Work Ethics....
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  1. #1
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    Work Ethics....

    I have a situation at work where I am asked to use my artistic skills to render out some corporate business mans feelings and emotions, so the consultants in my company, can better understand his needs and better service him. (I hope this makes sense)
    My position at work is Illustrator. I also do mundane stuff like charts, maps, and small graphics.

    Where do you draw the line, when you are asked to do something you do not agree with?
    We get it everyday anyway, but thatís work you know you can do, it matches your skills; is actually used in editorial, web, or poster format; a character concept; a magazine; 3D Design... etc etc.

    What I am being asked to do, is psycho-analyse our consultants client, using picture format. ie - I am given questions, I go into a room with the client and ask him "how do you feel the relationship between you and your staff is? Lets say, your work life is like a ski slope, and your going down the ski slope but there are obsticles in the way - who/what are those obsticles? Shall we label them? blah blah blah"
    I then 'draw' a picture over the 2 hr meet with the client, which establishes his feelings then give that to the consultants, who then go back into the room, look at the picture and talk to the client to better understand his needs. The client would be paying around £400 - £500 ($900 apprx) for the 2hr meeting. The picture will NOT be used for anything, no editorial, no nuthin. The style they expect is a cheap cartoon.

    Basically, we as a company are 'selling' a service to the client to better understand how we can service his needs.
    The client will be paying for a meeting that will establish how much more money we (as a company) can squeeze out of him. Now, for the client to actually go for the idea and pay the money is their problem and quite an achievement on our half.

    BUT I dont like the idea, I think it shite. I did not get my illustration job to go fucking analysing some corporate businessmans head because the cuntsultants in my company cant fucking relate to THEIR client. Its a money making scheme, that uses me to get more money out of the client, when I know the cuntsultants skills could be used elsewhere in the company that so badly need it.

    I am so fuming because the consultants in question did not ask my opinion before contacting the client about the meeting. I am fucking fuming, because the consultant in question did not take time to look at the client work I have already done for the company which would of given them an idea of how I work, the different styles I can work in etc etc.

    I hate consultants enough as it is, because all they know is how to create situations to generate more money for themselves. What they donít know, is how that money is actually made.

    Your opinions pleaseÖ.

    (BTW - spammers - if your reading this FUCK OFF you waste of fucking space!)

    Mollyx

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  2. #2
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    I hope they dont know you are posting here .

    Sounds like an interesting task.
    Just do it your own way as much as you can(I mean what can they expect if they didnt look at your work and neither talked to you about it), If they dont like it, they prolly wont ask you again.
    But what do I know... I'm just a student.

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    Not only does this sound like a pretty difficult thing to do accurately, it sounds like a very bad idea from a business standpoint (unless you can actually make money, which is the ultimate litmus, I guess). Unless trained to take psychoanalytical observations, you donít want someone to categorize a personís feelings, especially someone trained to make them look convincing. It is natural to lay our own film of experiences, preconceived notions, and perceptions over what is happening in the real world. Few people are trained to make a detailed situational analysis of language (the words someone uses in a particular set of circumstances), and so, the product will be biased in several different ways:
    Client- Relationship with consultant, company, and similar companies; the personís basic character (e.g. optimist, pessimist), the type of day theyíre having, life stressors, perceived value of process, reaction to the artist (if you get him salivating, that might send the wrong message)
    Artist- All of above can affect the artist, plus the perception on the client's biases above
    Consultant- Once again, all of the above, but they now have a picture, so they have to analyze another personís analysis.

    This seems about one of the most useless exercises I can think of in an effort to better client-consultant relationships (as it will not do anything to make the consultant more sensitive to the clientís needs). If you want to make the consultant more responsive to the client, have them sit together for the two hours. You can do life studies of both of them and make them feel good.

    I could probably go on, as perception and reality is a pet subject, but suffice to say, this is not a good idea. Iím not sure how you can go about telling Alfred Einsteen that E does not equal MC Hammer, but you might want to go about it by asking to do it with him and a regular employee first. Iím also thinking that a client who would like this exercise is rather narcissistic.

    Good luck. Iíd like to hear how this turns out.

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    he he, nice funny situation you got going on here
    weird as well, I guess that if were asked to do such
    a thing ill would say no, I dont think It would be a
    very successful excersise anyway, they should hire a psychologist to make
    this kinda of studies, If were asked the first thing I would say
    is that I am not qualified to analize the mind of some one,
    and make any sort of judemet about it, so yep I prolly
    would turn down this kinda of work, if you were not hired as
    a psychologist-drawing combo, then they should get some else
    to make their dirty work.

    Last edited by maxetormer; March 5th, 2005 at 11:30 AM.
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    Molly,

    your boss is asking an artist to do the work of a psychologist so you have good reason to feel uncomfortable. Since I am assuming that you do not have a background or training in psychology, how could they possibly expect you to know how to interpret what you witness? Sounds like your company is just being cheap as they don't want to pay for the services of a real psychologist. This exercise actually sounds a bit unethical because your company's client is not getting the expert information they are paying for.

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    Hmm...what would I do... Know it is bullshit, don't give a crap, play the game without getting sucked into it, take these suckers for what thier worth. If your work is generating more money, demand more pay. Take advantage of other people's ignorant positions, especially when they have no shame taking advantage of others. Not caring to the point where you can take or leave it basically puts you in a position where you have leverage, take advantage of that.

    In the end you can use that $$ to help put you in a position where you don't have to deal with these corporate assholes. If you need to get something off your chest, secretly incorporate some subversive meanings into the work you give them. Raise hell under the radar, it doesn't sound like these are the types of people who pick up on artistic nuances.

    In summary, make it a game, use your disgust as leverage, and work things to your benefit. If after all that this still irks you, drop the whole thing and tell them that your paticular set of skills is better utilized elsewhere.

    (Of course, all this is assuming that you can drop the project without screwing yourself in the long term.)

    Last edited by StrangeAlchemist; March 5th, 2005 at 02:02 PM.
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    Hey Molly-wolly-smoochie-poos

    Myself, I tend to be a bit on the mercenary side. If they're paying me money, I don't usually give a damn, so long as I deem the amount paid worth my time.

    However, I do have ethics. So I don't step over certain lines. These lines are different for everyone. When I read this, my first thought was that this could actually be a lot of fun, for you and the client. I'd just get goofy and have a blast.

    However, the part that soured it for me was the fact that you were not appraised of the situation before hand. That wasn't right.

    Now, if it turns out that this is something that you feel strongly about, which obviously you do, address it with your boss. But it needs to be weighed against other factors as well - what's your relationship within the company? Can you throw your weight around and flatly refuse on principal without losing your job? Can you vocally object to how this was handled, but concede enough to work with them?

    It's a delicate balance. If it turns out that this is absolutely something you can not do, will not do, and will have absolutely *nothing* to do with, are you prepared to quit? I've had to do that before. Sometimes it takes something that severe (or the threat there-of) before the people in charge realize that they are going the wrong way. I don't believe in silently standing by, unless I'm handing out the rope to hang the bastards with

    Good luck with this, and let us know how it pans out.

    ~Shane


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    btw, Figure2, your avatar freaks the hell out of me.


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    My first thought was for you to do the job, earn the money, then pay some kids to trash the consultants car. However, i must admit that the others advice are a lot better.

    I hope it works out for you. I hate doing things i consider stupid or unethical, but if the money is right it's damn hard to do the right thing..

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    btw, Figure2, your avatar freaks the hell out of me.
    Why thank you.

    This is actually a digital painting of a Thai or Balinese ceremonial mask, part of a collection of carved heads & masks I call my "Ugly Heads." I noticed this mask in a small import store my wife & I visited and thought it kind of looked like me. When I placed my glasses on the mask and showed my wife, her laughter convinced me it needed to come home with us. It is proudly displayed in my studio though I usually wear the glasses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by figure2
    Why thank you.

    This is actually a digital painting of a Thai or Balinese ceremonial mask, part of a collection of carved heads & masks I call my "Ugly Heads." I noticed this mask in a small import store my wife & I visited and thought it kind of looked like me. When I placed my glasses on the mask and showed my wife, her laughter convinced me it needed to come home with us. It is proudly displayed in my studio though I usually wear the glasses.
    LOL, that's great. I love it. Masks are great. My wife has a couple of photos of a mask store in Italy - mask for Madre Gras (sp?) that I tried to do a painting of a few years back (pre-digital). Some fantastic stuff there. I'd love to see a larger pic of your painting sometime

    Cheers,
    ~S


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    Oregano,

    I actually did the artwork as my business card art. I am posting an enlarged version of the card below. There isn't much more to the image than what you see. It is a 2-sided card so more of my contact info is on the back.

    Oh Jeez, Molly! We were supposed to be talking about Molly's problem. I hope we answered your question



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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by figure2
    Oregano,

    I actually did the artwork as my business card art. I am posting an enlarged version of the card below. There isn't much more to the image than what you see. It is a 2-sided card so more of my contact info is on the back.

    Oh Jeez, Molly! We were supposed to be talking about Molly's problem. I hope we answered your question
    ah well, nothing like hijacking a thread. My sincere apologies Molly. Please forgive me

    I *love* that card, Figure2. Thats gotta be one of the best business cards I've seen.

    Okay, now back to regularly scheduled programming

    Last edited by S.C. Watson; March 5th, 2005 at 04:29 PM.

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    This is a hard one.......I just wouldn't do it, I mean if you feel strongly about it then don't do it. Let your consultant find another person, just let them know you have your reasons. This situation is kinda like when my uncle wanted me to work at a casino because they make alot of money being a dealer. My ethics were I didn't like taking people's money away, cause those money are usually from husband's that uses their bill money to gamble, and have witness alot of this from my uncle, and many other people. This being one of the reason why he's divorced. It's just hard to see money that could be used for something else taken away, and especially by me....I would feel so bad about it.

    Are you allowed to talk to the client about the project, maybe get some feedback or even tell him how you feel about the whole thing? Don't want to really get in you trouble with your company though. Hope this gives you some insight.

    "If you only heard one side of the story, then you must be deaf in the other ear." - Sok N. Wett

    Sok's Sketchbook Thread Last Updated November 25
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    Are you allowed to talk to the client about the project, maybe get some feedback or even tell him how you feel about the whole thing? Don't want to really get in you trouble with your company though. Hope this gives you some insight.
    I would highly recommend against this. Clients should never be put in the middle of internal disputes or disagreements. A better solution would be for Molly to email a memo to her boss stating her concerns. If she feels she does not have the expertise to evaluate aonther person's thoughts or state of mind by just sitting in a metting with them, her boss should know that. This way she leaves a paper trail. If the situation ever turns ugly she will be able to show that she was not part of any conspiracy to defraud the client by providing less than expert data.

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    Figure2 your icon is scary ass hell....lol, but yeah Molly what he said....it makes more sense that way.

    "If you only heard one side of the story, then you must be deaf in the other ear." - Sok N. Wett

    Sok's Sketchbook Thread Last Updated November 25
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    i think ur looking to much into it, its just a drawing and ur getting paid to do it, thats ur job, not everything you do you will agree with but the world is run with money so you have to look at it from the perspective of a business person.

    Nathan Campbells 3 steps to drawing like a pro, 1. Sketch 2. shade. 3. highlights and ur done
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    Gasmask,

    I think you are missing the point. This is not just a drawing. Molly's boss has asked her to create a psychological profile of her company's client in the form of a drawing, something I sense Molly doesnt feel qualified to do. This profile which will then be passed on to other consulting companies which will attempt to sell the client services that may not be appropriate.

    This is wrong on several levels. First, since Molly is doing the evaluation she should be compensated better (like that's going to happen). I don't pretend to know what a consulting psychologist would charge but based on the level of education needed and the specialized expertise, it would be a whole lot more than an artist would make. Her cheapskate company will be pocketing a hefty profit out of this little scam. Second, Molly sounds like an ethical person and doesn't like the idea of her company cheating their client by charging for a psychological evaluation and then sending in an artist to do the work.

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    but the point is is nothing is always ethical, its business and thats how it is, who cares if she isnt a phycologist, these situations happen time and time again to everyone, i mean you can always quit, but what good is that going to do? they will get someone else to do it. its the way of the world. on another not one way to approach the problem could be to tell the boss of ur possible problems with this sort of thing, im sure any reasonable person would respect ur concerns but im sure uve already taken care of what u think is the best way to go about it.

    Nathan Campbells 3 steps to drawing like a pro, 1. Sketch 2. shade. 3. highlights and ur done
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    Gasmask, your statement seems to suggest that you don't understand why morals or ethics would have any place in business or or life in general. If that's true then I guess I can pretty much understand your point of view. I don't agree with it but I understand why you would say what you said.

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    oh dont get me wrong, i understand where morals and ethics come into play but what im saying is not everyone is going to follow those guidelines in this case, the company wants to do something un ethical so it seems, so thats pretty common from what ive seen in business these days, thats all im saying

    Nathan Campbells 3 steps to drawing like a pro, 1. Sketch 2. shade. 3. highlights and ur done
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    Thanx ALL for your replies.

    Gasmask - I see where your coming from, there are no ethics in business and yes, it happens everyday. Thats why I am making a stand on this and refusing to do it. The consultant in question, has not bothered to look at my work, or talk to my manager about it either, he just assumed I'd do it. They can sack me if they want, but what good would that do on their half? Im the only illustrator in the company, and I'll sue 'em for unfair dismissal. They can freelance this shit out to someone else for all I care, because I know that other person will get tens times more money out of it than me. I am making no extra money out of this They are charging the client, none of that goes to me.

    These situations happen all the time yes I know. But I'm not going to stand by and let it happen to me.
    If they want to understand their client more, either the consultants take a course in management, or take the client out for fucking dinner, get him pissed and he'll open up all right...

    I have a meeting today about this crap.....

    Mollyx

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    Rock on!

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    Hey Molly, good luck with this!
    ~Shane


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    ...or take the client out for fucking dinner, get him pissed and he'll open up all right...
    Molly,

    With a suggestion like that, I think you have what it takes to be a consultant!

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    HAHAHAHA - Figure2, me a consultant? hehe, no, I have a life..(great avatar btw)

    Well, I had the meeting and this time the resourcing manager sat in with me.
    It went well. The cuntsultant listened, to a point. I was very frank about my opinions and the overall outcome of the whole exercise. I asked again if the sketches/final piece would be used for anything at all, and again I was told no.
    The whole frigging idea came about, because the consultant wanted to try another way of getting the client to open up. He felt a 'visual' approach to finding out what the client wants would help him better understand their needs. I said why dont you just ask him, after all, you know him well.....

    We came to a deal. I was to try this technique on staff members here, to see "how it goes" then arrange another meeting with the client.
    I could refuse to do it all together; or I give it a go to save future possiblities.

    Thanx fellas for yor replies

    Mx

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    Molly,

    I think the idea of getting the client drunk to loosen him up still has some merit. Maybe when you try this experiment on your co-workers you should turn it into a drinking game

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    LOL get them drunk......well hope things go well with you Molly.

    "If you only heard one side of the story, then you must be deaf in the other ear." - Sok N. Wett

    Sok's Sketchbook Thread Last Updated November 25
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