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Thread: Kids telling lies is good for you and them

  1. #1
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    Kids telling lies is good for you and them

    http://family.msn.com/tool/article.a...c_110504_lying

    bullshit radar going wild.

    insisting on the truth encourages lying?

    "In the long run, the most effective solution is to try to discern what message the child is trying to convey with his lie." wtf?
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  3. #2
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    Stupid advice for incompetent parents.
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    [reversed the order of my post so that it makes sense contextually to the previous posts]
    On telling lies:
    Back to topic... As for the lying; both of my boys have lied. And it's pretty easy to catch them in it. I don't encourage it, and they've both ended up in the corner for it. I've turned it around and have lied to them to show how it ends up hurting, and have made sure they understood what I was doing and why (they knew I was telling a lie). Most lies a kids starts out with are harmless shifts of responsibility, and easy to catch. As it is, we don't have a problem with it. We keep our relationship open with our kids, and because of this, they tell us the truth. Conversely, we always tell them the truth. A good example is they both know there is no such thing as Santa, or the Easter Bunny. I believe that you have to set the example for the child in order for them to have a proven pattern to refer to for their own lives. If you don't, they will adopt whatever pattern is the strongest.

    I skimmed the article. I didn't see anything outrageous. Maybe I missed it. But whatever. Kids lie. They lie young. They either learn that it's not a good idea. or an effective tool to get what they want. It depends on how the parent deals with it. My youngest tells whoppers. He's five. You can always tell with him. I make a joke out of it, and it's not a big deal. When he tries to tell a lie to get out of something, he's caught and it's explained why it's wrong (shirking responsibility for something) and it's dealt with. Kids need to reminding again, and again, and again, and again, and again about things. I wish it was deal with it once and that's it, but it's not. Everything needs reinforcing and consistancy.

    Bleh. I should start a coloumn

    ~Oreg^2
    ---
    On physicaly disciplining children: (originally posted first)

    You know, I doubt seriously anyone who's posted here yet is a parent.

    I am. I've got two boys, 7 and 5. I've never beat them, spanked them or ever raised my hand to intentionally "discipline" them in their lives. There was the one time that my eldest, all of 3 and half at the time did try to bite my nose in a fit of rage, and he did get smacked across the face, but not as disciplinary action. It was to keep my nose intact. (little kid teeth are SHARP! )

    I got spanked, slapped, grounded, thrown across the room, yelled at, thumped, put down, grounded, put in my place, delt with, and any other form of "discipline" you can care to imagine.

    I hated my dad for it. It wasn't until the year before my dad died that we were able to make peace. I'm glad that I did have the chance, but I often think of all the years that were wasted because of the "discipline" I was taught to loathe. To this day, I still hate how he treated me. I don't thank him. He was an abusive. I understand now some of the reasons, but to me, that doesn't excuse what he did, it merely provides an explanation.

    In my opinion, spanking is child abuse. There's no reason that I can fathom for ever beating your kids. If you have a violent child, look at the way you are parenting. Are you involved with your kids, or do you shove them aside? How do you treat them? Do you treat them like friends or someone you would rather not be around?

    Do you really like creating animosity between yourself and your child? Do you enjoy them *fearing* you? Because that's what happens. Violence perpetuates itself.

    I could go on, but seriously. If there's a problem with the kid, the first place you need to look is in the mirror.

    Don't get me wrong, I've felt like beating the hell out of my kids sometimes. I've wanted to. I've put my hand through the wall in my frustration with them. But I've *never* hit them. It's much, much harder to control your anger, your frustration with the little shit and talk to them and explain why they shouldn't be doing what they are doing.

    Raising your hand against someone who is a quarter your size is just sick. And a cop-out. If you need to go beat on someone because you are that frustrated, go down to the bar and pick a fight with someone your own size.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    ~Oreg.
    Last edited by S.C. Watson; December 9th, 2004 at 05:07 PM.

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    Oregano, you're right about the physical aspect, but as far i understood the article, it talks about making lying socially acceptable to your kids...
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    Just edited my post. Punched submit before I was ready

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    this is off topic, but i agree with you Oregano, to a point.

    I was spanked as a kid, but not in excess. To be honest, I'm glad now that I was. I needed it as a kid. (Don't take that literally, my parents employed a wide range of tactics to raise me right, I got what I deserved). But kids and parents are all different.

    To me, parenting (among many other things) is alot like art. There isn't a set "right" or "wrong" way to go about it, and different techniques produce different results all the time, but I know bad art when I see it. The above article is one such example.

    I'm not a parent, but I've got a brother 12 years my younger I've had a small hand in raising. Kids ARE a pain in the ass.

    edit: You're right on Oregano. The parts of the article where it's advising that "lying is natural, you've just got to let them grow out of the phase" type of stuff...thats crap. I got the jist that they were employing the mentality that "the more you tell them no, the more they want to do it", which, true in some aspects of life, but really not with kids. They need to be taught right and wrong.

    Active parenting is underrated. props Oregano.
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    1) I was joking. Nobody links to Maddox and isn't joking. Except sickos like me. Wait...

    2) You're not talking about discipline Oregano, you're talking about child abuse.

    He was an abusive
    If you need to go beat on someone because you are that frustrated, go down to the bar and pick a fight with someone your own size.
    Beating up your kids out of general frustration IS NOT discipline. Discipline is a quick smack to let them know they've done wrong, and that there are consequences to their actions. My parents beat me, but by beat I don't mean they punched me shitless or crap like that. That's abuse. Discipline is punishing your child for something extreme with an appropriately extreme measure, like a stinging slap to the face. Thats all I ever got. I can count the times I've been "beaten" on one hand, and they were all the same: a slap to the face. Short, sweet, and to the point. I understood immediately that I had done something wrong, that I had payed for it, and that I could have avoided it, and the following conversation cleared up the point. I don't feel bitter about it, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be an option for others. In fact I'm glad that I got hit a few times. If I had grown up with lax disciplinary standards that some of my classmates "enjoyed" I'd probably be a little shit like them.

    Come to think of it, our society seems to be suffering from the "little shit" plague more and more, considering the generation a few years below me. Probably has to do with less disciplinary action. Because it's oh so wrong.

    BTW, I in no way connect the "little shit" thing to you Oregano, in case you thought I was taking a stab at you. I was just commenting on something I noticed. People have gotten afraid of disciplining their kids, which started with the drift away from beatings. Now some people don't even stand up to their kids, when all they need is a smack upside the head, and an "stfu and listen".

    I also don't in any way deny the need for being able to verbally discipline your kids. That stuff goes without saying.
    Last edited by dfacto; December 9th, 2004 at 05:53 PM.

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  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    1) I was joking. Nobody links to Maddox and isn't joking. Except sickos like me. Wait...
    Oh, I know. I'm sorry. I just sort of ranted when I shouldn't have, but decided to let it stand, because, well. You know. I've got issues. Someone hand me a candle and a name tag, dammit
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    2) You're not talking about discipline Oregano, you're talking about child abuse.
    Well, since I inadvertently hijacked the thread with my own compmlexes, actually, yes and no. See the thing of it is that the two are awfully damn close. If you confronted my dad about it, after he got through telling you it wasn't any of your "gaddam business" he would tell you that he wasn't abusive at all. That he was a very loving father and cared very much for me and my sister. See, I didn't get punished for anything that I didn't deserve to get punished for. He didn't just walk up to me and start swinging.

    I'd do something that I wasn't supposed to do, argue, get into something, lie, whatever, and depending on what I did, I got a smack across the mouth, or the belt across the butt. But it happened a lot. Consistancy? maybe. I don't know. But too often the discipline would spiral. I remember one time I got into an argument with my mom, and I left the house in frustration. When I got home, my dad met me at the door, told my friend to leave (I'd completely forgotten the incident at this point) gave me what for. Started by throwing me across the room.

    I *know* some people can work it into their lifestyles and parenting techniques without letting it get out of control. And that's good, I'm very glad that they can. But at the same time, why even incorporate it to begin with? Most of the time it's a frustration vent for the parent. Yes, I know, it set's limits for the child. I understand all the pro-psychobable why it's supposed to be a good thing for them. But my point is that it is, in my opinion, entirely unnecessary.

    I'm not going to get up on a soap box and preach and say "Thou Shalt Not" because I know I'm in the minority, and most will tell me that it was a good thing for them. Glad to hear it, really.

    But think about it when you go to discipline your kids when you have them. I mean, really. Are you really punishing them for something they've done, or are you venting your own frustration at them for having disrupted your day and caused a problem for you?

    Truth be told, for a long time I didn't think of it as abuse. I really didn't. I didn't see it that way and really didn't think any thing of it. I even said that I was glad that my parents treated me the way they did. It wasn't until I got married and had kids of my own that I really thought about what was at work in the process. I don't know. It's just for me my two guys are the greatest in the world. And every time I have to confront them over something (and I'm the *serious* disciplinarian in the house, trust me. I don't take crap for nothing), I just feel like hell. It's hard on my kids, because they push so damn hard, and it's hard on me, because I don't budge without a seriously good reason.

    I suppose I could smack them everytime they mouth off and call me a "poopy-butt-head" (yes, I've actually been called that... *sigh*) or worse, but what's the point? I have days where we go head to head from the time we get up to the time they're in bed (remember, my wife and I homeschool them, so it can be a looooong day).

    We have yelling matches, and the whole bit. But at the end of the day, when everything is said and done, they know that I love them, and I've won another day because I've not spanked them and have found another way of dealing with it, and they've learned another side of an issue that they otherwise wouldn't have with getting spanked.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Beating up your kids out of general frustration IS NOT discipline.
    You're right. But as I mentioned above, why smack them in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Discipline is a quick smack to let them know they've done wrong, and that there are consequences to their actions.
    It's easier to smack then to explain. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    My parents beat me, but by beat I don't mean they punched me shitless or crap like that. That's abuse.
    You're right. Mine didn't punch me either. Abuse is often a little more subtle than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Discipline is punishing your child for something extreme with an appropriately extreme measure, like a stinging slap to the face. Thats all I ever got. I can count the times I've been "beaten" on one hand, and they were all the same: a slap to the face. Short, sweet, and to the point. I understood immediately that I had done something wrong, that I had payed for it, and that I could have avoided it, and the following conversation cleared up the point.
    That's good. And to be honest, I got a lot of that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    I don't feel bitter about it, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be an option for others. In fact I'm glad that I got hit a few times. If I had grown up with lax disciplinary standards that some of my classmates "enjoyed" I'd probably be a little shit like them.
    The funny thing is that I'm not talking about being lax. I'm tallking about not being abusive. Physically striking another person is abuse. Period. Try smacking a co-worker to make a point and see how far it gets you. No, I'm serious. Try it.

    Now, if you won't smack a co-worker, why in the hell would you smack your kid?

    What I am talking about is firmly standing your ground without resorting to violence. (Smacking = violence).
    Quote Originally Posted by dfacto
    Come to think of it, our society seems to be suffering from the "little shit" plague more and more, considering the generation a few years below me. Probably has to do with less disciplinary action. Because it's oh so wrong.
    I don't know. Most of those kids are pretty well spanked and punished physcially from what I've seen. But that's my own personal take on things. And remember, I've got issues, dude. Issues LOL

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg. <- still looking for his name tag and candle

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    Jetpack: I've read the article and I can't find where they say you've just got to let them grow out of the phase" type of stuff.
    As I understand the article the say qoute "While lying is a normal aspect of growing up, that does not mean it should be dismissed." Meaning lying is natural.. don't get mad, you as a parent has to work all the time to learn the kid that lying is wrong.
    They suggests the following strategies: model behavior your kid wont do what you say he/she will do what you do in the end. Give your child structure and routine in the home will make the child more secure e.g read goodnight stories every night, limit the time your child may watch the telly. If the child feel secure it will tell the truth more often since lies often comes out of fear of punishment such as the "five across the eye" (read dfacto link ...ok I know it's a joke).Point out the logical consequences of lying e.g by telling the story about the lying boy and the wolf.
    If the child lies make sure they pay the consequences in a way that the child knows it's beacause he/she has lied as in the example "require the child to inform his teacher that he hasn't been giving the notes to his parents and that he is sorry. He can then ask for another note to bring home" You of course already know what's going to be in that letter since you talked with the teacher but the child can't really lie to the teacher about the notes... He lied out of guilt in the first place and making him do this will be like a slap in the face. This is one of the ways to make the child take responsibility for his/hers lies. "the most effective solution is to try to discern what message the child is trying to convey with his lie" As I understand it: If you know why your kid is lying it's easier to put an end to the lies.... you might not have clear structure at home.... beat your kid up... stuff that will make your child insecure... afraid of punishment. If the kid is to be beaten up for whats in the note anyway you will be sure he will lie it's only logical, knowing the reason of the lie will make your long term strategies such as creating a secure enviroment and learning the kid that lying is wrong better and of course in conjunction with the short term strategy stated in the example.

    dfacto: WHen I was really little like five years old i stole some darts at the supermarket. I had been trying to hide them and lying about them but my parents found out and forced me to return the them to the supermarket. I still remember this... a slap in the face would be like Paradise compared to what they forced me to do...shit I still remembers it with fear. I'm against parents hitting their children, but on the other hand forcing them to listen or grabbing them so they wont run away until they cool down so you can talk is ok - hitting them is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    Kids ARE a pain in the ass.
    If there is ONE THING in the universe that's true, that is it!
    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    Active parenting is underrated. props Oregano.
    thanks man. Sorry about hijacking the thread...

    Cheers,
    ~Oreg.

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    msn misinformation dept.

    The people who write this crap (the story in question) are so full of it. I have a hotmail account and I see this sort of thing EVERY time i log in to it. Sometimes MSN's headlines get to me and I click on the links, only to feel a profound emptiness afterward--it's a total sham... Headlines like "Lying is good for kids" are 110% tabloid material. This sort of story doesn't help anyone, really; it only waste's people's time while indulging their need to be riled up by a shocking headline. It gets me plenty of times, rest assured, my idle curiosity satiated but precious moments squandered.

    just my two cents!

    regards,

    the gugg.
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    Oregano:
    I'm not going to get up on a soap box and preach and say "Thou Shalt Not" because I know I'm in the minority, and most will tell me that it was a good thing for them. Glad to hear it, really.
    I guess I'm a part of the same minority since I haven't found a single thing in your texts in this thread that I disagree about.
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