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  1. #1
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    protected from the truth?

    I recently stumbled upon a very disturbing site and saw images of the dead and injured Iraqi people...sickening. yet its the truth, that one would never see on american television. should we be lied to to maintain support for this war? or "spared from disgusting images" or "protected". This war should not be censored-at all. CNN IS LYING TO ME.

    War photos. be warned.
    http://www.marchforjustice.com/id191.htm

    so do you think images like these should be broadcasted on TV? or is reality too much for the public?
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body


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  3. #2
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    I don't think thast showing gruesom pictures helps you in any way of making a rational decision. Because such pictures just stir up emotions that are usually unproductive. So if you think we should be seeing images of dead people and soldiers in Iraq, then we should've shown the smashed and burned people in the World trade Center? What goodwould this do? Everyone already knows that war,death, murder, accidents, terrorism..etc is ugly.
    CNN may sugar coat or politically spin the news for us, but times have changed. The news does not give us "just the facts", they are always fighting for ratings. the news networks have pimped themsleves out to get the best ratings. Infact it's all a show; dramatic music, annoying graphics, logos, wannabe superstar actors who end up being reporters,..etc.

    If you want to see nasty images, just rent faces of death or somthing...as for me, I don't need or want to see that shit.

  4. #3
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    Exclamation

    I just visited that site:

    Talk about political spin and purpose!! That site is using those images for their own purpose!!! See, everyone has their own agenda...obviously it worked on you.

  5. #4
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    what worked on me? It didn't change any of my views about the war. I didn't name the thread "I'm anti war now becuase look at these dead children" Its simply made me angry when i whatch CNN, that it is censored. I don't like whatching news for real information and then have it sugarcoated.

    do you like being ignorant? is that what it is?

    This blind "patriotism" is making me a little ill. Its one thing to have faith in your government, and support your country. but it is another to blindly follow everything they tell you- seek no other outside source- and be lead around like blind cows by the popular hand of CNN, which jerks the public off-with lies about "freedom" and "liberating iraq"
    flashy logos and celebrity reporters are one thing, but the problem is not that narrow-
    There is this overwhelming attitude that the proud American soldiers are crushing the evil Iraqi army and saving the innocent people from the cruel and murderous regime of a crazed dictator. thats bullshit. sometimes people need to see the truth, what is really happening when American bombs destroy innocent lives. and whether it is for a justified and valiant cuase or not, they should see the casualties- then decide if its worth it or not. otherwise its just superficial to them; they will go on living the lie of "world protector" that we Americans make ourselves out to be.
    we are all being lied to, I beleive nothing i read or hear becuase no one really has accurate information. I just buy more stock in photos because they can't lie as well as text. its all American propaganda.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

  6. #5
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    What goodwould this do? Everyone already knows that war,death, murder, accidents, terrorism..etc is ugly.
    its a profound phenomenon. seeing these images. why don't people want to see them? it's real, its the truth. I know why. its beecuase Americans don't like to see that they have blood on their hands, these photos would make them ashamed. its a reminder of negative things. its makes their swollen egos droop a little, that ultra patriot state of mind fades slightly and they ask themselves "are we really doing the right thing?"
    but it makes us happier to live the lie of coming to rescue the Iraqi innocents and battling evil. and to say, "i already can imagine how horrible it is for those people" is just naive. look at the damn photos.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

  7. #6
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    Look. CNN never lied to you. NEVER did they say people would not get hurt, or even die. Its not blind patriotism... if they did that they would never have told us about the POWs. There are enough predominantly muckraking stations that I don't doubt that showing pictures of wounded enemy citizens is probably unlawful in the Geneva convention.

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    okay okay...maybe "lying" is not the right term..."deceiving?" cuase its definately deceiving.

    and not CNN specifically- the US media in general.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

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    First thing I'd like to point out is that I'm not pro war.

    But I'd also like to point something else out.

    How the fuck can you honestly say that this source is any more creditable than CNN or any of the other media giants that candy coat war?

    Its apparent enough to me that the Iraqi government is capable of killing its own people... Then again I also understand "collateral damage" or "accidents"... and all that crap that goes with the word "war"...

    So I stress this point!!! This bullshit can get discussed for hours but the simple fact is there are to many conflicting sources in this situation. because BOTH SIDES OF THE DISCUSSION ARE FLAWED!!!
    War or no war people are dying... And it will never fucking stop...

  10. #9
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    Dude, some of those pics are from the first gulf war.

    Some of those pics are the results of the iraqis own uprising against saddam.

    It was that sites agenda to make u think it was THIS war. But it isnt.

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    a site that would play mind games
    Perfect Kay

  12. #11
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    why do you think that it's all a conspiracy? These reporters are risking their lives to bring you the truth. reportrs are relaying to us accounts and experiences of Iraqi people welcoming the collation forces. Why do WANT to believe that it's all a spin? This war has been more televised, reported, and followed than any previouse war in history. I think that there must be more reporters over there than anywhere else in the world right now. You're not getting propaganda and lies. I pitty your anger.

  13. #12
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    i didnt actually see the site cause im using a public computer and i want to get in trouble for going there but...

    the thing is that maybe those reporters are doing everything you say but every bit of information that gets sent back can be edited, adn most of it we dont see. everything has to be cut to fit on tv, for every hour of footage they only actually show a few seconds, if that. TV stations are competing for ratings so they'll show us the parts that they think we want to see. make no mistake even if the reporters are doing whatever they can to keep us as informed as possible whoever decides what gets put on air only cares about ratings and they determine ultimately what we see. so no, its not a government conspiracy or propaganda but isnt it the truth either
    Last edited by usagi yojimbo; April 4th, 2003 at 05:19 PM.
    VERY mercenary

  14. #13
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    These "embedded reporters" are in a difficult situation.

    They are travelling with troops who protect them - so they would never give bad comments or crits on them.

    The bad thing is that no reporters without a "license" by the US troops are allowed to report or travel deep into Iraq.
    The reporters with a license are "embedded Reporters".

    ATM, no one knows exactly whats going on.
    Theres no broadcast (sp?) which can report about all facts.

    Until then, everyone should look on both sides I think, don't be blind or stubborn.
    cu

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    I don't really beleive that this site is really the truth either. I don't know what to beleive. but i refuse to accept everything american media tells me. and I will seek as many sources as i can becuase thats the only way i can keep it balanced. I'm so sick of one sided stories. I wish i knew arabic so i could whatch arabian television...what better way to really understand whats going on in the minds of the arab country's than to whatch their television newscasts? or is it all "anti American propaganda"
    Are those Iraqis fools to beleive the propaganda that America is evil, holy war and this and that...then are we so naive to beleive that we havn't been influenced by propaganda ourselves?

    as for those "embedded reporters" they are simply pawns of the US government. the military would never allow them to see or say anything that might cuase an upset, or not work in their favor. Of course I'm angry Otis, and I pity your ignorence and naivety. you are far too trusting.

    are they Persian Gulf war photos? maybe all that video we see on CNN is really just old desert storm clips? hell, i saw a clip on CNN last week i could swear the burning building in the forground was computer generated. theres no truth, all crediblilty can be shot down. but again- photos can't lie as well as text or dialogues, and they bring emotion like no news confrence can....at least IMHO

    either way, no matter what purpose there was behind posting these images. Everyone should look at them, seeing pain and suffering is more profound than hearing or knowing about it.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

  16. #15
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    you sound like the niave one. you're so angry and paranoid that you can't believe anything at all. So what do you believe besides, george bush is an alien, the media is controled by the gov't, we all are part of one big conspiracy,..? Dude, you will never be able to know what is in the minds of every arab or anyone in the world. You think our news is filtered and full of lies, ...hey budy, go pick up a the news paper The Arab Wolrd..it might be in arabic, but most of the headlines are in English. They get the same reports(or what you call lies) that we get. They even follow the fucking NBA! But you think that every news agency in the world is a pawn of the U.S. govt? come on you sound crazy. We are not the only reporters over there. Every fucking country is reporting this war. you think that our gov't is pay'n them all off to tell the same story?? your not naive, your crazy. get help.

  17. #16
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    either way, no matter what purpose there was behind posting these images. Everyone should look at them, seeing pain and suffering is more profound than hearing or knowing about it.
    I definitely concur.
    the site made me weep, and I walk away with a better understanding of myself and the world I exist in.
    Never settle for your flaws grow and be humbled.

  18. #17
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    well put coma.

  19. #18
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    As for deception , I agree with you Clod. every news-breaking story falls upon semi deaf ears with me. I understand that these news agencies are trying to "get a story" even if there is no real story. That's what I hate about the media, they are always trying to make somthing out of nothing. So, to say the least I am not glued to my t.v. like most people probably are. But at the same time, I keep myslef aware of political spins, and agnedas too. especially when the source is using photos. Photos are sucha powerfull medium to distort the truth. especially when you throw a quote under it like that website did. How do we "know" what hurt that child, or why that lady is crying? do you hear my point?

    But with every event there is is always some truth to it, you just have to listent o the fact, and not get caught up in the way it is relayed to you.. especially when it gets confirmed by news agencies around the world.

  20. #19
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    just don't go so far as saying we are all being lied to by our gov't. In war time the military can't share specific information such as locations and sensitve info. for the safety of our men over there. So you are right when the press can only share so much info out there. But they are not trying to fool us, they are just trying to give us as much info with out jeopordizing (sp?)the division they are traveling with.
    In the end the stories will come out, and so will the books and documentries. Just like what happened in Somalia. The whole story wont come out until certain people can't be hurt anymore...like Clinton in somalia, Johnson in Vietnam,..etc.

    Clod your just going to have to wait untill it's all over to get the whole story.

  21. #20
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    About the truth

    The first dead in a war is the truth

  22. #21
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    well at least Coma understands. and I agree Otis, the quotes under the pictures distort the meaning of the photos. but the photos themselves still hold a sense of profound and sharp reality that I hadn't felt about this war till i saw them. and i just wanted others to see if it affected them the same way.

    have i ever once said "conspiracy"? you make me out to be a lunatic, which i find irritating becuase your posts are mostly brash presumptions-and very little support for your arguement. but eitherway, its thought provoking.

    but no one ever ever answered the damn question in the first place!

    Q: should the US public be shown these photos? is it right to hide reality from them? or should they be burried becuase they are hard to stomach?

    personally, i wish every american would see them [just the photos, not the whole website and its "rightous" cuase]. so that their opinions could be influenced by that of truth and reality. and the not the sugar coated media bullshit.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

  23. #22
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    personally, i think it's weird we're being shown and told as much as we are. i mean, the soldiers themselves can't even always write their folks and tell them what country they're in, (i know one family who hasn't heard from their brother in two months) but the news is giving us troop positions relative to the city and telling us what airports we have in our control, where we're flying from and what we're dropping. i, for one, HOPE they're misleading us because we know everyone else (including saddam) watches CNN also. i'm sorry, clod, this has nothing really to do with your post.

    here's what does:
    i don't think we're not allowed to see them, i just think that most news services aren't going to put those kind of images on the air. the reporters also don't curse on air, although that's a perfectly resonable reaction to what's going on. I have the feeling that if there are things you're not supposed to know or see, you wouldn't be knowing or seeing them. it's not that i'm happy about that, or i want to be led around like a sheep, but whatever.

    Anyway, that's why i like photojournalism better than the "news" because you see an image, and you form your own opinion. you don't have to listen to a reporter trying to be emotional, but not too emotional...
    ech. i'm gonna stop rambling now.

  24. #23
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    Codhopper,

    sorry, you may not be a lunatic, but, with a limited medium of communication with message boards, we all sound crazy somtimes. I admit, I'm no english major, my writting is terrible. I'm much better at speaking. I mostly use these war forums to vent, or start debates. So I guess I'm kind of a trouble maker... Like I posted before, we all probably have the same basic ideas, we just miscommunicate them thru posts. So occasionally we will make harsh statements with out any thesis or support, but heck, if we had to write a paper to back up every point nobody would read post anymore. Besides, there are poeple here who won't even believe in facts presented...(conspiracy theorists, ya know the peeps who think everything is a lie)

    My answer to you photo ?:

    Those photos shopuld not be used by the media or the gov't.
    The only reality those photos show us is the immediate picture or subject of the matter, ie:woman crying, dead baby, what ever. So by this, you can't call those photos reality, it's like calling a painting a reality. Photos and art have the same qualities and powers to convey a message. I mean, you could use a photo of a dead baby to make people hate Saddam and his regeim. At the same time use it to make Bush and Americans look bad too. When all along, that photo may not even be current or relative to this conflict.

    Look, if you saw a picture of a dead Iraqi soldier would you still be sick? Or a nazi who tortured milllions of jews in a camp? Probably not. Why? You can't ignor the fact that war had to happen to stop a bigger evil. In my opinion that is a just cause. Sure I think it sucks that millions of Germans, Japanese, Americans, Russian,, Birtish,..etc (the list goes on)
    had to die brutally in WW2. But it was for a cause. If you don't believe in the cause to liberate Iraqi people from Saddams regeim, then fine. But don't try to justify your opinion with photos. Becasue the photos can justify both sides.

  25. #24
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    Becasue the photos can justify both sides
    thats EXACTLY it! they justify both sides; its a level playing field, a paradox...its purified of all patriotic/self rightuos/misinformed bullshit! it is what it is and it invokes an opinion. thats why I beleive it should be broadcasted to the masses, cuase its both sides. not American not Iraqi...just real. the way media SHOULD be, imho

    Otis, I can respect the way that you seem certain that America is doing all this for a just cuase. Many people agree with you, and i do also-to a point. It is neccesarry to rid Iraq of Saddam, that much is clear...

    but I firmly beleive that Bush is doing it the wrong way. there are simply better ways this war could have been carried out. Saddam is not a clear and present threat to any country at the time war was declared on him, and with the world whatching- it woulda been hard to compile his army and more weapons to become a threat. so there was no rush! why couldn't we just wait and build support from the UN and handle the situation more dilpomatically? "oh, cuase the Iraqi people are suffering!" so we have to rush in and save them right NOW? There are millions of people suffering in the world, starving under opressive governments just like the iraqis, {north korea, India, cambodia-lots of countries} If americans want to be "world protectors" ain't it easier to fight hunger, than armed soldiers- besides, food supplies have got to be cheaper than missiles. Why did we choose to place all our attention on Iraq? cuase they have oil? cuase of the prior conflict in the past decade? those don't seem like good enough reasons to me, - please post if you have a better reason and can explain the situation to me.-
    therefore i feel anger and and an amount of guilt too. becuase those deaths portrayed in the photos do not seem justified to me.
    Last edited by Clodhopper; April 7th, 2003 at 10:05 PM.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

  26. #25
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    You are right when you said that there are other people being brutalized by their current gov't, or regeims. But your idea of solving these problems doesn't work 99 percent of the time. Some excamples:

    We currently send and $pend millions of dollars in humanitarian aid to hungry people all over the world. There is not ONE country in the whole world who send more aid than we do.

    But this effort does not make the situation better.
    One recent example is Somalia. See, when you have an opressive gov't it does not give to the people, it only takes. so sending aid to them just gets filtered out from the true people that need it, and ends up strengthening the gov't that does not.

    "Build support from the U.N." you ask? Were you not watching what was happening in the U.N.? If you think Saddam has to go, then you understand why the U.N. is useless. France, and Germany(who have veto powers) were not going to remove Saddam under ANY circumstance. If you think Saddam's regiem was going to change you are crazy. See, the U.N. does not work. It can't resolve or stop anything. If you want me to give examples of it's massive failure, here are just a few: Somalia, Serbia, and the mass genocide that they allowed in Africa.

    You have valid, typical questions Clog, but your answers will lead you to the same outcome: You have to fight for what is right somtimes, because food, apeasment, kiss-assing, deals wont do it.

    Saddam has ignored and scoffed at the world community for 14 years. that's fine, who cares right? Well, why have international treaties? Why have diplomats, or diplomacies if it doesn't matter if a country refuses to sign or go along? Technically Iraq never signed one treaty controlling weapons of mass destruction. Now N. Korea is breaking treaties left and right because (in my opinion) they know the world will not unite against them.
    So, you think appeasing them with food, aid, technology...will solve these problems?

    I think you know it wont.

    o

  27. #26
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    whos Clog?
    anyway, I think you are being too brash and self rightous to say that we are fighting for whats right. Those countries are refuseing to go along with the US becuase uh, maybe we arn't right?
    let me make something very clear Ogis. whenever there is a conflict. there are ALWAYS 2 SIDES. in the conflict at hand, there is another side, not just the American one. I think you need to at least make an attempt to understand why other countries refuse to follow an American led war. there are many countries in the world that are angered by the poor dicisions our president has made, and I'm not just talking about Arab nations. does that concern you? maybe the world is more likely to unite against America. because American diplomacy failed so badly the reprocussions of this war are going to strain future relations with countries all over the world-as well as cost millions and kill Us soldiers, British soldiers, Iraqi soldiers and iraqi innocents in the process...but at least the Iraqi people will be free, and "evil" will be defeated right? there had to be a hundred better ways for America to handle the situation. so diplomacy is not useless, Bush just failed to do it properly.
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body

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    Clod, I give up...if you think the world hates the u.s.a then forget it. I can't even debate with you if you assume that. Tell, me WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE? and then tell me WHY it would've worked. I bet you can't. If you can, then I look foward to learning somthing.

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    :confused:
    Last edited by otis; April 8th, 2003 at 12:58 AM.

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    sorry for all the posts, but before you call me self rightouse give me an answer, and lets get your facts straight:

    1.It's a coalation: 17-20 other nations are behind us!

    2. Diplomacy was thru the U.N.=so the U.N. failed

    3.If you think Saddam has a legitamite "side" then defend IT.

    4.I know why other countries like France and Germany refused to remove Saddam: Economics.
    Lybia, Angola, Iran, ...they all run the same type of gov'ts!

    give me a solution! this is not about self rightousness, I'm all ears for a better solution..hell the whole fucking world is!

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    Lastly, if "diplomacy is not useless" then tell me why Saddam refused to go along with the rest of the wolrd in destroying or stop producing WofMD? And what are we supposed to do about it???? He wont sign or agree to anything. The U.N. made resolution asfter resolution that he ignored. Give me ONE example or instance where he FULLY cooperated with us on a resolution or treaty...

    I am being completely open and want to hear your answers, if you are getting mad about it, that's you being self rightous!
    I'm open for solutions!

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