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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Quality of the conceptart.org forums

    I just read a long post of JeffZNY and agreed in many points on what he said.

    click here

    First of all, please don't rant on me with accusations like "Hey, why do you say stuff like this when you nearly didnt post any art on those forums" because I DO draw for hours every day, I just don't have a scanner or a digicam to show my stuff at the moment.
    When I first entered these forums I was overwhelmed with the quality of work on it. Not only were there many totally inspiring sketchbooks and finished pieces to be seen but also LOADS of tips and tutorials on how to create great pieces of art. So I decided to register, surf some more and DRAW all day to improve my abilities in arts.
    As JeffZNY said, I also noticed a dramatic change during the last 2-3 months or so. The amount of registered users increased dramatically and so the amount of art posted here increased to a formerly unknown quantity.

    I don't say every new user here posts bad art, but I noticed that MANY users post their 5 minutes photoshop mousepainted crappy lookin pieces in the finally finished section.
    I mean, of course it's great that many people from all around the world became part of this community but I think there should be somewhat stricter guidelines of WHAT should be posted in the finally finished section or in the PLEASE give me critics sections..

    I thought about maybe starting a well viewable sticky thread- sorta thing like on eatpoo as a guide for "Art Newbies".
    Many problems that people have when they post art here are alike and mostly come from practising wrong or too less. so instead of starting like 4 threads in the finally finished section with some manga drawings those people should realise how to practise and learn the basic foundations of art like

    perspective, anatomy, proportions, life drawing etc. etc.

    and i also think that some of the mods could lead a somewhat tighter regime around here and for example lock threads that are totally useless somewhat earlier.
    i dont think these forums have to change drastically but i've gotten the feeling that all those changes lead to a ratio of quantity over quality.

    i hope someone understood what i just wrote.

    so what do you guys think aboot this?


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  3. #2
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    i dunno, i think the trouble is theres a huge gap between "finished forum - work must be at proffesional level" and "beginners forum - for art noobs"
    bassicaly theres nowhere for people who are inbetween noob and proffessioanl (like me for instance ^-^) to post there finished peices. and i can understand why people wouldnt want to post something they see as finished in the sketches forum, or just in their sketchbooks.

    i cant really see what can be done without seperating the amazing artists from the not so amazing ones, which is something im sure nobody wants.

    something that could be done is sort of add some new life into the "best of CA" forum, and use that as the proffesional art section. therfore anyone (except etreme noobs who need to go in the begginners forum for crits) can post in the finished section, as long as its finished, and then mods can simply move all the awesome ones to the best of forum (which would need to be moved to the top)
    but then this again kind of seperates the best ones with the not so best ones, even those who are close, but not quite. and the mods would probably have a hard time deciding sometimes

    i know that if this forum was more 'strict' in its quality back when i first joined up, i probably wouldnt be where i am today, and if i was, probably wouldnt have a chance to get further ^-^

    i think maybe simply a change of title for the finaly finished section would do. change it to something like... i dunno, something less vague than simply "finally finished" so that only the best guys and gals would post there, and the rest of us could post in the new finished forum, when we finish something, hoping to one day be good enough to be able to post in the amazing concept art/illustration (or whatever) forum ^-^


    ... i dunno, im tired. i dont think a huge change is needed or should be done. i like it just the way it is, but i think a slight change or titles or rules, and maybe a new finished forum for us guys inbetween noob and pro, who still produce finished pieces, could be a good idea.



    peace
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    » blog
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    (First rule of Pocket Club...)

  4. #3
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    All you need to do is to brainwash everyone so that only the extremely good people can post in the finished section. Oops, brainfart!

    Anyways, cartoonfox has some nice points there. The idea of having the mods move the good stuff to a special forum is very nice and probably outweighs my idea of having an 'approval' system for the finished section because it'll mean less work for the mods. Maybe put in a 'ALMOST finished' forum?

    *shrugs* So yeah, I didn't say anything new..

  5. #4
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    Interesting subject. It all comes down to the subjectivity of "Professional Art." In other words, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Often times when a piece is not "up to snuff" in the finished forums, it is moved to the helpful critiques forums anyway. I couls sit here and point out some art that gets major props as being total crapola in my eyes, but at the end of the day, I just adopt a healthy respect for any and all art I see, just pointing out what I can when I can. Jeff had some good points about sketchbooks going to graveyards, but that's why you update as much as you can, working whatever angle you can. For my part, I found myself angry when I was told I wasn't professional quality when I started here. or at least when the flaws in my art were pointed out. However, I spend my time working on these issues, and I can say that even though I don't have one of the greatest sketchbooks here, one can see some drastic improvement. it is my choice NOT to update as much as some others, that's my call. Mid-level artsist (such as myself) are still able to participate as much as they can. Frankly, I found the more I got active here, the more people started to challenge my art. I don't think it's worth it to complain about not recieveing crits or having "noob" art where it doesn't belong. Just do your thing, that's all you need to do.
    He who asks is a fool for five minutes,
    but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

    Starting over.

  6. #5
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    You know what I think needs to be pushed more here though (since we're on the subject)? Thunderdome. What a creative concept that isn't nearly utilized enough!
    He who asks is a fool for five minutes,
    but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

    Starting over.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim

    First of all, please don't rant on me with accusations like "Hey, why do you say stuff like this when you nearly didnt post any art on those forums" because I DO draw for hours every day, I just don't have a scanner or a digicam to show my stuff at the moment.
    That is no excuse for why you haven't posted your artwork. I found out today that kinkos only charges 30 cents per minute to use their scanners and I hope to have my artwork displayed by next week. You have no excuse to post your artwork and should not

    Quote Originally Posted by Lim
    I don't say every new user here posts bad art, but I noticed that MANY users post their 5 minutes photoshop mousepainted crappy lookin pieces in the finally finished section.
    I mean, of course it's great that many people from all around the world became part of this community but I think there should be somewhat stricter guidelines of WHAT should be posted in the finally finished section or in the PLEASE give me critics sections..

    Also your opinions seem too drastic and would discourage alot of people from posting their artwork. This site has inspired me to great heights to contirbute my artwork and truly be apart of this community.

    The CA community as I see it is filled with both professionals and amateurs alike and the fact that both post in the same forums is what I think makes CA truly great. To take that away because of someones dislike over seeing art that varies in quality would be a very selfish thing to do.
    -Call me Semaj for short.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssenkrah Semaj
    ...Also your opinions seem too drastic and would discourage alot of people from posting their artwork. This site has inspired me to great heights to contirbute my artwork and truly be apart of this community.

    The CA community as I see it is filled with both professionals and amateurs alike and the fact that both post in the same forums is what I think makes CA truly great. To take that away because of someones dislike over seeing art that varies in quality would be a very selfish thing to do.

    that is very true...
    yeah i think there is no need to change anything
    i just think more threads should be moved to the best of CA forum, and maybe move the best of CA forum up, like underneath finaly finished or something.

    although i do feel the mods should check over more often, as i have seen some threads which have stuff which is obviosly not finished, regardless of the quality, thats the only time it should be moved to either the beginners forum, or the sketches and wip forum.


    there we are, i think everythings all sorted now (why do i get the feeling this thread is gonna stretch over 2/3 pages still ^-^)



    peace
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    » blog
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    (First rule of Pocket Club...)

  9. #8
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    Just what we need, someone who wants to introduce a class system based on artistic experience and skill. Maybe www.newbieconceptart.org or stillworkingonmylifesketches.com might be where you would like to place your subjective selection of who should and should not be posting in the finished section of the forums.

    Lim this is an art forum, plain and simple I want you to take Kliensmoker's words to heart here in what a valued diversity we have ALWAYS had at CA.org.

  10. #9
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    After reading all this i guess i feel i have to apologize a bit. I havent been putting absolutely anything worthwhile into this forum. Not much of my progress skecthbook isnt really showing progress or practice sketches...

    I kind of get the vibe of what everyone is talking about. You can usually tell if someone is dediacted to their work or not when no matter what level of experience they have and then they just post up here for the hell of it.

    I guess im only saying this because im going through a bad time rightnow with forcing myself to draw, even doing studies. I procrastinate a lot, and Im trying hard as hell to quit so i know im getting somewhere.
    "One needs a certain humility to learn, arrogance never does good." Chiseledrocks.com article

  11. #10
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    i think the big problem with the forums is that we need more female members . it feels like a mens club for boys.

  12. #11
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    Post Think what you may of me...

    CA,

    I read the link word for word and every word here.

    I have been with CA since the first few months of birth and I have seen nothing ..NOTHING but, a steady increase in Quality. Quality as in the amount of resources and opportunities. We know nothing is perfect and CA is not excluded but, what we have here is a generously presented community dedicated to help one and other grow. CA is nothing more than what we put into it. We can sit all day typing bullshit or we can put our efforts into setting examples.

    I am "Not" pointing fingers at anyone person...
    This isn't a place for Cry Babies(Yes, take that to heart).

    This isn't a place for wishful thinkers.

    This isn't a place for people thinking "There's always a tomorrow".



    This IS a place for People aspirring to be Great People. A place for the Spirited and Energetic. For all wanting to make something Meaningful in their lives.

    And if you are not up for Treacherous Training and Deadly Hard Work then there is a McDonald's around every corner.. Get the Fuck out of my face.


    I love this place and I love you guys. Let's just do something to brighten this world before it is silenced by a nuke.

    -JtJ
    Last edited by JoshuaTheJames; April 1st, 2005 at 11:47 PM.

  13. #12
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    I liked it better when best of CA was at the top. I would think you'd want to show your best work first, also agree with the finish section being pretty mediocre for some time.

  14. #13
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    We could hire a team of strippers to do nothing but crit artwork.

    This site is great, all it needs is robot of the week instead of creature of the week.

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    Btw I love the fact that the beginner artist's work get tossed in the Helpful Crits Forums.

    What GREAT inspiration! The strong keep battling while the weak, jaded and beaten get weeded out.


    I hope you all push yourselves until you are crying from the pain. And once the dust clears and the sun shines you would have deserved your smile.

    -JtJ
    Last edited by JoshuaTheJames; April 1st, 2005 at 09:39 PM.

  16. #15
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    Joshua-- I hope you don't mean to imply that pointing out flaws in a system indicate that the complainant does not love this place...

  17. #16
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    Honestly joshuathejames thank you for being so blunt... I rarely meet people like you, even my teachers are to complimentery when it comes to art. The only person I have to kick my ass into place when it comes to really pushing myself is me. Everyone should respect what you just said, thank you. At least for me I know your intentions are selfless and good even if they are "straight". it just makes me want to become better, especially sense i want a friggen job when i get out of school.

    One of my biggest pet peeves is when people try to beat around the bush...


    -Wisdom_Cube
    Last edited by Wisdom_Cube; April 1st, 2005 at 09:51 PM.
    "One needs a certain humility to learn, arrogance never does good." Chiseledrocks.com article

  18. #17
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    JeffZNY: Reading what you written... this is a site with 20,791 members there will be a influx of "bad" art mostly by newcomers that have not yet learn the rules. I've seen many of those threads moved. These newcomers have continued to post where they have been moved since they learnt the ways and rules of these forums. Though there are some exception at least one who reposted it since it got moved, but anyway out of 20,791 I've seen one example of this...this year.

    My experience from these forums are... that it's more of a wave pattern you know some times theres an influx of not so good pics int the "finally finished " then theres an influx of good pics and so on, the same thing goes for crits and comments etc. I have also seen a steady change of the structure etc of this forums to the better.

    I think as long as we all try to help each other out wheter it's with crits or by informing newcomers about rules, helping them with how to post pics etc. this will not become any serious problem. As I get this site it's about helping amateurs like me aswell as promoting good artist etc. It's not always easy for newcomers to these forums to get all the rules etc. at once and the site is growing and becoming bigger it will always be periods of influx of art that should be on another place in these forums etc. There have been art put in "the helpul crit" that has been moved to "the best of ca". There has been people not getting how to post images then someone helped them and they showed really great paintings. There has been pics put in "finally finished" that have been moved to the "helpful crit" I know I've rambled a lot but I hope you get my point in all the rambling
    My sketchbook flawed to the max page 5
    Ps:Hope you understand my English.
    Remember my advices taste best with a grain of salt.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffZNY
    Joshua-- I hope you don't mean to imply that pointing out flaws in a system indicate that the complainant does not love this place...

    Not at all. I know you love it here.


    I was merely disagreeing.


    To be honest I have my complaints also. So don't think you are alone.
    But, The flaws are very much outweighed by the good.

    -Joshua



    MindFlaw- I agree.
    Last edited by JoshuaTheJames; April 1st, 2005 at 10:04 PM.

  20. #19
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    There are here actualy people who's only goal in art is to not being able to draw from life , not making art their source of income whats so ever but actualy to make ANIME FANART !!!!! I have totaly nothing against those people and amount and quantity of people is fine with me , i get my crits i make friends like i did 1 year ago when i just joined... but some more clear rules like over at eatpoo's guide for noobs is something that is kinda needed .. cause CA is about great artists who are a great inspiration for beginners who some day want to be same place and have same skills ...but not about people who join here to post their daily pokemon fanart :s and something like a guide for noobs would kinda "prevent" people to post that stuff :s (tho if its done good its cool , but its kinda "not" that good ... so..)

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eew
    There are here actualy people who's only goal in art is to not being able to draw from life , not making art their source of income whats so ever but actualy to make ANIME FANART !!!!! I have totaly nothing against those people and amount and quantity of people is fine with me , i get my crits i make friends like i did 1 year ago when i just joined... but some more clear rules like over at eatpoo's guide for noobs is something that is kinda needed .. cause CA is about great artists who are a great inspiration for beginners who some day want to be same place and have same skills ...but not about people who join here to post their daily pokemon fanart :s and something like a guide for noobs would kinda "prevent" people to post that stuff :s (tho if its done good its cool , but its kinda "not" that good ... so..)
    It's all about under what pretense the art is posted. Can't really tell people NOT to post, who are we to say their purpose in the art? I am merely disagreeing, here, not pointing out flaws in logic. frankly, I enjoy looking at beginning artists and helping them in what way I can. Again, I am by no means "great," but I do know a thing or two about about art. I am glad to help anyone willing to post. It reaffirms why I do art, and that's not just some idealistic idiocy that someone says to feel good about themselves. If I didn't get the advice I have had, where the fuck would I be? Certainly not where I am now.
    He who asks is a fool for five minutes,
    but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

    Starting over.

  22. #21
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    this site's competition is nothing close to the professional level of the jobs we all aspire to attain in the future. a lot of these pro's on this board had to go through the same crap all the beginners here go through.


    if you don't like the fact that your stuff gets passed up, try harder. keep practicing and improving. i assure you that the people here are far less picky than the art directors and future employers out there. they'll tear you a new one with their harsh crits if you don't have your act together.

    honestly i know that i am of no level or caliber to be a professional in what i wish to do, yet. but i take the lack of attention i get as a form of motivation so i can push myself harder. not only does it help me in my day to day habits of drawing and exercises, but it also inspires me to observe more. observing the pro's around me, their work and technique. it really helps alot.

    to quote coro kaufman "people have been doing this stuff for hundreds of years. it's so much easier to see how other people are doing things than to try and figure it out on your own."


    i use quotes like that to inspire me, i suggest everyone should. it gives a concept to base your habits on. art is truly about making something that stands out, and the only way you're going to do that is to see how others do it, and then take some style from them and incorporate it into your own work and set a new standard. it's all about setting the standards.


    that's my view on the topic. it's a long climb to the top but it sure beats pushing a pencil or flipping burgers for the rest of my freakin' life

    anyways i'm off to draw, peace

  23. #22
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    I have to say Im on the fence on this issue.

    On one hand - I used surf CA Finshed section to have my mind blown 80% of the time. I would use those session as inspiration. No different than pickking up one of my Spectrum Annuals and looking for inspiration. Unfortunately word must have gotten out to the deviantart crew that this is the "cool" place to be. The finashed section is hardly inspiration anymore - only after spending an hour of your time sort through the "noob" art.

    On the other other hand - These forums are here so that we can learn and improve. Everyone can get better. I had one of my threads moved back when I really sucked bad and just like JTJ I cried a quick tear then just tried harder. I have gotten much better because of CA.

    The only solution I see is for the moderators to update the best of CA with new work weekly or daily if it applies so that people have an "inspiration" section to visit thats fresh. That way when any of the pros drop some magic on us we know where to look.

    Additionally the CA admins should hire like 40000+ new moderators and just move the "noob" art where it belongs in the crit section multiple times per day. Organizing and weeding could happen much quicker and everyone would have to step it up in order to stay in the finished section without getting "pwned" by the mod squad.

    I like commenting on middle school art and dropping a "wow, bad ass" to the pros but I just don't know what to say to the beginners. I think a lot of people here feel the same. Theres just too much of it and we all have limited time to participate.

    One other grip is that I wish they would lock the older threads that keep showing back up when you hit the finished section. I am looking for new stuff not Fosters kick ass piece from a year ago that I have already seen and commented on. At least 1 or 2 of those old 5 star threads keeps resurfacing everyday.

    It simply comes down to time for me - I used to love CA because you could slip in for 15 minutes and have your world rocked, now its like a commitment of an hour and then I just give up.

    Lets bring back the glory dayz : )

  24. #23
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    Just give the "good artists" a secret pass to post at the "good art section" (oh they have to earn them!)
    Somewhat elitist, but solves the problem we have now



    And we get an "inspiration place" like what se7en mentioned

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    This place is FOR EVERYONE! I'm not that great of an artist. I've recieved no training except for what I've learned here. I think I've improved alot since Joining here! At first I took the critiques hard but I've learned to take them. I really hope this place doesn't turn into eatpoo where if you aren't as good as the pros you aren't fit to post. This isn't like that here. This is a learning Community... at least that's what I've always thought it was? I could be wrong I suppose. I don't really know what to think at this point. I don't think seperating our works any more than they have will be a good thing though. It's discouraging if nothing less.
    My Sketchbook
    ^keep me going by visiting my sketchbook^

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuatheJames
    This isn't a place for wishful thinkers.

    This isn't a place for people thinking "There's always a tomorrow".
    Time for me to quote some poetry:

    Quote Originally Posted by TS Eliot
    Eyes that last I saw in tears
    Through division
    Here in death's dream kingdom
    The golden vision reappears
    I see the eyes but not the tears
    This is my affliction

    This is my affliction
    Eyes I shall not see again
    Eyes of decision
    Eyes I shall not see unless
    At the door of death's other kingdom
    Where, as in this,
    The eyes outlast a little while
    A little while outlast the tears
    And hold us in derision.
    I'd quote The Hollow Men as well, but it's too long. The point is, the "eyes" in that poem reperesent artistic inspiration. The "tears" represent the hard work, pain, and toil that must be endured in order for that dream to come to fruition. You must wee the eyes and see the tears, and accept them both. So Josh has hit it straight the hell on: If you don't like crap getting tossed in the helpful Srits section, make your crap better. If you disagree about what's crap, make your work so sharp in your own way that people can tell that it's great stuff. That's the only way to succeed in the art world.

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    I agree with the more moderators comments up there. Thats a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssenkrah Semaj
    That is no excuse for why you haven't posted your artwork. I found out today that kinkos only charges 30 cents per minute to use their scanners and I hope to have my artwork displayed by next week. You have no excuse to post your artwork and should not




    Also your opinions seem too drastic and would discourage alot of people from posting their artwork. This site has inspired me to great heights to contirbute my artwork and truly be apart of this community.

    The CA community as I see it is filled with both professionals and amateurs alike and the fact that both post in the same forums is what I think makes CA truly great. To take that away because of someones dislike over seeing art that varies in quality would be a very selfish thing to do.

    what is a kinkos? seriously, tell me plz
    okay okay anyway you are right i have to organize a scanner soon

    and i think you got me wrong on some issues.. i wouldnt have started this thread if i would have expected some sort of flamewar starting with people spamming all over the floor. i LOVE these forums and will always love them.
    of course this is also a place for art newbs. thats what makes this place unique. this is absolutely no elitist community where there are only design students and / or professionals and the sort of. in many ways the professionals and not so professionals help those who are struggling the hardest. and thats great!
    i also was a total newb but these forums helped me greatly and inspired me to no end.

    xpose:
    of course this is a learning community. but i think eatpoo is not an ELITIST forum either. its just when you post really shitty art there your thread will eventually be closed with an explanation on what things you should definitely work on RIGHT now.
    getting crits is always but until you reached a certain degree of basic learning experience (like doing some stil lifes, learning about perspective and so on) by yourself, the crits you get will always be the same, i.e. "practice more, draw more from life, draw exactly what you see"
    so i basically think too many members just keep on posting here, and disregarding that everyone tells them these exact phrases, they keep on posting their deviantart photoshop filter orgies all over again.
    okay, once again, strong example, maybe a bit drastic. but seriously, i have seen enough threads like this in the last time.

    cartoonfox:
    good ideas, valid points.
    the best of ca forum should really be updated more often especially because there have been just too many good threads during the last time.

    eew: totally agree with you on every point

    android: word!

    klinesmoker: also some very valid points. all the pros who post here get the major attention.. partially because their art is so mindblowing good, partially because their names are well known around these forums.
    i think the crit week was a great idea because i actually posted about 15-20 crits in the helpful crits section and tried the best i could.

    se7en:
    yeah i also hate it when those year old threads get dug up by some newb and then about 20 more people start posting liek "omg you are teh god your art is awesome0rz"... aaanyway, yeah, you are probably right about this "there's just too much of those beginners"..

    and THAT's why I started this thread.. because this sudden influx of art beginners has just taken over kinda.. not that there ARE so many of them but that all of them start posting in the wrong subsections.. dont read any of the faqs, dig up WAY old threads and so on..


    oh, and please dont take any of that personally or something

  29. #28
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    we are all equal here in the forums. it is just the matter of following the rules.

  30. #29
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    I guess I'm still not really seeing a problem here. You don't have to comment, and nor should you expect an overflow of comments. But remember that the world operates on balance. If you critique, even the worst piece you've ever seen, you will recieve similair pay-off. So what if there are "noobs." Really, so they post something not so great, just don't worry about it! Man, it seems to me that a lot of people want the payoff of getting attention without the work necessary. For my part, I WILL find a way to get employed at Massive Black because I have the drive to do so. But I also realize that it takes work on my part. I just want everyone to remember that.
    He who asks is a fool for five minutes,
    but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

    Starting over.

  31. #30
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    there is no such thing as bad art ,it's one's own visual expression and should be looked as such. partically here.
    One eye sees, the other feels.
    ---Paul Klee
    one artist studio
    my sketchbook

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