I had written something quite long but then everything crashed so here's a summary:
The recent fascism thread has started a heated debate which quickly turned to brawl and people have taken things personally and threatened to leave. I was sad to read such negative resopones and in light of this situation I invite you all to read carefully the following link and take a deep, long breath and think.
The information in this link is only the introduction to a broader view on america a lot of people seem to share internationally.
There is a view on america that the majority of the americans are unaware about but is comonly shared by other countries, I think many of the european mates on this forums know exactly what I'm talking about.
Do not respond to this thread with insults, threats, or negative commentary of any kind, I have no intention in starting a discussion to see "who wins". Whateve you say is a result of the way you think and that is not something that is going to change by a few rethorics you or I post.
All I ask, is that you take some time to consider things.
WOW! You cracked the case, Sherlock!
Your hypocrtical article revealed.....stupid people think stupid stuff!
I self-published a book on the fundamentals of drawing from life.
I knew it was coming.....like a moth to a flame....though Jetpack might be the flame in this case.
And for the record that article is extreme...and i'm a liberal.
-Call me Semaj for short.
What I dont get is why you need to be so violent.
This was not done in bad faith whatsoever, yet insults are just negative.
But I'm gonna answer to you because I suspected the last lines of what I wrote could cause confusion. Its not hypocritical because I include myself as well, whatever I say is a result of what I think, the same as you, the same as everyone, and neither my view will change nor yours from posting insults and rethorics. I know it may not seem clear in the way I wrote it, so I'm re-stating it now.
Please, try not to take this personaly, this is not an attack or an insult to you or anyone, its just something to think about, calmly.
There is no need for insults.
Come to my Island where there is no time for arguing...... just art !
But seriously. I think chauvinism (as defined as extreme devotion to the point of unhealthy obsession) is inherent in any kind of order even if it isn't in a rule book somewhere. It can become a dangerous thing. It's simply not human nature to stand by and let someone criticize our behavior or interest. Our reactions are usually just for the sake of defense. True dialog rarely even enters the mix since people are more interested in puffing themselves up and butting heads. That last political thread illustrates that pretty clearly.
Well Broken, I enjoyed the article. I dont completely agree with it but it has its points.
It saddens me too, to see how many people blow their top when it comes to politics, beliefs, faiths, and who is more powerful discussions. Its as if someones very exsistence is on the line.
Every country has their problems. Every country has their good sides too. Every country has people... there are bad and good people out there and to put up a fence around one nation and point a finger is DAMN broad indeed. To point a finger at a nations President and TRULY believe he represents that country is very sad. I dislike it when people judge my country by my President. I'd say a good 99% of this country would not mind to have a more cultured, intelligent, flawless leader... but its not going to happen. He's human. What Bush does reflects my country but I can only do so much about it.
Now place me in another country with a bunch of people who hate me for being American, some places, they would probably flat out blast me for it. It just blows my mind that people can be so hateful.
Enough of the hate people... its so old now.
It is indeed entirely wrong to judge individuals based on their country's actions, but we should really be asking what's been done in our names to provoke such strong responses. I'm guessing it has something to do with selectively supporting dictatorships when convenient (Saddam and Pinochet spring to mind).Originally Posted by SquaredS
I dont think people in other countries hate americans or the united states nations, what is looked down upon is what pissant has said: americas attitude to the rest of the world, particularly, the support (and enforcement through military training) of dictatorships.
You mention Pinochet. That happened in Chile. It was absolutely brutal. Argentina and other countries suffered from dictatorships as well.
During the dictatorship in Argentina a lot of people from my parent's generation died or ended up "missing" (a term here for people who's body was never found).
Both my mom and my dad lost a lot of friends during that time. My mom remembers how they were at the university having lunch and all of the sudden soldiers would enter and take people away and you never heard from them again, or they showed up after being terribly beaten, raped, and tortured. Luckily nothing ever happened to my mom but her best friend was killed at that time.
My dad was beaten up on the street and taken to a departure just because he got caught up at work one day and broke curfew by a few minutes walking back to his house. Luckily they didn't kill him.
There are thousands of people still "missing" in Argentina today, same thing happened in Chile with Pinochet.
But support of military dictatorships and its enforcement, like I said, is not the main issue. Its the foreign policy behind that (imperialism) and the cultural attitude which is a consecuence of such policies (believing to be supperior to Canadians, Russians, French, etc, not to mention Africa Asia and South America) from which many non-american countries have formed the opinion that the american general populace live in a country whose own information media does little to inform the atrocities being commited in non-american countries in their nations name, due to foreing policies.
Last edited by brokk; March 18th, 2005 at 06:37 PM.
I'm not saying we Americans aren't chauvinistic, but that article did a pretty lame job of proving it. It was full of assertions supported by generalizations and random anecdotes. Definitely not pulitzer material. "Americans feel that they had to rescue England and France, not once, but twice during the 20th century." As far as I know, they WANTED our help. We didn't force it on 'em. Amazing that he's trying to turn that into chauvinism...
Concept Artist, Tencent Boston
yea, i'm pretty liberal, but i like to be without storng opinions on matters i really don't understand thouroughly, especially matters of a country i don't live in
many americans are chauvinistic, but so are many brits and uk'ers, also the french can be so chauvinistic it isn't funny. the us isn't the only country with die-hard supporters , every country has its conservatives.
this article is just one person writing about their disgust with america's apparent arrogance, but we aren't the only ones
I'm echoing injection223 here. I think it's a natural habit to think that the way you were raised is "how it should be," especially since it's the only upbringing you have. Thus people in the US tend to think the US is best, and it wouldn't surprise me if people in other countries felt the same way about themselves. I feel that pride/chauvinism every time I hear about my old karate school expanding membership, with my football team winning a game, or with graduates from my school being successful. I think the whole chauvinism thing is mainly about 2 human yearnings: to be part of something greater than themselves, and to be right. Our upbringing is part of who we are, and I'd say most of us don't want to think that we wasted whole parts of our lives. We wanna be right, and if someone tells us what we want to hear, it's easy to listen to it. Since we're kind of isolated from the world, it's easier to ignore the people who say what we don't wanna hear.
Why don't we hear about atrocities across the world? 'Cause we don't want to. It's the same reason we don't have much in the way of informative political debate. We want entertainment, so that's what the media gives us: useless info on celebrities and the loudest, most eccentric political figures we can find. That's why we hear from Ann Coulter and Michael Moore instead of Naom Chomsky or Howard Zinn. We don't want to hear about horrible stuff in places we've never been to, so the media spends its time on the sensational stores that, in the end, make money for them.
My 2 cents. Not pence, francs, or deutschmarks, but cents. (It'd be so hilariously american if I misspelled some of those, and it's especially american that I couldn't give a crap.)
Concept Artist, Tencent Boston
this kind of discussion is best had on other websites. If you want to express yourself politically then do it artistically. Put some art in the politics. The lounge is not for fighting and political battles.
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