Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 37
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

    Help me convince a "concept-art hater"

    A friend of mind has recently decided that anything down from classical art and impressionism takes no skill to little skill. So far, we have been at least 10 to try to convince him that concept art takes as much skill as classical art, and all he has managed to say is that he is the only one taking the right direction in art.

    Here are a few quotes from him:

    "this may not be the Louvre but if you continue with concept art you won't be joining me there." (he's really not that good an artist)

    "there is nothing to conform to in concept art you can just do your own random thing however bad that might be and people will be fooled by it because there is no standard for drawing things that don't exist"

    Note: as retarded as this may sound: this guy is also has a very reasonable side. He gives in to good arguments. Are you all willing to help me come up with one?
    The advantage of being a beginner is having a much greater amount of teachers.
    Sketchbook?


  2. Hide this ad by registering as a member
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Lost in the Sound
    Posts
    4,646
    Thanks
    791
    Thanked 845 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by EmmDoubleEw
    A friend of mind has recently decided that anything down from classical art and impressionism takes no skill to little skill.
    Phshaw - well, yeah. I mean, just look at this place. As if. Pfft.

    Character of the Week :: A weekly character exploration activity.
    ____________________
    Other Weekly Activities: COW | EOW | IDW | POW
    ____________________
    Sketchbook | Finished Thread
    ____________________
    HIRE. ME. i draw stuff.
    FOLLOW ME. i blog stuff.

  4. #3
    Ilaekae's Avatar
    Ilaekae is offline P.O.W.! Leader, Complete Idiot, Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Southwestern Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,129
    Thanks
    8,241
    Thanked 5,581 Times in 1,789 Posts
    "...people will be fooled by it because there is no standard for drawing things that don't exist"

    I don't think I can trust myself in the same room with someone who can actually make that statement with a straight face...

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,347
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 121 Times in 71 Posts
    I bet ya he gets a chubby for Star Wars.....all concept art related.....without concept art, no Star Wars.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    2,987
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 290 Times in 173 Posts
    Your friend will never be in the Louvre with that attitude.
    My work: [link]

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
    I'm seriously starting to think he's just being a troll. The things he says are incredible.
    The advantage of being a beginner is having a much greater amount of teachers.
    Sketchbook?

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,505
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 540 Times in 203 Posts
    Trolls exist in real life?

    I always thought they were dormant beings awoken deep within regular mild manner people with decent jobs via the anonymity of the Internet allowing them to facessly express what arseholes they are?

    You're friend to me sounds like an uppity moron with preconceived ideas that have manifested over misconceptions.

    Artwork is artwork no matter what field, there are the good, the bad and the exceptional, the only difference is the end result and the context into which the artwork fits. For fine arts, the piece itself is the final object destination, to be viewed and appreciated.

    For concept art, the art is never the ends in itself, it is always a part of a greater whole, a team effort that arrives at a commercial product.

    He may even be a little astounded that concept artists as a whole have just as much if not more foundation that many classical and fine arts practitioners, based on the fact that we do not have the luxury of time and thus must relegate much of what we know to memory without the convenience of live models and what not. As concept artists we are also expected to know anatomy inside out, design principles, architectural principles, vehichle, aesthetic and functional values.

    I'm not heartily defending mine and many of our vocations, merely pointing out the fact to your friend that his comments have no basis but ignorance.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA US
    Posts
    1,127
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 78 Times in 51 Posts
    God this would be such a huge argument. For one, if your friend never humbles himself out a little bit, he's not going to improve that much. Two, what is it about conforming to other people's ideals, or conforming to reality that makes his art superior? Has he ever tried drawing a human being without reference? Many people here can do it reaaaaally well, and there is certainly a huge amount of knowledge and skill involved in that (as well as environment,creature, vehicle, etc. design. )

    I used to be really closed off to other forms of art that weren't really after realism (esp. modern). But in reality we're all working with the same tools and ideas fundamentally, we're just playing different notes and composing different songs. There is something to learn from everything, and even if you may not like it as a whole, there is something there that may be of interest to you and inspire you. So why be shut out all these other forms of art.. you think they take no skill and these artists dont struggle? We're all after an ideal of our own and we're taking in influences all of the time and revising those ideals for our entire lives as artists. I'm sure its safe to assume that many people working in concept art have the same kind of drive, passion, and thoughtfulness that anyone in a fine art gallery may have for what they do.

    Right direction pffft.. could you please tell him to lay out the road map to great art for us? I'm sure it would make this whole art trip a lot easier, and a whole lot less fun.

    Might as well go tell a musician to drop whatever he's doing and go learn how to compose classical music, because its the only "real" musical art form.
    Cave House Studios - creative animation and video
    What the Sketchbook

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Austin TX
    Posts
    11,707
    Thanks
    2,091
    Thanked 11,435 Times in 2,935 Posts
    concept art is illustration....what you have found is common. illustration is regularily looked down upon by fine artists and the fine arts community. however, just because a person can paint a nice figure, or paint a great bowl of fruit..or hell even a nice robed figure standing on some turkish rugs with some slave girls around him....the artist doing so may not be great with ideas or design. Mucha was a great concept artist/designer, so was lalique even though concept art was not their field. . However, most traditionally trained artists are not. take one look at www.gandygallery.com and see what i mean. zzzzz on content and subject matter there. On the contemporary fine art side, just because one can make a nice expressive painting and glue rice to it or wrap it in skotch tape does not mean that he or she can draw or paint a damn thing.

    traditional fine art is perhaps one of the most difficult things to do (might as well equate it to brain surgery, truly mastering martial arts, composing music like beethoven etc....however i would put the masters of concept design in a totally different category...though very much as challenging as any of the above....because it is for production, corners are cut, business is kept in mind, and thus the soul of the product is not much more than well... product. You see the difference? All the great concept artists do try to infuse some soul into their work. It is impossible to not when things are clicking well for them. However, it is not like these artists have six years to make a painting on our own time or of our own motivation. Thus the difference between fine art and illustration. fine art from ones self and of ones self. Illustration is mostly for others and not often of the artists own will or motivation. Ask coro if he would rather be at home painting a seven foot tall oil painting or if he really wants to paint that grand alien landscape instead. I know the answer.

    concepting for games and film are two different beasts. just like concepting for vehicle or technology design in the real world is different from that of games. Each field is a specialty that it takes years to get a handle on and can never be truly mastered. Progress can always be made. This is one of the beauties of our field. we can push and push and push and always improve. The latter being something we have in common with Fine Artists. The second point I might make is that our field is one of the FEW which hold any amount of respect for traditional art and traditional art training.


    Best,


    Jason
    Last edited by Jason Manley; August 9th, 2005 at 01:12 AM.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,505
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 540 Times in 203 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Guy
    Might as well go tell a musician to drop whatever he's doing and go learn how to compose classical music, because its the only "real" musical art form.
    *drops bongo drums...sobs uncontrollably*

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Do you think you can really convince him? Maybe if you think you cannot, maybe you should invest your time into something else.

    People will always have different things they value or do not value.

    Some like to draw from life, and some follow intuition.

    ~Shannon
    www.seewhiterabbit.com

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,505
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 540 Times in 203 Posts
    One thing I want to add, and I think in a lot of circumstances it is true - but a lot of concept artists can actually turn towards fine arts if they wanted to, but it the drive of creating an alternate reality that drives many of us.

    However, the majority of fine arts practitioners I have met could not handle an conceptual art position for very long at all - why? Time constraints and being required to create on command.

    For any artist to do this is is difficult, I know when i first started out, it was also extremely difficult for me, the first week of my employment, I turned out not one piece that was any use.

    The other thing is that our artwork mentality has to be extremely functional, in that it has to make sense engineering and function wise, even if we dont know the mechanics ourselves.

    Fine arts practioners are purely of a different breed, and I hold bothvocations in high regard since they both take enormous amounts of skill - albeit different skills. To shut out influences and potential inspiration from another source unnessesarily limits your creativity, as an artist, a cull in your creativity means you're serving tables at restaurants.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
    Thanks guys, you've come up with some extremely fine points. He's really insulted the concept art community, saying things I really won't bother posting here. If he doesn't give in, I might as well forget about it. Our friendship is pretty much based on the fact we are both art fanatics, it would be silly to risk that.

    EDIT: I was just talking to him and he's apologized for insulting the concept-art community, but still keeps his views. Oh well, that's as good as it's going to get.
    The advantage of being a beginner is having a much greater amount of teachers.
    Sketchbook?

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    2,925
    Thanks
    410
    Thanked 273 Times in 205 Posts
    I say let him have his own opinions on concept art or illustration. I've seen people on this forum that share the same hostility, but towards Fine Art.

    You see, some people are at their best when it comes to stuff they are fond of. In this case, you're friend happens to like Fine Art. Regardless of his technical skill as an artist, this is where he finds most of his strength. You know what I mean? I'm also into a lot of Fine Art, and this is what I want to do as a profession. Although I admire a lot of guys here for their technical prowess, i find the least interest in painting aliens, spaceships, knights, etc. I'd rather work from reality itself because this is where I find my source of inspiration and strength.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    2,250
    Thanks
    239
    Thanked 319 Times in 109 Posts
    If this can't convince him, nothing will.




    0kelvin
    www.WhereIsMyEyeball.com My portfolio! Go check it out!
    Sketchbook

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Santiago
    Posts
    1,795
    Thanks
    196
    Thanked 134 Times in 70 Posts
    I dont think you can convince him, his fist statements say clearly that he is to convinced of his own words, people tend to get extremely closed minded that way, besides there are some sites that are more suitable for fine art...the only sad thing is that people that dont open up to posibilitys wont grow...and im including the ones who pick one style and reject all other, and i mean inside concept art...for example, nowadays there is the " i like anime" vs " i like western art" thing, and most people just turn their backs into the style they have choosen to hate and never consider anything that could came from that source at all......so is not only a thing about separating the ramifications of art, is a thing of considering and respecting all of it ( or at least the ones that can be considered good under the standards )

    In other words, and this goes to everybody, "dont choose what to hate, just look"

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    sweden
    Posts
    834
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked 87 Times in 22 Posts
    So what if he "hates" conceptart?

    Let him haet away.

    First of all Art shoulb be fun so if splatting different neon colors on a 90*90 feet canvas is fun...then let it be so. I do get a little bit tired of listening to all the bullshit behind the art because i dont care, alll i care about is if the picture looks nice and there was some joy and fun behind it.

    EVEN if you draw a self portrait of your self with you eyes clawed out because your depressed you get something out of it, some joy to keep you going.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA US
    Posts
    1,127
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 78 Times in 51 Posts
    Here's the other thing I never understood. A lot of the old masters' work was commissioned, and thus would be illustration? But somehow they hit the history books and are considered fine art?
    Cave House Studios - creative animation and video
    What the Sketchbook

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    2,925
    Thanks
    410
    Thanked 273 Times in 205 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Guy
    Here's the other thing I never understood. A lot of the old masters' work was commissioned, and thus would be illustration? But somehow they hit the history books and are considered fine art?

    Illustrations are commisioned to end up in books, magazines, billboards, etc.

    Being commisioned is one of the things we artists have in common. The difference is the output.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    SWE
    Posts
    2,536
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 1,309 Times in 389 Posts
    Classical art and concept design/art are two different skills. Concept art is more about the design and idea than sugar coated rendering.


    I think it's partly true that a concept artist doesn't require the kind of skill a classical artist has. Coming up with a good concept is enough, the more time you spend rendering the less time you have to come up with more good concepts. Some inked lines and markers is often enough to make it deliver.

    Now, classical art was mostly done from reference using tools like a camera obscura/lucida. Lately it has become increasingly easier to cheat with digital tools (*cough* CG talk *cough*) which of course means you can get away with less skill and never bother to learn important stuff. It's more of a 'tool dependent technical skill' than 'tool independent creative skill' really. Shortcut tools tend to limit your expression too.

    Design skill is harder to emulate with digital tools and shortcuts (atleast atm), and I think that's obvious to anyone who have browsed digital art on the net lately.
    Jamen jag tror att han skäms, och har gömt sig. Vårt universum det är en av dom otaliga spermasatser som Herren i sin självhärliga ensamhet har runkat fram för å besudla intet.

  22. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    2,925
    Thanks
    410
    Thanked 273 Times in 205 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheus|ANJ
    Classical art and concept design/art are two different skills. Concept art is more about the design and idea than sugar coated rendering.


    I think it's partly true that a concept artist doesn't require the kind of skill a classical artist has. Coming up with a good concept is enough, the more time you spend rendering the less time you have to come up with more good concepts. Some inked lines and markers is often enough to make it deliver.

    Now, classical art was mostly done from reference using tools like a camera obscura/lucida. Lately it has become increasingly easier to cheat with digital tools (*cough* CG talk *cough*) which of course means you can get away with less skill and never bother to learn important stuff. It's more of a 'tool dependent technical skill' than 'tool independent creative skill' really. Shortcut tools tend to limit your expression too.

    Design skill is harder to emulate with digital tools and shortcuts (atleast atm), and I think that's obvious to anyone who have browsed digital art on the net lately.

    I beg to differ about your comment on classical art being "tool dependent". Sure, we all use "tools" to make our art, regardless of what style it is. But a big part of learning classical techniques is to learn how to see the elements that make up the art itself from reality/nature. It's not the "tools" that go center stage. I'm just saying this because people might get a wrong impression of what you meant earlier about classical art.

  23. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,447
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 49 Times in 31 Posts
    If it doesnt take skill, why does mine look like shit compared to massive black?
    Ask him to go get a job at a game studio if its so damn easy .

  24. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,556
    Thanks
    1,340
    Thanked 1,017 Times in 286 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Man
    *drops bongo drums...sobs uncontrollably*
    uhh.. drummers are not musicians. please do not make that mistake again.

  25. #24
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA US
    Posts
    1,127
    Thanks
    20
    Thanked 78 Times in 51 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by patdzon
    Illustrations are commisioned to end up in books, magazines, billboards, etc.

    Being commisioned is one of the things we artists have in common. The difference is the output.

    That makes sense, so as long as your art is one of a kind then it can be fine art.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheus|ANJ
    Now, classical art was mostly done from reference using tools like a camera obscura/lucida.
    I don't know how much of that is true. You're probably talking about the David Hockney "discovery".. its possible they used camera obscuras but to what extent? Thing is there's a lot of people alive right now, that are trained in classical realism and do not rely on these tools at all. There is a pretty good argument against it on artrenewal - http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2...ney/yoder1.asp
    Last edited by Mike Frank; August 9th, 2005 at 02:27 PM.
    Cave House Studios - creative animation and video
    What the Sketchbook

  26. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Oakville, ON
    Posts
    1,989
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
    My opinion? Don't waste your time.


    If concept art appeals to 50% of the public (hypothetical number), then he's in the other 50%....so concentrate your juices on the half that matters. If you can't beat them, ignore them.
    ********************************
    There are 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine and THE TRUTH.

  27. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    2,925
    Thanks
    410
    Thanked 273 Times in 205 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Guy
    I don't know how much of that is true. You're probably talking about the David Hockney "discovery".. its possible they used camera obscuras but to what extent? Thing is there's a lot of people alive right now, that are trained in classical realism and do not rely on these tools at all. There is a pretty good argument against it on artrenewal - http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2...ney/yoder1.asp

    That's true.

  28. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    2,987
    Thanks
    295
    Thanked 290 Times in 173 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 'stoph.
    uhh.. drummers are not musicians. please do not make that mistake again.
    *cries* no wonder no one gave me respect in my band.
    My work: [link]

  29. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    362
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    When I have these extensive arguments with my friends, it never works out. After awhile, you just have to agree to disagree. Honestly, you're right. If you have a friendship going, don't jeapordize it. That said,

  30. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by 0kelvin
    If this can't convince him, nothing will.
    I showed him a lot of that stuff and you really don't want to here what he said in response.
    The advantage of being a beginner is having a much greater amount of teachers.
    Sketchbook?

  31. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    SWE
    Posts
    2,536
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 1,309 Times in 389 Posts
    Well, I have already read the art renewal rant. I'm not trying to pull a Hockney on you by saying that they couldn't draw/paint at all! I should probably have separated the sentence about using reference (common) and using tools (more rare). Just reference (life models) can be enormously helpful.

    Classical artists probably used whatever primitive tools available to speed up the process if the deadline was tight; kings certainly didn't have time to sit still for a week. I can imagine that it would be especially helpful to have a tool to help with general construction, like a camera or a grid (draftsman's net).
    Human figures are often very well constructed, whilst backgrounds look very fabulated and unmatched like a flat coulisse. This because the were drawn later without any understanding of how environments interact with subjects.

    Girl with the pearl earring


    However, I was primarely talking about the current incarnation of 'copy what you see and add a funny hat' -art. My point was that today there's a lot of tools available to help you (maybe it wasn't clear in my formulation that I shifted to present day). A lot of artists seem to 'forget' to mention that they used photos, maybe even painted over or used noise/median and threw on some strokes. Most viewers assume that stuff was painted from scratch 'outta the head', which is rarely the case.

    I can enjoy machine produced art too, like Julia fractals, I just think it takes less skill from the human part, and skill is what we're talking about here. To me skill is 'outta the head', but if tools can ADD to that, I'm fine with it.

    Edit: Drawing machines.
    Last edited by Prometheus|ANJ; August 10th, 2005 at 03:17 AM.
    Jamen jag tror att han skäms, och har gömt sig. Vårt universum det är en av dom otaliga spermasatser som Herren i sin självhärliga ensamhet har runkat fram för å besudla intet.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. "Concept" practice, and some "coloring" help
    By Egg0 in forum Art Critique Center
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: July 15th, 2011, 06:58 PM
  2. SketchBook: Art_Addict :: """"""""""""" PRAHA DROP """"""""""""
    By Art_Addict in forum Sketchbooks
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: March 26th, 2010, 03:43 PM
  3. Gun concept """Third UPDATE"""
    By JanDegler in forum Art Critique Center
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: February 29th, 2008, 03:29 PM
  4. 3 Shorts : "Open" "Grow" "Robot Ali"
    By kingsley in forum Art Critique Center
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: December 12th, 2007, 05:18 PM
  5. Replies: 16
    Last Post: September 7th, 2006, 09:25 AM

Members who have read this thread: 0

There are no members to list at the moment.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Designed by The Coldest Water, we build the coldest best water bottles, ice packs and best pillows.