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  1. #1
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    Painter 9 watercolor brushes.

    Hi all, Im looking for a little help with Painter 9 watercolor variants. Any Info at all for working with this brush type would be welcome but the spicific issues are.

    1. Brush creation, brushes look and preform differently on the creator scrachpaper and a real water color layer. (esp. method subcatagory and resat)

    2. Brushes with a wettnes of 0 dissapear if the wet layer command is used.

    3 General strangnes with wet layer command, resat, and the subcatagory setting of the brush.

    4. Getting a smooth even stoke from a captured dab set to wet method.

    I would also like to use plug-in method brushes on a watercolor layer but i assume thats a program limitation.
    If any one has workarounds for the above issues it would help me a lot, thanks for your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brand_X
    Hi all, Im looking for a little help with Painter 9 watercolor variants. Any Info at all for working with this brush type would be welcome but the spicific issues are.

    1. Brush creation, brushes look and preform differently on the creator scrachpaper and a real water color layer. (esp. method subcatagory and resat)
    Not sure what you mean, in the context of your question, by "(esp. method subcategory and resat)"

    Which brush variant (exact name) and which Paper (exact name) were you using when experiencing the difference in result between "real water color layer" and the Brush Creator (I assume you mean the Stroke Designer's scratch pad)?

    Had you made any brush control adjustments to the brush variant and/or any adjustments to the Paper controls? If so, what were they, exactly?

    2. Brushes with a wettnes of 0 dissapear if the wet layer command is used.
    By "let layer command", do you mean the Layers palette menu command, Wet Entire Watercolor Layer?

    Do you mean existing brushstrokes disappear, or do you mean that any brushstrokes made after the Wet Entire Watercolor Layer command was applied disappear.

    Which brush variant (exact name) and what, if any, brush control adjustments besides Wetness: 0 had you applied to that brush variant before noticing the brushstrokes disappeared?

    3 General strangnes with wet layer command, resat, and the subcatagory setting of the brush.
    Again, do you mean by "wet layer command", the Layers palette menu command, Wet Entire Watercolor Layer?

    You'll need to be much more specific with this, and other questions, if you want us to be able to give you useful answers.

    4. Getting a smooth even stoke from a captured dab set to wet method.
    Which brush variant (exact name) were you using? What Paper were you using? What brush control adjustments, if any, had you applied to that brush variant (other than changing the Method to Wet? What ajustments, if any, had you made to the Paper controls?

    I would also like to use plug-in method brushes on a watercolor layer but i assume thats a program limitation.
    As you've probably noticed, if you change a Watercolor variant's Method to Plugin, it's no longer a Watercolor variant and if you try to paint on a Watercolor Layer using that brush variant, a window will pop up, saying:

    "Only Watercolor brushes can be used on Watercolor layers."

    If any one has workarounds for the above issues it would help me a lot, thanks for your time.
    You might want to read John Derry's Painter 7 Visual Guide to Water Color, available to download both from my PixelAlley site at:

    A Visual Guide to Corel Painter 7™ Water Color

    There's one on the Corel site, too, on the page for Painter 8 Tutorials, but that page is not accessible this morning. I would guess it's the same Visual Guide. If not, the one on my site should give you enough information to be helpful since I don't think the technology has changed a lot except to make the brush variants work more smoothly in Painter IX.


    Jinny

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  4. #3
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    Hello Jin thanks for the reply, sorry about the vaugnes, I guess I was hopeing others had encountered the same problems and would know what I was talking about.

    To start with yes I am talking about the "Wet entire watercolor layer" command in the layers menu.

    As far as the exact varient of the brush, they are custom made but the issues seem to apply to to all brushes set to the wet method includeing all default watercolor varients. (Except eraser types set to the "wet remove density" method subcatagory.)

    Paper is the default "Basic paper" but anomalys seem consistent across all paper types ive tested.

    Details on spicific issues.

    1. All Brushes set to wet method consistently use the method subcatagory assigned to them on the scratch pad. Brushes set to grainy wet abrasive remove the underlying color while grainy wet buildup builds color in sucsesive layers resulting eventualy in black.

    On a watercolor layer a brushes subcatagory seems to change randomly between applications, abrasive brushes stop picking up color and build up brushes act like cover brushes, or dont laydown any color at all.( this happens without any changes to brush or layer controls aside from brush size; and feature in the case of bristle varients.)
    I assume this is all caused by rules about paint interaction and layer wetness that arn't enforced on the scratch pad, but i cant find any clear documentation or explination of said rules.

    2. This is the most annoying and easyly duplicated. If ANY brush that uses the wet method is set to 0% wettness in the water catagory of brush controls, strokes made by that brush will disappear if the layer menu option "wet entire watercolor layer" is used. They do not act as a mask and are not retreavable by any contrast, color, edge or layer adjustment (except undo of course)

    This happens reguardles of other brush control settings, paper type ,or layer type.

    Further wierdness is encountered if brush strokes with 0% wettnes are painted over or under brush strokes done with a watercolor brush that has a wettnes value greater than 0. Some dry strokes that have been painted over with wet strokes stay while some wet strokes disappear, the apparent randomness increases with repeat applicatons of "wet entire watercolor layer" (chance of painter poof also appears to increase.)

    This is easy to test, simply take a single watercolor brush and paint a succsesion of wet and dry stokes on top of eachother, designate one color as dry and the other as wet. change nothing between applications of paint except the color and wettnes slider. Dry stokes should have a setting of 0% while wet strokes have any % wettnes > 0%.

    3. In retrospect this is redundent with any issues probably pertaining to 1 or 2.

    4. Meh, this probably needs more testing on my part. I will post again as I nail it down.

    Thanks again for your time, and thanks for the web sites Jin they sound like they sould have some of the info ive been looking for.

    P.S I save and exit often and am useing a duel core Athlon with 4 gigs ram so i dont belive any of this to be memory or preformance related.

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  5. #4
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    I'm trying to figure this out along with you as some of what you say is puzzling, things I haven't seen before. My hunch is that since you're using all custom variants, you or whoever created them may have found some odd combinations of brush control settings that could be causing some of this strangeness.

    If my comments below seem less than firm and clear, it's because I'm "thinking out loud" and don't know what the answer is... yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brand_X
    Hello Jin thanks for the reply, sorry about the vaugnes, I guess I was hopeing others had encountered the same problems and would know what I was talking about.

    To start with yes I am talking about the "Wet entire watercolor layer" command in the layers menu.

    As far as the exact varient of the brush, they are custom made but the issues seem to apply to to all brushes set to the wet method includeing all default watercolor varients. (Except eraser types set to the "wet remove density" method subcatagory.)
    Any brush variant that works on a Watercolor Layer is set to Method: Wet. If a brush variant is not set to Method: Wet it's not considered by Painter to be a Watercolor variant and only Watercolor variants can be used on Watercolor Layers.

    Paper is the default "Basic paper" but anomalys seem consistent across all paper types ive tested.

    Details on spicific issues.

    1. All Brushes set to wet method consistently use the method subcatagory assigned to them on the scratch pad.
    Unless we change the brush control settings, they will remain the same whether we paint some test brushstrokes on the Stroke Designer's scratch pad or on a Watercolor Layer (or for other brush category variants, on the Canvas or on a Layer).

    Brushes set to grainy wet abrasive remove the underlying color while grainy wet buildup builds color in sucsesive layers resulting eventualy in black.
    Some Watercolor variants that use the Subcategory Grainy Wet Abrasive are Eraser variants and should remove color. Without testing all of the default Watercolor variants, it seems that some others using the Subcategory Grainy Wet Abrasive don't remove color, the Simple Round Wash variant, for instance.

    On a watercolor layer a brushes subcatagory seems to change randomly between applications, abrasive brushes stop picking up color and build up brushes act like cover brushes, or dont laydown any color at all.( this happens without any changes to brush or layer controls aside from brush size; and feature in the case of bristle varients.)
    Again, unless we change brush control settings, they remain the same no matter where the brush variant is used. That doesn't mean the behavior will be the same. That will vary if only another Paper is selected. It will also appear to be different if we paint brushstrokes or use the Wet Entire Watercolor Layer with the same brush variant and the same Paper selected.

    A brush variant's apparent behavior can also change depending on how much pressure is applied, or if we reset Brush Tracking between stages of painting or locations of painting.

    I assume this is all caused by rules about paint interaction and layer wetness that arn't enforced on the scratch pad, but i cant find any clear documentation or explination of said rules.
    That could be, and I haven't seen any documention on this either. I'd guess there isn't any since the scratch pad is not really where we paint. It's only used to test strokes while we make brush control adjustments and it usually does a sufficiently good job for that purpose.

    2. This is the most annoying and easyly duplicated. If ANY brush that uses the wet method is set to 0% wettness in the water catagory of brush controls, strokes made by that brush will disappear if the layer menu option "wet entire watercolor layer" is used.
    Though I've never seen this happen before, it did just now when I tried to reproduce your problem. In a blink of an eye, the brushstrokes were gone and in one test, everything on the Watercolor Layer vanished. Help > Help Topics, says that when Wetness is increased, the brushstroke "expands, eliminating the appearance of brush hairs." Then it says "Wetness controls the dilution and spread of the paint."

    That didn't make a light go off in my head, but doing some testing, I found that if I lifted the Canvas to a Watercolor Layer, painted some brushstrokes using the Watery Glazing Round 30 variant with Wetness moved to 0, when I applied the Wet Entire Watercolor Layer, those brushstrokes vanished, just as you say. After painting some brushstrokes and applying the Wet Entire Watercolor Layer command again, the rest of the imagery on the Watercolor Layer vanished.

    This gets curiouser and curiouser!

    They do not act as a mask and are not retreavable by any contrast, color, edge or layer adjustment (except undo of course).
    I don't understand what you mean by "do not act as a mask"???

    This happens reguardles of other brush control settings, paper type ,or layer type.
    It couldn't happen regardless of Layer type since what we're discussing so far is related to Watercolor variants (or custom brush variants you've changed to be Watercolor variants by choosing Method: Wet) and therefore Water Color Layers.

    Further wierdness is encountered if brush strokes with 0% wettnes are painted over or under brush strokes done with a watercolor brush that has a wettnes value greater than 0. Some dry strokes that have been painted over with wet strokes stay while some wet strokes disappear, the apparent randomness increases with repeat applicatons of "wet entire watercolor layer" (chance of painter poof also appears to increase.)
    I can't do a fair test to reproduce this without knowing the brush control settings for whatever custom variant you were using. I did to some testing though, using the Watery Glazing Round 30 variant with Wetness high and with Wetness at 0 painting both over and under brushstrokes made with the variant set to Wetness high. Not until I applied the Wet Entire Watercolor Layer command did any part of these brushstrokes disappear.

    [quote]
    This is easy to test, simply take a single watercolor brush and paint a succsesion of wet and dry stokes on top of eachother, designate one color as dry and the other as wet.
    [quote]

    Any Watercolor brushstroke is wet until the waterdroplet stops animating and the paint is dry. Is that what you mean by dry strokes? If not, I'm afraid In don't know how to paint a dry Watercolor brushstroke unless maybe you mean by dry, the Wetness slider set to 0.

    change nothing between applications of paint except the color and wettnes slider. Dry stokes should have a setting of 0% while wet strokes have any % wettnes > 0%.
    Aha! I guess that's what you did mean by "dry strokes", the Wetness slider moved to 0.

    That's what I did in the testing described above.

    3. In retrospect this is redundent with any issues probably pertaining to 1 or 2.

    4. Meh, this probably needs more testing on my part. I will post again as I nail it down.

    Thanks again for your time, and thanks for the web sites Jin they sound like they sould have some of the info ive been looking for.

    P.S I save and exit often and am useing a duel core Athlon with 4 gigs ram so i dont belive any of this to be memory or preformance related.
    I'm as puzzled by all this as you are, but agree that to me it doesn't feel like a memory or processor problem. It could be that we just don't understand some aspects of the Watercolor brush controls or it could be that you've discovered a bug.

    If reading John Derry's Visual Guide to Water Color doesn't get you an answer, I'd suggest writing up a very clear and concise report (but with plenty of important detail) and sending it off to Corel Painter Program Manager Rick Champagne at:

    rick.champagne@corel.com

    He just returned to the office yesterday after being away for a week or two so you might not get a response right away, until he catches up with things. I do know that he welcomes these reports and expect you'll hear from him as soon as he can manage.

    Maybe send him some screen shots too, since it'll make it easier for Rick and the developers to understand what you're talking about. Again, they'll need enough specific details to reproduce the problem and track down the cause.

    Good luck!



    Jinny

    Please do not PM me with Painter questions. Instead, post them here where everyone can benefit from them. Thanks!

    Jinny Brown
    Visit PixelAlley.com
    and The PainterFactory
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

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