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  1. #1
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    Kids telling lies is good for you and them

    http://family.msn.com/tool/article.a...c_110504_lying

    bullshit radar going wild.

    insisting on the truth encourages lying?

    "In the long run, the most effective solution is to try to discern what message the child is trying to convey with his lie." wtf?

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  3. #2
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    Stupid advice for incompetent parents.

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  4. #3
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    Es fließt durch meine Venen, Es schläft in meinen Tränen
    Es läuft mir aus den Ohren, Herz und Nieren sind Motoren

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  5. #4
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    [reversed the order of my post so that it makes sense contextually to the previous posts]
    On telling lies:
    Back to topic... As for the lying; both of my boys have lied. And it's pretty easy to catch them in it. I don't encourage it, and they've both ended up in the corner for it. I've turned it around and have lied to them to show how it ends up hurting, and have made sure they understood what I was doing and why (they knew I was telling a lie). Most lies a kids starts out with are harmless shifts of responsibility, and easy to catch. As it is, we don't have a problem with it. We keep our relationship open with our kids, and because of this, they tell us the truth. Conversely, we always tell them the truth. A good example is they both know there is no such thing as Santa, or the Easter Bunny. I believe that you have to set the example for the child in order for them to have a proven pattern to refer to for their own lives. If you don't, they will adopt whatever pattern is the strongest.

    I skimmed the article. I didn't see anything outrageous. Maybe I missed it. But whatever. Kids lie. They lie young. They either learn that it's not a good idea. or an effective tool to get what they want. It depends on how the parent deals with it. My youngest tells whoppers. He's five. You can always tell with him. I make a joke out of it, and it's not a big deal. When he tries to tell a lie to get out of something, he's caught and it's explained why it's wrong (shirking responsibility for something) and it's dealt with. Kids need to reminding again, and again, and again, and again, and again about things. I wish it was deal with it once and that's it, but it's not. Everything needs reinforcing and consistancy.

    Bleh. I should start a coloumn

    ~Oreg^2
    ---
    On physicaly disciplining children: (originally posted first)

    You know, I doubt seriously anyone who's posted here yet is a parent.

    I am. I've got two boys, 7 and 5. I've never beat them, spanked them or ever raised my hand to intentionally "discipline" them in their lives. There was the one time that my eldest, all of 3 and half at the time did try to bite my nose in a fit of rage, and he did get smacked across the face, but not as disciplinary action. It was to keep my nose intact. (little kid teeth are SHARP! )

    I got spanked, slapped, grounded, thrown across the room, yelled at, thumped, put down, grounded, put in my place, delt with, and any other form of "discipline" you can care to imagine.

    I hated my dad for it. It wasn't until the year before my dad died that we were able to make peace. I'm glad that I did have the chance, but I often think of all the years that were wasted because of the "discipline" I was taught to loathe. To this day, I still hate how he treated me. I don't thank him. He was an abusive. I understand now some of the reasons, but to me, that doesn't excuse what he did, it merely provides an explanation.

    In my opinion, spanking is child abuse. There's no reason that I can fathom for ever beating your kids. If you have a violent child, look at the way you are parenting. Are you involved with your kids, or do you shove them aside? How do you treat them? Do you treat them like friends or someone you would rather not be around?

    Do you really like creating animosity between yourself and your child? Do you enjoy them *fearing* you? Because that's what happens. Violence perpetuates itself.

    I could go on, but seriously. If there's a problem with the kid, the first place you need to look is in the mirror.

    Don't get me wrong, I've felt like beating the hell out of my kids sometimes. I've wanted to. I've put my hand through the wall in my frustration with them. But I've *never* hit them. It's much, much harder to control your anger, your frustration with the little shit and talk to them and explain why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing.

    Raising your hand against someone who is a quarter your size is just sick. And a cop-out. If you need to go beat on someone because you are that frustrated, go down to the bar and pick a fight with someone your own size.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    ~Oreg.

    Last edited by S.C. Watson; December 9th, 2004 at 05:07 PM.

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    Oregano, you're right about the physical aspect, but as far i understood the article, it talks about making lying socially acceptable to your kids...

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    Just edited my post. Punched submit before I was ready


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  8. #7
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    this is off topic, but i agree with you Oregano, to a point.

    I was spanked as a kid, but not in excess. To be honest, I'm glad now that I was. I needed it as a kid. (Don't take that literally, my parents employed a wide range of tactics to raise me right, I got what I deserved). But kids and parents are all different.

    To me, parenting (among many other things) is alot like art. There isn't a set "right" or "wrong" way to go about it, and different techniques produce different results all the time, but I know bad art when I see it. The above article is one such example.

    I'm not a parent, but I've got a brother 12 years my younger I've had a small hand in raising. Kids ARE a pain in the ass.

    edit: You're right on Oregano. The parts of the article where it's advising that "lying is natural, you've just got to let them grow out of the phase" type of stuff...thats crap. I got the jist that they were employing the mentality that "the more you tell them no, the more they want to do it", which, true in some aspects of life, but really not with kids. They need to be taught right and wrong.

    Active parenting is underrated. props Oregano.

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    1) I was joking. Nobody links to Maddox and isn't joking. Except sickos like me. Wait...

    2) You're not talking about discipline Oregano, you're talking about child abuse.

    He was an abusive
    If you need to go beat on someone because you are that frustrated, go down to the bar and pick a fight with someone your own size.
    Beating up your kids out of general frustration IS NOT discipline. Discipline is a quick smack to let them know they've done wrong, and that there are consequences to their actions. My parents beat me, but by beat I don't mean they punched me shitless or crap like that. That's abuse. Discipline is punishing your child for something extreme with an appropriately extreme measure, like a stinging slap to the face. Thats all I ever got. I can count the times I've been "beaten" on one hand, and they were all the same: a slap to the face. Short, sweet, and to the point. I understood immediately that I had done something wrong, that I had payed for it, and that I could have avoided it, and the following conversation cleared up the point. I don't feel bitter about it, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be an option for others. In fact I'm glad that I got hit a few times. If I had grown up with lax disciplinary standards that some of my classmates "enjoyed" I'd probably be a little shit like them.

    Come to think of it, our society seems to be suffering from the "little shit" plague more and more, considering the generation a few years below me. Probably has to do with less disciplinary action. Because it's oh so wrong.

    BTW, I in no way connect the "little shit" thing to you Oregano, in case you thought I was taking a stab at you. I was just commenting on something I noticed. People have gotten afraid of disciplining their kids, which started with the drift away from beatings. Now some people don't even stand up to their kids, when all they need is a smack upside the head, and an "stfu and listen".

    I also don't in any way deny the need for being able to verbally discipline your kids. That stuff goes without saying.

    Last edited by dfacto; December 9th, 2004 at 05:53 PM.

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  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    1) I was joking. Nobody links to Maddox and isn't joking. Except sickos like me. Wait...
    Oh, I know. I'm sorry. I just sort of ranted when I shouldn't have, but decided to let it stand, because, well. You know. I've got issues. Someone hand me a candle and a name tag, dammit
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    2) You're not talking about discipline Oregano, you're talking about child abuse.
    Well, since I inadvertently hijacked the thread with my own compmlexes, actually, yes and no. See the thing of it is that the two are awfully damn close. If you confronted my dad about it, after he got through telling you it wasn't any of your "gaddam business" he would tell you that he wasn't abusive at all. That he was a very loving father and cared very much for me and my sister. See, I didn't get punished for anything that I didn't deserve to get punished for. He didn't just walk up to me and start swinging.

    I'd do something that I wasn't supposed to do, argue, get into something, lie, whatever, and depending on what I did, I got a smack across the mouth, or the belt across the butt. But it happened a lot. Consistancy? maybe. I don't know. But too often the discipline would spiral. I remember one time I got into an argument with my mom, and I left the house in frustration. When I got home, my dad met me at the door, told my friend to leave (I'd completely forgotten the incident at this point) gave me what for. Started by throwing me across the room.

    I *know* some people can work it into their lifestyles and parenting techniques without letting it get out of control. And that's good, I'm very glad that they can. But at the same time, why even incorporate it to begin with? Most of the time it's a frustration vent for the parent. Yes, I know, it set's limits for the child. I understand all the pro-psychobable why it's supposed to be a good thing for them. But my point is that it is, in my opinion, entirely unnecessary.

    I'm not going to get up on a soap box and preach and say "Thou Shalt Not" because I know I'm in the minority, and most will tell me that it was a good thing for them. Glad to hear it, really.

    But think about it when you go to discipline your kids when you have them. I mean, really. Are you really punishing them for something they've done, or are you venting your own frustration at them for having disrupted your day and caused a problem for you?

    Truth be told, for a long time I didn't think of it as abuse. I really didn't. I didn't see it that way and really didn't think any thing of it. I even said that I was glad that my parents treated me the way they did. It wasn't until I got married and had kids of my own that I really thought about what was at work in the process. I don't know. It's just for me my two guys are the greatest in the world. And every time I have to confront them over something (and I'm the *serious* disciplinarian in the house, trust me. I don't take crap for nothing), I just feel like hell. It's hard on my kids, because they push so damn hard, and it's hard on me, because I don't budge without a seriously good reason.

    I suppose I could smack them everytime they mouth off and call me a "poopy-butt-head" (yes, I've actually been called that... *sigh*) or worse, but what's the point? I have days where we go head to head from the time we get up to the time they're in bed (remember, my wife and I homeschool them, so it can be a looooong day).

    We have yelling matches, and the whole bit. But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Beating up your kids out of general frustration IS NOT discipline.
    You're right. But as I mentioned above, why smack them in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Discipline is a quick smack to let them know they've done wrong, and that there are consequences to their actions.
    It's easier to smack then to explain. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    My parents beat me, but by beat I don't mean they punched me shitless or crap like that. That's abuse.
    You're right. Mine didn't punch me either. Abuse is often a little more subtle than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Discipline is punishing your child for something extreme with an appropriately extreme measure, like a stinging slap to the face. Thats all I ever got. I can count the times I've been "beaten" on one hand, and they were all the same: a slap to the face. Short, sweet, and to the point. I understood immediately that I had done something wrong, that I had payed for it, and that I could have avoided it, and the following conversation cleared up the point.
    That's good. And to be honest, I got a lot of that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    I don't feel bitter about it, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be an option for others. In fact I'm glad that I got hit a few times. If I had grown up with lax disciplinary standards that some of my classmates "enjoyed" I'd probably be a little shit like them.
    The funny thing is that I'm not talking about being lax. I'm tallking about not being abusive. Physically striking another person is abuse. Period. Try smacking a co-worker to make a point and see how far it gets you. No, I'm serious. Try it.

    Now, if you won't smack a co-worker, why in the hell would you smack your kid?

    What I am talking about is firmly standing your ground without resorting to violence. (Smacking = violence).
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Come to think of it, our society seems to be suffering from the "little shit" plague more and more, considering the generation a few years below me. Probably has to do with less disciplinary action. Because it's oh so wrong.
    I don't know. Most of those kids are pretty well spanked and punished physcially from what I've seen. But that's my own personal take on things. And remember, I've got issues, dude. Issues LOL

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg. <- still looking for his name tag and candle


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    Jetpack: I've read the article and I can't find where they say you've just got to let them grow out of the phase" type of stuff.
    As I understand the article the say qoute "While lying is a normal aspect of growing up, that does not mean it should be dismissed." Meaning lying is natural.. don't get mad, you as a parent has to work all the time to learn the kid that lying is wrong.
    They suggests the following strategies: model behavior your kid wont do what you say he/she will do what you do in the end. Give your child structure and routine in the home will make the child more secure e.g read goodnight stories every night, limit the time your child may watch the telly. If the child feel secure it will tell the truth more often since lies often comes out of fear of punishment such as the "five across the eye" (read dfacto link ...ok I know it's a joke).Point out the logical consequences of lying e.g by telling the story about the lying boy and the wolf.
    If the child lies make sure they pay the consequences in a way that the child knows it's beacause he/she has lied as in the example "require the child to inform his teacher that he hasn't been giving the notes to his parents and that he is sorry. He can then ask for another note to bring home" You of course already know what's going to be in that letter since you talked with the teacher but the child can't really lie to the teacher about the notes... He lied out of guilt in the first place and making him do this will be like a slap in the face. This is one of the ways to make the child take responsibility for his/hers lies. "the most effective solution is to try to discern what message the child is trying to convey with his lie" As I understand it: If you know why your kid is lying it's easier to put an end to the lies.... you might not have clear structure at home.... beat your kid up... stuff that will make your child insecure... afraid of punishment. If the kid is to be beaten up for whats in the note anyway you will be sure he will lie it's only logical, knowing the reason of the lie will make your long term strategies such as creating a secure enviroment and learning the kid that lying is wrong better and of course in conjunction with the short term strategy stated in the example.

    dfacto: WHen I was really little like five years old i stole some darts at the supermarket. I had been trying to hide them and lying about them but my parents found out and forced me to return the them to the supermarket. I still remember this... a slap in the face would be like Paradise compared to what they forced me to do...shit I still remembers it with fear. I'm against parents hitting their children, but on the other hand forcing them to listen or grabbing them so they wont run away until they cool down so you can talk is ok - hitting them is wrong.

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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    Kids ARE a pain in the ass.
    If there is ONE THING in the universe that's true, that is it!
    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    Active parenting is underrated. props Oregano.
    thanks man. Sorry about hijacking the thread...

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg.


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    msn misinformation dept.

    The people who write this crap (the story in question) are so full of it. I have a hotmail account and I see this sort of thing EVERY time i log in to it. Sometimes MSN's headlines get to me and I click on the links, only to feel a profound emptiness afterward--it's a total sham... Headlines like "Lying is good for kids" are 110% tabloid material. This sort of story doesn't help anyone, really; it only waste's people's time while indulging their need to be riled up by a shocking headline. It gets me plenty of times, rest assured, my idle curiosity satiated but precious moments squandered.

    just my two cents!

    regards,

    the gugg.

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    Oregano:
    I'm not going to get up on a soap box and preach and say "Thou Shalt Not" because I know I'm in the minority, and most will tell me that it was a good thing for them. Glad to hear it, really.
    I guess I'm a part of the same minority since I haven't found a single thing in your texts in this thread that I disagree about.

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    I think it's gotta be a balance.
    I'm a great liar...but I've never had a need to lie, because my parents were always clear that honesty is far more important than discipline.
    I could count on one hand how many times I was spanked.
    If I was going to do something that was 'bad' or something with people who would be doing 'bad' things, I could tell them.

    I think the reason why it was so easy for us both(myself & my parents)is because I wasn't punished for lying at a young age...it was more like I was shown that there are really no benefits to it. Being clear about the truth on the other hand, always provided me with a backup plan. Rather than lie my way out of trouble, I could always count on people better that knew the details of what was going on.

    I know kids that were punished for lying when they were young, and darned if they didn't lie even more as they grew up. Most punishment is nothing more than a wedge between parent and child, because so often it's not accompanied by understanding.
    The punishment is in the consequences of bad behaviour. People that feel the need to add to that are usually just power tripping.
    If you explain how bad behaviour affects people negatively, most kids will get it...because a)they aren't so vengeful as some adults...especially if they're cared for. b)to teach is to express love...it shows the child that you're on their side...equipping them with the knowledge and understanding needed to live successfully.

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    Rob, in a perfect world, I think that would make sense. Most kids, and a whole helluvah lot of adults, while they know what is right and wrong, aren't always able to make the correct choices. They need to be reinforced, or else people will just do what they want. Just look at all the people in prison....I think it's fair to say that most (if not all) of those people know what they did was wrong, but without prison they'd just be running amuck doing as they pleased...

    prison is the grownups timeout chair.

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    Nice, this is developing into a neat discussion.

    WHen I was really little like five years old i stole some darts at the supermarket. ... a slap in the face would be like Paradise compared to what they forced me to do...shit I still remembers it with fear. ... hitting them is wrong.
    Well, first of all, they had a very easy opportunity to punish you horribly since they could publicly punish you for it. Then again, if they'd slapped you and then done that too, the point would have been clearer. And aside from that, you say that hitting is wrong. Why? What is a slap going to do? There is basically 0 chance of physical damage, (if there is then you're doing it wrong). I've been hurt far more just falling down and skinning my knee than getting "beaten" by my parents, but I got a very clear point out of the latter. (first one too, come to think of it. Don't fall down, dumbass ) Do I hate them? No. Do I have trauma? No, in fact, I'd probably have more if they made me return stolen darts to a store. Now that's DISCIPLINE. Ouch. Good thing I never stole stuff.

    If you confronted my dad about it, after he got through telling you it wasn't any of your "gaddam business" he would tell you that he wasn't abusive at all. That he was a very loving father and cared very much for me and my sister. See, I didn't get punished for anything that I didn't deserve to get punished for. He didn't just walk up to me and start swinging.
    When I got home, my dad met me at the door, told my friend to leave (I'd completely forgotten the incident at this point) gave me what for. Started by throwing me across the room.
    We can assume that he's lying.

    Are you really punishing them for something they've done, or are you venting your own frustration at them for having disrupted your day and caused a problem for you?
    Does it matter? The frustration vent is a sign that they've crossed the line. A bit tough though because an abuser will have a limit set too low and will go off too often. Ultimately, it's like any parenting method. If you aren't capable of doing it right, it's gonna fail no matter what it is.

    It's hard on my kids, because they push so damn hard, and it's hard on me, because I don't budge without a seriously good reason.

    I suppose I could smack them everytime they mouth off and call me a "poopy-butt-head" (yes, I've actually been called that... *sigh*) or worse, but what's the point? I have days where we go head to head from the time we get up to the time they're in bed (remember, my wife and I homeschool them, so it can be a looooong day).

    We have yelling matches, and the whole bit. But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.
    Don't take this wrong, but you're not winning. "because they push so damn hard", "I have days where we go head to head from the time we get up to the time they're in bed ", "We have yelling matches". You're kids are as much winners as you are. Sure you don't give, but does it matter? Are they learning not to push? That is more important than whether they can push succesfully or not, and from what you say, they aren't getting the point. Granted, I don't know your kids, but if you're having yelling matches and clashing from dawn till dusk, that's not a great sign that they are absorbing the lessons they should be learning from the disciplinary actions.

    I suppose I could smack them everytime they mouth off and call me a "poopy-butt-head" (yes, I've actually been called that... *sigh*) or worse, but what's the point?
    Hehe, childrens insults are so amusing. Like a breath of innocence amidst the "f*ck you"s and "motherf*cker" that you hear all the time. Aside from that, why don't you try it? You may be surprised at the results. Next time your kids give you lip give them a slap, raise your voice and show them that you REALLY aren't to be messed with. Then, after they've gotten the point, sit down and talk to them about it, and tell them why it's wrong, and not to do it, and all the stuff you would do normally to discipline them, though lighten up a bit since the main lesson was already administered.

    Anecdote: My cousin has a son, and she and her husband just can't discipline him. He screams and they cave. He has no respect for anyone and is a total brat. My uncle visited them and got the regular disrespect. He took the kid aside, smacked him up a bit and the kid acts civil towards him now. In one shot he managed to do what my cousin and her husband can't. I don't think thats wrong, I think that's effective.

    It's easier to smack then to explain.
    And it's hardest to do both, which is what you should do. A slap is not a replacement for verbal discipline, it is a modifier.

    Try smacking a co-worker to make a point and see how far it gets you. No, I'm serious. Try it.

    Now, if you won't smack a co-worker, why in the hell would you smack your kid?
    Your co-worker is not your child, they are your equal. Your child is NOT your equal, and don't ever treat them like they are. You are their parent, and you are responsible for raising them so that they will one day be able to be your equal. You're not going to win anything by treating your kid as an equal, and your kid will get a skewed perspective of his place in the family. Your kid is inferior to you, in all ways. He is immature, mentally undeveloped, and lacks a HUGE amount of experience needed to become a whole person. Until you've done your job as a parent and have raised a responsible adult on your level or above, you will always be superior.

    I don't know. Most of those kids are pretty well spanked and punished physcially from what I've seen. But that's my own personal take on things.
    Dunno, from my experience, it's the opposite. Depends where you live I guess.


    Also, there is this scary show here in Germany. "Supernannys" or something like that. It's basically a show where bad parents with kids from hell get help from professional councelors. And when I say bad parenst I mean it, and when I say kids from hell, I mean it too. One of the kids spent the first half of the show calling his mother a dirty swine, and another threatened to attack her mom with a knife. Seriously scary. Councellors do a good job without resorting to violence, but ultimately I feel sad for the parents, because the have no willpower, and they're kids are going to walk all over them in no time once the nanny leaves.


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    Rob, in a perfect world, I think that would make sense. Most kids, and a whole helluvah lot of adults, while they know what is right and wrong, aren't always able to make the correct choices. They need to be reinforced, or else people will just do what they want. Just look at all the people in prison....I think it's fair to say that most (if not all) of those people know what they did was wrong, but without prison they'd just be running amuck doing as they pleased...

    prison is the grownups timeout chair.
    the people in jail are a prime example of the results of the opposite kind of parenting that I recieved.
    How many of them do you think had parents that allowed them to make mistakes, but talked with them about why things worked the way they do? Do you think many of them had parents who knew they were out hanging with druggies? or were the parents in the dark about things while their kids were out causing trouble?
    I'm willing to bet that a lot of them got a lot of physical punishment as children, without any explaination of why something they did was bad...beyond simply the fact that it was bad, and that's just the way it is.
    ...so yeah, they're in jail...knowing what they did was bad...but they don't know wht it was bad...and they don't comprehend how it's better to behave in another way.
    Sure they know lying is bad...but they most certainly don't understand how truth is their best friend....and who can blame them...nobody gives much credit to people when they fess up to al the crimes they've committed.
    How many prisoners do you think are really loved??

    love & understanding...2 things that those people weren't given. Punishment doesn't work for them....why would it work for little kids?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto

    Your co-worker is not your child, they are your equal. Your child is NOT your equal, and don't ever treat them like they are. You are their parent, and you are responsible for raising them so that they will one day be able to be your equal. You're not going to win anything by treating your kid as an equal, and your kid will get a skewed perspective of his place in the family. Your kid is inferior to you, in all ways. He is immature, mentally undeveloped, and lacks a HUGE amount of experience needed to become a whole person. Until you've done your job as a parent and have raised a responsible adult on your level or above, you will always be superior.

    dude, this is exactly it. you aren't responsible for your co-workers, who they are now, and who they end up being in the world. every instance i've seen where parents treat them as such, and let the kids walk all over them, the kids have done just that. i think it is possible to demand respect and administer discipline without being abusive.

    america has just as much "little shit" syndrome as any place else, if not more...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoUseFrAName
    the people in jail are a prime example of the results of the opposite kind of parenting that I recieved.
    How many of them do you think had parents that allowed them to make mistakes, but talked with them about why things worked the way they do? Do you think many of them had parents who knew they were out hanging with druggies? or were the parents in the dark about things while their kids were out causing trouble?
    I'm willing to bet that a lot of them got a lot of physical punishment as children, without any explaination of why something they did was bad...beyond simply the fact that it was bad, and that's just the way it is.
    ...so yeah, they're in jail...knowing what they did was bad...but they don't know wht it was bad...and they don't comprehend how it's better to behave in another way.
    Sure they know lying is bad...but they most certainly don't understand how truth is their best friend....and who can blame them...nobody gives much credit to people when they fess up to al the crimes they've committed.
    How many prisoners do you think are really loved??

    love & understanding...2 things that those people weren't given. Punishment doesn't work for them....why would it work for little kids?

    -Rob
    good points Rob, I agree. I think the root of the problem here, is not the lack of love, or over amounts of physical discipline; its inactive parenting. extremes of any case really doesn't work....moderation is key.

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    good points Rob, I agree. I think the root of the problem here, is not the lack of love, or over amounts of physical discipline; its inactive parenting. extremes of any case really doesn't work....moderation is key.
    well, active parenting = being a loving parent.
    Inactive parents might have a lot of love for their kids...but they don't make the transaction...the kids don't get that necessary love.

    and yeah, extremes of either are bad...extreme love(which isn't so much love as it is smothering) can keep a kid too sheltered...too much violence breeds rebellion.

    ...also, spanking/physical punishment can't be the end of the world....a lot of kids got spanked and still turned out good(myself included)...
    really though, even if spanking in extreme moderation doesn't have long lasting negative effects...I wonder if it's at all necessary in the first place?

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    As far as I understand, its because kids CAN LIE, that's why we encourage them to tell the truth. Not the opposite.


    I was smacked to submission when I grew up. And coming from a traditional chinese family, I was smacked whenever things got out of hand. But I'm still quite the spoilt brat in the family (less spankings than my siblings) so I did get away with some of it.

    I don't condone physical aspect of disciplining children but I refuse to rule it out. It shouldn't be used as the first line of defense but the final. It should be a deterrence for children too....level of escalation and so on. But honestly, just as a child can get used to being hit...a parent can also get used to hitting children. So it should definitely not be condoned.

    Anyway lying is probably an instinct in humans


    In any case I have a few more ways that are more effective than spankings and timeouts or groundings. I hope I don't have to use it on my kid.



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    In any case I have a few more ways that are more effective than spankings and timeouts or groundings. I hope I don't have to use it on my kid.
    THE PIT! THE PIT!


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    Kids should be sent to some remote island in the South-China sea and be forced to reenact Lord of the Flies. This way only the strong and the smart will survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    We can assume that he's lying.
    We can also assume that you only have part of the story and really don't know what you are talking about because you are only responding to the very, very small slice of my life that I've shared with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Does it matter? The frustration vent is a sign that they've crossed the line. A bit tough though because an abuser will have a limit set too low and will go off too often. Ultimately, it's like any parenting method. If you aren't capable of doing it right, it's gonna fail no matter what it is.
    So, at this point I should smack you, right? I mean, if you were my kid. Good backhand across the mouth to shut you up for disagreeing with your elder (You're younger than I am, so I'd be justified. If you were my kid, that is).
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Don't take this wrong, but you're not winning.
    *WHAT* the fuck are you talking about? "Winning?" Winning what? I'm not at war with my kids. That's got to be one of the most assinine statements I've heard recently. No offense, but jeeze, dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    "because they push so damn hard", "I have days where we go head to head from the time we get up to the time they're in bed ", "We have yelling matches". You're kids are as much winners as you are. Sure you don't give, but does it matter? Are they learning not to push? That is more important than whether they can push succesfully or not, and from what you say, they aren't getting the point.
    Again, what are you talking about? I WANT my kids to push. I'm serious. I want them to push as hard as they can. They're mentally much more nimble than most of their friends. Their teachers* are literally stunned by what they know, and how articulate they are.

    They push their limits. They don't take "no" for answer. They argue with me almost daily. They challenge me.

    I say bring it on. These kids are a small force to contend with. Not some shallow cattle that go and resnetlfully play video games.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto

    Granted, I don't know your kids, but if you're having yelling matches and clashing from dawn till dusk, that's not a great sign that they are absorbing the lessons they should be learning from the disciplinary actions.
    Heh, that's right. You don't know my kids, and have no idea about my family, other than what I've shared here.

    Just because we clash doesn't mean that they aren't learning. Jesus. As I've already stated, they outshine most of the kids their age. But I don't take responsibility for that. The kids are really bright.

    Both of them have strong wills and are very stubborn. So am I.

    What they've learned is that if they have an opposing view, they can voice it without fear of retribution. They can disagree with me. And they are much stronger for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto


    Hehe, childrens insults are so amusing. Like a breath of innocence amidst the "f*ck you"s and "motherf*cker" that you hear all the time. Aside from that, why don't you try it? You may be surprised at the results. Next time your kids give you lip give them a slap, raise your voice and show them that you REALLY aren't to be messed with.
    Dude, you know. No.

    And do me a favor: don't give me advice until you have kids of your own, okay? No offense, but you really, really don't know what you are talking about.

    By doing what you suggest, I would be breaking a trust I've spent years to develop with my kids. And frankly, I'm not willing to do that for anyone.

    As for raising my voice, I do when I need to.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Then, after they've gotten the point, sit down and talk to them about it, and tell them why it's wrong, and not to do it, and all the stuff you would do normally to discipline them, though lighten up a bit since the main lesson was already administered.
    And then I get to deal with them hitting each other and their friends. No thanks. This goes on at school regularly from other kids. My youngest has fortunately is built like a small tank about as strong so it doesn't phase him much, but I do have to deal with enough passive/agressive behavior he gets from the kids at school to last me. I don't need to create more of my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto

    Anecdote: My cousin has a son, and she and her husband just can't discipline him. He screams and they cave.
    That's their mistake. You shouldn't cave.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    He has no respect for anyone and is a total brat. My uncle visited them and got the regular disrespect. He took the kid aside, smacked him up a bit and the kid acts civil towards him now.
    Yeah, because the kids most likely afraid of him now. Good call.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    In one shot he managed to do what my cousin and her husband can't. I don't think thats wrong, I think that's effective.
    wow...
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    And it's hardest to do both, which is what you should do. A slap is not a replacement for verbal discipline, it is a modifier.
    It's a fucking cop-out, and weak besides.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Your co-worker is not your child, they are your equal. Your child is NOT your equal, and don't ever treat them like they are. You are their parent, and you are responsible for raising them so that they will one day be able to be your equal.
    How many kids do you have?
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    You're not going to win anything by treating your kid as an equal,
    And again, what the hell am I supposed to be winning? A war? What?

    I'll tell you something: I treat my kids like adults. I expect them to act like kids, but I treat them like adults. Because of this, I have two very mature, articulate free thinkers with incredible imaginations and tons of self confidence and no hang ups who love and respect their parents unconditionally.

    Read that again. Understand what I just typed.

    I'm not exagerating any aspect of that. And you know what? I've done that without hitting them once.

    Thanks, but I'll keep my own advice for raising my kids. If you want to hit yours when you have them, feel free.

    All that said, no offense taken, hopefully non given.

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg.

    *My youngest goes to pre-school and my eldest is part of a homeschool program we have locally. Both attend twice a week.


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    We can also assume that you only have part of the story and really don't know what you are talking about because you are only responding to the very, very small slice of my life that I've shared with you.
    Yes. I have no idea. Throwing people across rooms and beating them all the time is ok, especially if they are your own flesh and blood. How could I make an assumption based on that alone. Shame on me.


    So, at this point I should smack you, right? I mean, if you were my kid. Good backhand across the mouth to shut you up for disagreeing with your elder (You're younger than I am, so I'd be justified. If you were my kid, that is).
    Not unless you are a horrible parent. If you smack your kids for just disagreeing, you're unbalanced.

    *WHAT* the fuck are you talking about? "Winning?" Winning what? I'm not at war with my kids. That's got to be one of the most assinine statements I've heard recently. No offense, but jeeze, dude.
    and I quote:

    But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.
    Granted, that can be interpreted a few ways, but either way, it's a reference to you winning, which should make my comments about more understandable.

    Again, what are you talking about? I WANT my kids to push. I'm serious. I want them to push as hard as they can. They're mentally much more nimble than most of their friends. Their teachers* are literally stunned by what they know, and how articulate they are.
    Good for them. What will they do if they don't encounter any barriers? If you weren't there, what would they do? Could go well, or quite badly. Aside from that, nimble minds and articulate speach are in no way an outcome of being pushy. There are hundreds of ways to foster that which don't involve confrontation.

    Just because we clash doesn't mean that they aren't learning.
    Academics is a bit different than respect. Proven easily if you've ever met an educated asshole, or a great person with a bad education.

    What they've learned is that if they have an opposing view, they can voice it without fear of retribution. They can disagree with me. And they are much stronger for it.
    I applaud you on this point. My father is exactly the opposite. Except he never smacked me if I disagreed. That would have been merciful. He just lectured me for HOURS about how I was wrong and why he was right. Tough part is that he's pretty educated, so he could pull lots of backup on me from history if I ever tried to argue back. Course, this never deterred me. And now we argue all the time. Pretty fun.

    Just in case you don't bring this back to bite me inthe ass. I don't see arguments as a problem as long as they are about something like history, morality, sports, or just general topics that might come up for conversation. Arguing, and pushing against you and your authority constantly, is not acceptable. Until they become teenagers, in which case, it's basically a given. Which means you'll keel over dead when you're guys turn 17 and REALLY step up the heat. (j/k, though considering that even I gave my parents considerable grief, it may well turn out to be fully serious)

    And do me a favor: don't give me advice until you have kids of your own, okay? No offense, but you really, really don't know what you are talking about.

    By doing what you suggest, I would be breaking a trust I've spent years to develop with my kids. And frankly, I'm not willing to do that for anyone.
    Granted, never had kids, so ultimately I have to bend to you, because I have no practical first hand experience on the matter from the parent's side. But I will raise my kids as I was raised, because me and sister came out as intelligent, responsible adults, and our parents were right. Only thing they did wrong along the way I would say is the lecturing, which was really REALLY excessive.

    And you are right, doing it now would be a bad idea, since you've already gone a long way to establish your current situation.

    And then I get to deal with them hitting each other and their friends. No thanks. This goes on at school regularly from other kids. My youngest has fortunately is built like a small tank about as strong so it doesn't phase him much, but I do have to deal with enough passive/agressive behavior he gets from the kids at school to last me. I don't need to create more of my own.
    If a few smacks spread over a decade can do this to a kid, then I'll be damned. Hell, I've never thrown a punch in anger (serious punch, not talking about hitting someone on the arm or something like that).

    Yeah, because the kids most likely afraid of him now. Good call.
    3 year olds generally don't understand a long drawn out conversation about how you should treat people respectfully, let alone absorb it. My uncle doesn't have the luxury of taking on the kids upbringing himself, so he has to make due with what he can in the time span that he has. Aside from that, when would a kid not fear their parents? Discipline is about fear, however you put it. The fear of a consequence is what discipline is all about. Your kids may not fear getting hit, but they must fear you on another level if they do what you say. We fear the law, so we obey it, for example. Sure, there are many peolpe who would obey the law even if it was not enforced, because they realize that it is in the best inerest to keep the peace, but if there were no legal consequences to illegal actions, you can bet your ass that crime would blow through the roof. Consequences keep us in line, and that is a constant throughout life.

    Also, you forget something very important. Kids forgive and forget very easily on the whole. I forgave my parents for hitting me at most half a day after the fact, and then everything was just like always, aside from the lesson learned.

    It's a fucking cop-out, and weak besides.
    It's only a cop out if you use it indiscriminantly and without reason, and there is nothing weak about using a powerful disciplinary path that works just as well as another, slower method.

    And again, what the hell am I supposed to be winning? A war? What?
    Thats just it, there isn't anything to win, so there's no need to bother trying. You're kids aren't adults. Period. I will never agree with you should you dispute this point until they are indeed adults, capable of fully integrating into society. Look back at old written work if you have it, preferabbly form middle school. I can do that, and I can tell you that what I see is in no way the rational thought of an adult capable of standing up to me in a test-of-anything today. Kids just aren't adults. Neither physically, nor mentally.

    I expect them to act like kids, but I treat them like adults
    You treat them like adults for acting childish?

    Because of this, I have two very mature, articulate free thinkers with incredible imaginations and tons of self confidence and no hang ups who love and respect their parents unconditionally.
    Actually, I would attribute most of it to this:

    My youngest goes to pre-school and my eldest is part of a homeschool program we have locally. Both attend twice a week.
    Lets just say that public school is not the place for fast development, considering that grades 1-5 are slacker time to a large degree. Lets face it, you sound like a very dedicated parent, and you probably make the most of his homeschooling. He is getting more from you than they would in public school. Thats almost 100% guaranteed. You probably work with your youngest son as well right?


    And you seem to have some sort of misconception of what I am talking about with "beating" your kids. First of all, that isn't the right word at all. That suggests some sort of repeated violent physical attack. A smack across the face is far less than that. No considerable pain, no bruising, no repetition. Short, quick, across the face hit, a stinging after-effect, and that's it. I never remember getting hit twice in a row, ever. And aside from that, you say it as if it's something you would do all the time, for anything. I can understand that attitude in relation to your upbriging, which you yourself said was full of physical punishment, but thats far from the case. If you have to hit your kid all the time, you're either failing as a parent, or you're tolerance is frighteningly low. As I said, I only remember getting hit a handful of times. And I was never slapped after turning 10 or so really. Slapping someone who can reason at a higher level is not going to work. The closer children come to being full adults, the more they should be treated like adults. So you have physical pain to act as a reinforcement for your words when things get extreme, but the rest of the time you can go about normal parenting, using passive disciplinary methods.


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    But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.
    When I read this I totally did not believe or even think for a second that he meant he won against his children. It seems to me that this reads as if he's won the day, he's won against himself,by not giving into frustration and hitting his children (is that what you meant?).

    I will say dfacto, that it is correct that its hard to discern the meaning of what people say on the internet, you and I included. I think quoting the exact part in question and paraphrasing with a question "is this what you meant?" is a good way to start if wanting to keep it to a civil debate and not get it lost in flame land. Why can't clowns and pirates just get along? <obscure reference >

    I suppose we all have different ways of raising our children, and to an extent its "Each to his own", that line to me is drawn at abuse, wether it be verbal, physical etc... Now the argument comes at where did one cross the line. An argument I am not prepared to jump into... it deserves a lot of thought... and you guys have made me look and evaluate what I think.. (still thinking... can't you smell the burn)

    I would like to give Oregano great props for not perpetuating what he endured as a child. It takes a will and self awareness to NOT do to your children, what your parents did to you. (if it was wrong)

    I'm wary about posting in threads like this, as I don't want to get into the argument (generally because its a rare instance when anyone is arguing the same thing in one thread ... so confusing, but thats our nature),

    I *know* some people can work it into their lifestyles and parenting techniques without letting it get out of control. And that's good, I'm very glad that they can. But at the same time, why even incorporate it to begin with? Most of the time it's a frustration vent for the parent. Yes, I know, it set's limits for the child.
    Oregano, perhaps another point is that, in my opinion (we all have them here heh) when you hit your child, you are also showing him a loss of control on your part. Hey, we do lose control, and we often times are fighting to keep it, I as with oregano (i think thats what he was saying?) feel I've "won the day" when I can maintain my self control in trying times, not to mention setting a very good example. ( a concept lost on our times perhaps )

    Another avenue this whole conversation could run down is the ruling with fear factor of it all.

    I don't want to pass judgement on anyone in this thread, because honestly, typed text does not give enough information and I dont' know you guys personally. If I see something being said that strikes me a bit off, I really would rather ask it to be explained more clearly so as to get a better idea of what is meant.

    He just lectured me for HOURS about how I was wrong and why he was right. Tough part is that he's pretty educated, so he could pull lots of backup on me from history if I ever tried to argue back.
    hehe, my husband said his father did the exact same thing, apparently it was a bit of a deterrent for them. Hours and hours of lecture, they began to ask for a whipping... and never got one... just the endless lectures. And also now we go over there and can talk with each other for hours on end, its great to be able to grow up and talk with your parents like that

    **edit**gah, I can't believe I posted, I think they need to medicate me more. Its like sitting there eating popcorn at the movie then you see this really harrowing scene and wish yourself in it... then find yourself face to face with 10,000 bloodthirsty cannibalistic pygmies... why do we do it??

    Last edited by Marie; December 10th, 2004 at 12:46 AM. Reason: I spelled something correctly...
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Yes. I have no idea. Throwing people across rooms and beating them all the time is ok, especially if they are your own flesh and blood. How could I make an assumption based on that alone. Shame on me.
    First, I never said it was okay. Secondly, he didn't beat me all the time. Thridly, that happened one time. and finally, I've already explained the pain that caused me, so thanks. And yeah, shame on you, for passing judgement on something you don't understand.

    I don't justify it, and I don't even have to explain it to you. My point is about this whole thing is simply this: to give an idea of what happens, what life is like when taken to an extreme. I've said that I didn't agree with my father, and I gave a couple of examples of why I don't and just a little bit of the hell I had growing up. But I can tell you that yes, in fact he did love me and sister, and my mom.

    Beyond that, never mind that at that time things were pretty shitty all the way around. He'd been laid off and my mom just had a bout with spinal menengitus that almost killed her. I understand why he did it. I just don't agree with. So, at this point, thanks and fuck you.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Not unless you are a horrible parent. If you smack your kids for just disagreeing, you're unbalanced.
    I agree. But I've seen it happen too many times to kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto

    and I quote:
    But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.

    Granted, that can be interpreted a few ways, but either way, it's a reference to you winning, which should make my comments about more understandable.
    I'm not in a battle against them, and that's not what I was referring to.

    In the context you are using here, I am the victor, and will remain so. Because my first impulse is, was, and probably always will be to smack them. Because that's the way I was brought up.

    I win because I don't have to resort to a cheap assed way out in order to deal with my kids. I've won because I get to have the years with my kids that my dad cheated himself out of with me.

    So tell me I'm not winning. Dude, I've won.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Good for them. What will they do if they don't encounter any barriers?
    They figure out a way around it, like any other well adjust kid. Or they accept it as a limitation and move on. what's your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    If you weren't there, what would they do? Could go well, or quite badly.
    What's your point here, really? That I'm sheltering them? Give me a break. These are probably two of the least sheltered kids I know.

    See, you are making the mistake of assuming that because someone doesn't resort to hitting that they are somehow a weak parent, and that they let their kids run rampent over them. That's your mistake. I've already mentioned that I'm the disciplinarian in the family, and believe me, I don't take shit from them. But at the same time, I allow space for them to try their limits, and to see how far they can get before they run into that barrier, whatever that may be in the given circumstance. I raise them by teaching them about being responsible for themselves, being independent, relying on themselves, not other people, to take of things for them. If they indeed need help, I provide it, because as a parent that's what I'm here for. But at the same time, if they screw up, I allow them to skin their knees so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Aside from that, nimble minds and articulate speach are in no way an outcome of being pushy. There are hundreds of ways to foster that which don't involve confrontation.
    EXACTLY.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Academics is a bit different than respect. Proven easily if you've ever met an educated asshole, or a great person with a bad education.
    Your point....?
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    I applaud you on this point. My father is exactly the opposite. Except he never smacked me if I disagreed. That would have been merciful. He just lectured me for HOURS about how I was wrong and why he was right. Tough part is that he's pretty educated, so he could pull lots of backup on me from history if I ever tried to argue back. Course, this never deterred me. And now we argue all the time. Pretty fun.
    Sounds like me and my mom. (gad she could lecture....)
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Just in case you don't bring this back to bite me inthe ass. I don't see arguments as a problem as long as they are about something like history, morality, sports, or just general topics that might come up for conversation. Arguing, and pushing against you and your authority constantly, is not acceptable.
    No, it has to be, up to a point. they HAVE to know why. Otherwise they just blindly follow, and I will not have that. My position as a parent is solid.

    The bounderies I've set as a parent is that they can challenge anything, EXCEPT a saftey issue. That is the one line that will not be crossed. And the few times it has been, they've taught themselves the lesson without me having to raise my hand or voice. Example: we live on three acres of very rocky, wooded terrain. I made it clear that under no circumstances were they to run outside except in once space that is covered with sand. My youngest, when I was not around, chose to ignore me. He split his head open and earned himself four stitches. He doesn't run, and knows that I'm not just blowing wind when I tell him it's a saftey issue. I no longer have to even remind him not to run.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Granted, never had kids, so ultimately I have to bend to you, because I have no practical first hand experience on the matter from the parent's side. But I will raise my kids as I was raised, because me and sister came out as intelligent, responsible adults, and our parents were right.
    Here's the thing. I could raise my kids the way I was raised. They would turn out all right, because I did. yeah, I've got my scars. I'm 34 and the shit I dealt with as a kid still hurts like hell. But then what? I end up pushing my kids away. I just don't want to do that. They're too important to me for me to make them suffer, even marginally they way I did. That doesn't mean I'm soft on them. I'd bet that I'm probably a lot harder on them than what most kids get. I just don't use force to make my point. That's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    If a few smacks spread over a decade can do this to a kid, then I'll be damned. Hell, I've never thrown a punch in anger (serious punch, not talking about hitting someone on the arm or something like that).
    In the end, you are probably. People, and kids are resilient. But as I've mentioned, it too often goes beyond just a few smacks over a decade. It's usually a lot more than that. (referring to the kids and parents I knew growning up, and that I know now).
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    3 year olds generally don't understand a long drawn out conversation about how you should treat people respectfully, let alone absorb it.
    Don't forget, I was dealing with a three year old not all that long ago. I know about thier mental limitations on an intimate basis. There is no rational thought in their little heads. It's something that has to be taught. As I mentioned far above, you must ready to go over the same ground again, and again, and again, and again ad nausium until you are blue in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    My uncle doesn't have the luxury of taking on the kids upbringing himself, so he has to make due with what he can in the time span that he has. Aside from that, when would a kid not fear their parents? Discipline is about fear, however you put it.
    No. It's about understanding consequences. Fear should have nothing to do with it. My kids do not fear me. They do understand that they can, and do, cause me a great deal of frustration at times. They understand that if they purposefully misbehave, they are consequences that will have to be paid. They understand that actions breed reactions. They understand. They do not fear.

    yeah, I get angry. You have no idea. I get angry too easy sometimes. And yes, I've scared the hell out of my kids by yelling at them, and by getting in their face about something. Every parent will tell you it happens. Kids will push you to your limits regardless of whatever parenting philosophy you adopt. But there's no need for them to fear me. What would be the point? Because I'm the parent? Man, that's a jacked view of things if I ever heard one. Kids being well behaved becuase they are afraid of their dad.

    You know, that was me. As soon as I was able, I spent as little time at home as I could.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    The fear of a consequence is what discipline is all about. Your kids may not fear getting hit, but they must fear you on another level if they do what you say.
    No. They don't, I'm glad to say. They understand that what I ask them to do is backed up by a sound reason, not because I say so or because I'm bigger. They understand as well that I can't always explain why right then and there. But they know that an explanation will be given.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    We fear the law, so we obey it, for example.
    Maybe you fear the law, but I don't. That's the difference. I understand the law as it applies to me. I don't fear it. I have no need to fear it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Sure, there are many peolpe who would obey the law even if it was not enforced, because they realize that it is in the best inerest to keep the peace, but if there were no legal consequences to illegal actions, you can bet your ass that crime would blow through the roof. Consequences keep us in line, and that is a constant throughout life.
    That has nothing to do with fear. Pehaps for some poor souls.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Also, you forget something very important. Kids forgive and forget very easily on the whole. I forgave my parents for hitting me at most half a day after the fact, and then everything was just like always, aside from the lesson learned.
    Like I said, I forgave my dad. But I still don't call what he did acceptable. Things would go on as normal sometimes. Other times it wouldn't. It depended.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    It's only a cop out if you use it indiscriminantly and without reason, and there is nothing weak about using a powerful disciplinary path that works just as well as another, slower method.
    Sorry. It's a cop-out. It's a cheap assed method and cowardly. Yeah, kids rebound. They may forgive and forget. But why even hit them? In everything you've posted you've not once given a convincing reason to hit someone that I love.

    You have made it clear that you consider children beneath you, as something to be dealt with in a heavy handed manner and someone to instill fear in becasue they are inferior to you in every way.

    Dude, you ain't ever stepping foot on my property.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Thats just it, there isn't anything to win, so there's no need to bother trying. You're kids aren't adults.
    You are right. They're not.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Period. I will never agree with you should you dispute this point until they are indeed adults, capable of fully integrating into society.
    There's no argument here. This is why I don't hit them. They're not adults. They don't understand why you hit them. They may accept it, but they won't understand why you hit them.

    And if you think they can understand why you hit them, then they can understand a verbal explanation as to why they need not do something. It's that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Look back at old written work if you have it, preferabbly form middle school. I can do that, and I can tell you that what I see is in no way the rational thought of an adult capable of standing up to me in a test-of-anything today. Kids just aren't adults. Neither physically, nor mentally.
    Never said they were. I said I treat them like adults, and expect them to act like kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    You treat them like adults for acting childish?
    What this means is that I treat them with respect. But I expect them to act like a kid and do all the crazy stupid stuff that kids do. But I treat them with respect, and in turn, guess what? They treat me with respect. Interesting concept, that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Actually, I would attribute most of it to this:

    Quote:
    Because of this, I have two very mature, articulate free thinkers with incredible imaginations and tons of self confidence and no hang ups who love and respect their parents unconditionally.

    Actually, I would attribute most of it to this:

    My youngest goes to pre-school and my eldest is part of a homeschool program we have locally. Both attend twice a week.
    On two days a week? Right. You really know what you are talking about here.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Lets just say that public school is not the place for fast development, considering that grades 1-5 are slacker time to a large degree. Lets face it, you sound like a very dedicated parent, and you probably make the most of his homeschooling. He is getting more from you than they would in public school. Thats almost 100% guaranteed. You probably work with your youngest son as well right?
    As I've said, they are both homeschooled.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    And you seem to have some sort of misconception of what I am talking about with "beating" your kids.
    No. I have no misconception about what you are talking about. You are talking about "smacking them across the face" in extreme cases only.

    I am saying that it is quite simply unnecessary, and in my opinion, vulgar to hit someone you love and that relies on you for guidance. That simple.

    Regards.
    ~Oreg.


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    I read the article and, like Mindflaw, I didn't really see anything wrong with it. It just seemed to be saying that your kids will lie at certain stages in their development--don't freak out about it, just handle it in an appropriate manner. And thinking about WHY they are lying will help you get to the bottom of the matter and solve it more effectively.

    I think, generally, that "the punishment should fit the crime." Mindflaw's story of having to return the darts to the store was a good example of this. The punishment taught him a direct lesson about why stealing was wrong.

    This is why I don't think spanking is a very effective method. It's unpleasant and in this way can be a deterrent, and you can follow it up with a discussion, which is good, but I still don't think it's the best method.
    I generally think this way:
    you make a mess=you clean it up
    you take something=you give it back and apologize
    you are mean to someone=you go apologize

    Plus some discussion with your parent(s), of course.

    If my kid makes a mess and I spank him and send him to his room, this MIGHT make him think twice about making a mess again. But I'll be the one cleaning up the mess. Instead, I should make HIM clean it up. This way he will learn WHY we don't make messes. They are a pain to clean up and someone has to do it.

    I want to note that I don't have children, but I am the oldest child of a very large family and have done my share of "parenting."

    The ONLY time I think spanking is acceptable is if you need a direct consequence. A three or four year old child does not understand consequences very well, especially if the consequence doesn't happen immediately after the action. A little swat on the bum will provide that. As soon as they can understand consequences better, you shouldn't need to do this.

    I also am not a big fan of yelling. I will raise my voice sometimes to get the attention of noisy kids, but I don't think yelling while disciplining is the best method.

    emily

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    Hi Marie, thanks for posting.

    Don't worry too much about dfacto and I chewing each other's heads off. It may be bloody, but it's fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie
    When I read this I totally did not believe or even think for a second that he meant he won against his children. It seems to me that this reads as if he's won the day, he's won against himself,by not giving into frustration and hitting his children (is that what you meant?).
    bingo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marie
    <snip>
    I would like to give Oregano great props for not perpetuating what he endured as a child. It takes a will and self awareness to NOT do to your children, what your parents did to you.
    Thank you
    Quote Originally Posted by Marie
    I'm wary about posting in threads like this, as I don't want to get into the argument (generally because its a rare instance when anyone is arguing the same thing in one thread ... so confusing, but thats our nature),
    I think the main thing, for me, is that I leave it where it is posted. For example, I think in many ways, dfacto and I are really saying the same thing in the end, just approaching it differently, and with some definate differences of opinions. Either of us may make a harsh statement when addressing the other, but I don't hold it against him, and harbor no hard feelings. I may tell him what I think about what he said in no uncertain terms, but I'm not going to hold a grudge, and I don't think he's going to either. Though, after my last post he may I wouldn't blame 'im tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marie
    Oregano, perhaps another point is that, in my opinion (we all have them here heh) when you hit your child, you are also showing him a loss of control on your part. Hey, we do lose control, and we often times are fighting to keep it,
    Well, in my opinion, that's what god invented walls for. My kids have seen me totally lose it. But I've *never* touched them when I have. Ever.

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg.


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    don't forget hanging art on them... walls are great for that !

    --marie--


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