get them spot on for it too work as long as everything else was altered accordingly I think. You might even choose to emphasize an important part or color. On your second sphere: Again man, your too hard on yourself! It looks great. It may not look like a real sphere but it's not in a real situation. If your going for real you have to create an enviroment and a lightsource and understand the light coming from both. On this green on it appears to have a warm lightsource with the green becoming yellowish towards the highlights. What colors are coming from your enviroment? They will affect your entire sphere but will be most noticable in the shadow, perhaps your near a window and have a lot of blue light reflecting in from the sky, your green would shift towards blue and increase in value where this light hits it. There are many little things that add to the realism of an object. Don't worry about catching up or anything, do these at your own pace; they are always open and even optional if you don't care to do them. I will always be here to comment as well. Oh, and how are you getting your colored sphere gray? You might try converting to grayscale if you aren't already. Hope your life starts to look up man, looking forward to seeing your next post!

    @Kitsu: Hahaha, loving the title under your user name. Your pic's of the plumbing majogger have a white background meaning there would be a whole lot of reflected light, your right that with just one lightsource and pitch pitch black you wouldn't have any reflected light but this is pretty rare on earth; in fact if your in the room your reflecting light. That said, it's pretty boring to not have any reflected light; even just a little can really improve how an object reads. I'm not so sure that the keys would be rectangular in PS, I sampled from the ones I made in Painter and mades these from that:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !!!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    These aren't very precise just like before and I still don't presume to know what Mr. Lemen knows but you've got to remember that Photoshops color picker is set up kind of bizarre, it measures intensity twice thus duplicating some colors, see here: Post #2
    I'm not a PS guy but you might try a soft edged round brush for awhile with a little bit less flow to blend as you paint. This is a little bit like one of my favorite brushes in Painter. Oh, and it's ok to push your exercises a little more and make them into art but only do so after you think you've learned the important parts. Anyways, until next time . Edit: Basically I wouldn't limit yourself that much (at least not always), stay in these areas a little bit but think what color would look good instead of working with a strict rule set.
    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 09:22 PM.
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  11. #114
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    Wow - thanks for the comments. Damn.. it feels like back when we all started it, and the SP group.
    I am frustrated about the spheres on the value side.

    Jubilee for example has BEAUTYFULL spheres. i tried my hand at 2'nd task.
    Here is a WIP - i gotta sleep now. HOpefully i'l continue tomorrow at the office Shhhh...
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  12. #115
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    @Oblio: I hear ya man, just keep it up you'll figure it out. Jubilee's sphere for example, doesn't change hue at all keeping it much more simple to match to gray, it's a bit of an odd lighting situation but I think that's how I set the exercise up. On the blocks: Man, that white one is neat looking! Lighting seems pretty good as well as your logic for what happens on the shadow sides. Top of the red one doesn't seem to lose any value even though it is recieving less light, but your white one does. Black one doesn't seem to change at all in value, This is possible but it would have to be a really strong black. You might try tweaking the top of it just a bit higher. Not so sure the reflected light off the red would be so crisp on the other blocks, I guess if they were really shiny or the reflected light was very powerful it could look like that. To me it might look better with some softer edges. If you feel like doing this one again down the road you might have fun with a colored background and figuring out how that would affect everything. Glad you feel at home here now get some sleep, see ya later. Oh and what's with the un-updated sketchbook?
    - - - - - - - -
    I tried doing this exercise like Oblio suggested, color first then try and do grayscale. Ha, it was kind of crazy. What was most interesting however is how shallow a value range I made, if I had started with the grayscale I would have made it much deeper. There is a painting technique called Grisaille in which you would start out with a painting only in values, it's a bit of an old technique I think many of the "masters" did it this way. I think it's very important to nail your values. Ok, 'nuff chit-chat:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    Again, colored on the left came first, then grayscale.

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    Here it is converted to grayscale, values are pretty close. But why did the background gray change in value?

    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    Here it is desaturated, I really don't think this is the proper way to do it; saturation adds value, this ignores that I think. However, grayscale seems to be a little off as well? I've really got to get some answers for this, maybe talk to adobe I guess.

    Edit: Did a little research and I'm not sure it's possible to get a true B&W as our eyes would see it (after all our eyes see things differently, and adjust as well!), however for our purposes I think converting to grayscale works well enough because we are doing both spheres digitally.
    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 09:04 PM.
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  13. #116
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    Ok, did the blocks again, just to have some fun:
    !!Peer Project!! Foundational Activities - Learning, Teaching, and Toast !
    Tried out some of the edges thing Kitsu was talking about. Kept my light white and tried to reflect a lot of the red background into my blocks. Had some fun with the reflected light, probably not that realistic but fun and pretty . Man it's good to have free time again!

    I picked the background fairly randomly, I wanted a dark but saturated color. Then I slapped some midtones on the blocks, pretty close to what you see on the top parts and went from there. With white light I think you should only increase value and intensity so thats about where the fronts are, but you should also factor in the extra reflected light (red in this case). On the kind of half shadow side I reduced the value and intensity appropriately factoring in the red reflected (and in some cases the other blocks) light. Not perfect but I learned a bunch! Good stuff.

    Hey are there any experts on drawing in perspective out there? I think a perspective exercise would be great, especially on shadows.
    Last edited by Idiot Apathy; December 14th, 2005 at 10:08 PM.
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  14. #117
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    Idiot Apathy, definitely agree with values being more important! I guess it's about understanding colours in values plus other billions little things that kick in. It's like what pointillists(sp) did I think, Paul signac did painting in blotches of paints in different hues but harmonious, I think it had a lot to do with matching intensity and values. Of course I am probably talking out of my a$$ hehe. Yeah the spheres exercise was much harder than I imagined but I am going to take your advice and paint in different chroma as well as in warm/cool environment. That reminds me bengal is King at working with cool shadows.

    The colour theory book I was referring to was by Johanes Itten, not sure if I got his name even right! but It covers some good grounds but very complex. well for me at least, I am just dipping into colours now so I will have another read soon, post my finding. Reckon it's ok to take a picture of a image on the book with some quotes? there's this table of intensity he talks about I would really like to share though most people seems to have the right idea about it here.

    I am a little scared to paint that block, I get lost in the wilderness with shadows. heheh but it's something we all have to tackle, again mighty thanks from me for running this.

    As for the painting, I think that's the kinda of exercise I was talking about using two complimentaries, almost spot on. nicely done by the way, I better follow suit and do some myself. Oh and colour before greyscale.

    Oblio, that's a lot of spheres, I think it's getting quite good actually. Good suggestion about painting a coloured object into values. I was flicking through some CA academy stuff that no longer linked here, but someone posted the link and I saw an exercise similar to that. That would be great I think, like painting an apple from life to black and white. That's hectic as I have tried it before..failed miserably. hehe.. Also would be good if we can post some photos of round balls or something in different lighting. I will go and see if I can find some, or may take the picture.

    Just had a thought, I will definitely get into that book, because as Idiot apathy said, desaturating isn't quite seem to be the right thing to do, as I also feel we are simply ignoring the intensity. Or it maybe be correct in greyscales but totally quite different in colour, as we know colours interact with what's around them. But anyways, there was an exericise similar I guess the sphere but matching intensity. Not the value as in yellow and blue of same value has different intensity. (Hope I am not mixing up any terms here). But will post soon of my readings shortly.
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