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  1. #1
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    Playstation 3 tidbits

    New word on the PS3 chip set, unfriggnreal.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4051983.stm


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    OMG!
    what are they saying "pc architecture is nearing it's limits"?! i totally disagree with that, the PC is an ever changing piece of technology.
    kutaragi is a moron!
    but then again, this "cell porcessor" sure sounds kickass. but it won't be long till AMD and intel come up with something way better.

    but i never liked sony's PS2. when my brother got it, it always malfunctioned and we always had to send it back and get it replaced and never was good at reading CD and DVD. it was a defective system and often times when a game is pushing it too hard it crashes easily. personally i think any console made by nintendo is the best console. nintendo has always been good at making consoles and they know how to make games (yet, they keep recycling classics like mario)

    still pc gaming is my thing and nintendo is my handheld gaming of choice.
    Last edited by MuffinMan; December 5th, 2004 at 01:37 PM.
    Do you know the muffinman?

    Originally Posted by creatix
    Once you understand what the word "stupid" means - age is no longer a valid excuse for being that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinMan
    OMG!
    what are they saying "pc architecture is nearing it's limits"?! i totally disagree with that, the PC is an ever changing piece of technology.
    kutaragi is a moron!

    Yes, I agree with you. Some random kid on the internet obviously knows way more then the Chief Operating Officer of Sony...

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    But, of course, MuffinMan's entirely entitled to his own opinion, right jetpack?
    ...so what if i'm bored, and ordinary?...

    currently playing: Super Mario 64 DS, ICO (grrrr....)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    Yes, I agree with you. Some random kid on the internet obviously knows way more then the Chief Operating Officer of Sony...
    Ever heard of something called "public relations"?
    Advertising your product, all that junk?
    PC's are switching from AGP (currently 8x faster then original PCI bus)
    to PCI-Express (8x times faster bus then AGP, to start), and implementing multiple core processors, which means that a processor will be able to perform x operations at once, where x is the number of cores, where as currently they can do only 1 operation at once. Thats besides all the other new tech they are coming up with. Oh yeah, PC's are dying, all hail to PS3.

    *edit

    btw, muffinman, he said "Current PC architecture is nearing its limits." That's precisely the case. That's why they are coming up with dual-core processors and other such things. It doesn't mean "oh n0eZ, pC is teh deAdz!!!1", it means that current tech processes reached their limit in development and they are coming up with new tech. Besides, the article clearly states that the cell processors are gonna be used in both PS3 and computers (servers, workstations, etc.), so what the hell is the argument about?
    Last edited by dusty imp; December 5th, 2004 at 04:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil
    But, of course, MuffinMan's entirely entitled to his own opinion, right jetpack?
    I'm not entitled to mine?

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    ...

    but what about the games, what new features will the games have?
    thats the whole point, right?

    wow, it can do a billion math sums at once, but what new inovations can i expect? apart from realistic explosions and huge dull worlds.



    hehe, got a bit carried away, maybe the ps3 will be pretty cool.
    ... oh, bu...but i allready have a dvd player... umm... and a cd player.... and a microwave... and a swiss army knife... ohh....



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    Quote Originally Posted by cartoonfox
    ...

    but what about the games, what new features will the games have?
    thats the whole point, right?

    wow, it can do a billion math sums at once, but what new inovations can i expect? apart from realistic explosions and huge dull worlds.
    see, that's why Nintendo is so great. They don't believe that the technology makes a great system, they believe in the games. Nintendo isn't AS focused on the technical specs of their next gen system as Microsoft and Sony are.

    Nintendo is looking for new innovative ways to play games

    Microsoft/Sony are looking for new ways to make their systems run faster.

    You gotta love the big "N" for that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetpack42
    I'm not entitled to mine?
    I didn't say you weren't. Slapping people with the Eternal Glove of Sarcasm (-5 Charisma) as soon as they say something you disagree with, however, isn't exactly promoting the idea that you stand for people having a right to not have other's opinions forced down their throat.
    ...so what if i'm bored, and ordinary?...

    currently playing: Super Mario 64 DS, ICO (grrrr....)

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    Pretty silly to compare it with current systems since it will be released in 2 years.


    For me it would be enough if they made a worthy sequel to any of the old classic games (which would probably run on a GBA).

    Last game I bought was a Game&Watch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cartoonfox
    ...

    but what about the games, what new features will the games have?
    thats the whole point, right?

    wow, it can do a billion math sums at once, but what new inovations can i expect? apart from realistic explosions and huge dull worlds.



    hehe, got a bit carried away, maybe the ps3 will be pretty cool.
    ... oh, bu...but i allready have a dvd player... umm... and a cd player.... and a microwave... and a swiss army knife... ohh....



    ^-^
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    yeh, i worry 4b0ut t3h g4m3s.
    Do you know the muffinman?

    Originally Posted by creatix
    Once you understand what the word "stupid" means - age is no longer a valid excuse for being that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prometheus|ANJ


    For me it would be enough if they made a worthy sequel to any of the old classic games (which would probably run on a GBA).
    Yes! Also I wish they would port Final Fantasy 6 onto the GBA.

    -JtJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yutani
    btw, muffinman, he said "Current PC architecture is nearing its limits." That's precisely the case. That's why they are coming up with dual-core processors and other such things. It doesn't mean "oh n0eZ, pC is teh deAdz!!!1", it means that current tech processes reached their limit in development and they are coming up with new tech.
    Nailed it.

    Besides that point. All console technologies seem to be "way ahead of its time" when announced....but by the time they actually release it on the market it would seem normal, or lagging behind high end home PCs. Simply put, they HAVE TO use the best technology available at the moment because the PS3 will have to last another 5 years on the market (normal shelf life for most electronic goods). By then (2010) who know PS(?) will be making its debut and computers will be (x) times more powerful that what we have today.

    Its definitely a massive improvement over current era PCs and the PS2, but honestly, all the "revolutionary" hardware they've been touting for every single console release is really evolutionary. Basics of engineering hasn't changed....you can't go smaller than .15 microns for microprocessors and expect zero manufacturing failures...that;s why multi core CPUs are becoming more and more popular (solution for engineers, headaches for programmers).

    Only so many years ago....Ghz speed processors seemed impossible and 6GB HDDs were "as much space as you required".

    And don't forget its the games that make the system....not just the technology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darth massacre
    Besides that point. All console technologies seem to be "way ahead of its time" when announced....but by the time they actually release it on the market it would seem normal, or lagging behind high end home PCs. Simply put, they HAVE TO use the best technology available at the moment because the PS3 will have to last another 5 years on the market (normal shelf life for most electronic goods). By then (2010) who know PS(?) will be making its debut and computers will be (x) times more powerful that what we have today.
    Yep. And it seems developers are loving it. No more compatibility issues, no more writing patches and drivers, no more months of testing to ensure the game runs properly on every joe shmoe's computer and all that. On the downside, you loose all the extensive controls offered by PC's, and target audience goes from 15-30 to about 10-20 year-olds.

    Only so many years ago....Ghz speed processors seemed impossible and 6GB HDDs were "as much space as you required".
    I still remember the liquid nitrogen cooling solution they cam up with for the first 1Ghz Pentium prototype. Users were horrified. "How's it gonna run? It's gonna melt my computer!" More power means more possibilities, and developers are sure taking advantage. The rate at which the size of games grows in terms of Gbites is starting to scare me. Not too many years back you could fit 4-5 games nicely on a 1.5 mb floppy drive.

    And don't forget its the games that make the system....not just the technology.
    The way i see it, soon enough specialized systems (consoles) will drive PC's mostly out of the market. Last big thing PC had going was online gaming, and
    now that consoles are tapping in to that, there isn't much of an advatnage any more. Not to mention the price difference between a conosle and an equivalent PC. And developers are definitely liking developing games for consoles rather then PCs. In 5, 10 years max, gaming PCs will be a very rare breed, with few games ported back from consoles and virtually none made for PCs. I don't think they will last as gaming machines the way things are going.

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    i just cant wait till they make a game where you are actually in it. like in the anime .hack// where your in a world and you can level up or just roam arround. enough of the buttn mashing. i wanna live it. as long as its free tho. im cheap
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    The next generation will rock for the Techno-Savey ... everything will be crazy-uber powerfull...

    But honestly the industry is getting convoluted, so many publishers pushing cramware shit out the door as quick as possible .... it's starting to look like the last days of the Atari (when it about crumbled the industry) ... right before Nintendo launched the NES, and set some examples...

    I plan on getting all the newest systems... but honestly I can't wait to see what Nintendo has in store...
    When the industry gets the way it is right now, Nintendo is always there, like some father figure ... giving all companies a healthy directing hand.

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    There is one little detail that nobody talks about: how much will it cost to develop games for the new consoles?

    Right now I think the average game development budget is 5 million dollars, going up to 20 mil for big projects and even 40 mil in the case of Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy (I'm not sure about those numbers).

    Now if they sell a console that's say 5 times more powerful than a ps2, buyers are going to expect a lot more from it which means it's going to take a lot more time and effort to develop engines (although the consoles will probably have a lot of built-in effects like the current high end graphic cards) and more than anything an incredible amount of assets. For example your average game character now is about 5000-10000 polys (for an adventure action game). If the new console can push 50k polys characters with normal mappings (per pixel shading) that means that it's going to take waaayyyy more time to create the character models - let's say maybe 20 or 30 days compared to the average 10 days now.

    So now you can see the problem that developpers and publishers are going to face: if they want to produce something on-par with the new technology they are going either to have development times multiplied by 3 (which would be ridiculous considering that some games take already 3 to 5 years to make) or they will have to spend 3 times (or more) money to make it! Since those games will probably still sell for something like $50 (or maybe 70) that means every developper and publisher is actually going to LOSE money on every next generation project, compared to a current generation one! That's a conumdrum.
    One solution would be an explosion of the market with a lot more people playing and buying games but i doubt there will be a 300% increase in the market in the next 5 years.
    Another solution, and I think that's where we are going, would be to find a place where you can develop games for five times cheaper than in the US and Europe, like for example China and India. All the big publishers are already moving to those countries and to Eastern Europe/Russia.

    The next generation consoles are going to change a lot of things and will probably destroy established developpers and publishers. They could also kill creativity (who wants to risk so much money on an unproved concept?) and severely limit the market.
    One thing they won't change though is gameplay quality, something that is about dead right now (every game seems to be either a dark military FPS, a colorful licensed platformer, or some sport franchise). Like a lot of people said in this thread it's all about the games, not about the technology, but the system, driven by giant corporations, always want to go for what's new and shiny rather than what's good and well-made. Techno-lust is the industry sin.

    In a funny sort of way the whole industry is creating its own little crisis and everybody, console manufacturers included, is going to suffer dearly in the incoming years. For anybody working in the industry that's a grim perspective.
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    reading all of that is a workout. you got valid points there to be considered. im so tired.. i think im gonna go sleep.
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    Aw c'mon dude, join the fun! Where's the fun in sleeping?
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    Now if they sell a console that's say 5 times more powerful than a ps2, buyers are going to expect a lot more from it which means it's going to take a lot more time and effort to develop engines (although the consoles will probably have a lot of built-in effects like the current high end graphic cards) and more than anything an incredible amount of assets. For example your average game character now is about 5000-10000 polys (for an adventure action game). If the new console can push 50k polys characters with normal mappings (per pixel shading) that means that it's going to take waaayyyy more time to create the character models - let's say maybe 20 or 30 days compared to the average 10 days now.
    Actually no, not quite.
    As you might know, models in doom 3 average 5k polygons plus mapping.
    That was done by originally creating a model with up to a million polygons and then using it to create the bump-map. Or, in case of final fantasy, super-detailed ultra-high poly models are made for cutsecenes, and regular poly models are made for the ingame. So either way, it will take roughly the same time. Developing a bigger better physics engine, however, is a whole other story, that will indeed take a while longer.

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    you get way more freedom with higher poly models...way easier to build something that doesn't go all wonky when you move joints...weighting might take a while longer, but not by much.
    Plus, technology isn't only improving for consoles, it's improving for the developers too...with every new version of most 3d software packages we get more and more specialized tools.

    ...systems will probably be able to handle real time lighting better too, so texturing will get easier.
    ...and by then there are going to be hardcore verterans doing the models.
    I had a teacher who could bust out a totally badass high poly model in 3 days...and then he would come into class and practically rebuild the parts from scratch in a couple 4 hour demos.

    I don't think there'll be much of a crisis at all.
    Less time will have to be spent making things economical so far as polycounts are concerned too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by black_fish
    Another solution, and I think that's where we are going, would be to find a place where you can develop games for five times cheaper than in the US and Europe, like for example China and India. All the big publishers are already moving to those countries and to Eastern Europe/Russia.
    That's already beeing done. You sent the assignment, CA, infoz, etc to a guy in china and he makes the model ... WELL.
    /fd
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    Allow me to disagree...

    Yutani: As you might know, models in doom 3 average 5k polygons plus mapping.
    That was done by originally creating a model with up to a million polygons and then using it to create the bump-map.


    So you think that making a 1 million poly model is going to take less time than doing a 5k one? The fact that the final model is 5k doesn't mean anything as long as you have to spend the time doing the 1 million one! And that's going to take massive amounts of time...

    NoUseFrAName:
    Plus, technology isn't only improving for consoles, it's improving for the developers too...with every new version of most 3d software packages we get more and more specialized tools.

    If I had a buck for every time I heard that one I'd be rich! Thing is this is totally untrue. The tools available now (Max, Maya, XSI, etc) are already too limited for a lot of game production which is why everybody is now rushing to ZBrush as a quick fix on how to do those new high poly models in an efficient way. ZBrush is better at modelling than all the other but it's the panacea - it still takes a lot of time to do a model.

    NoUseFrAName:...systems will probably be able to handle real time lighting better too, so texturing will get easier.
    ...and by then there are going to be hardcore verterans doing the models.


    Yes texturing could be easier in regard to painting shadows and such but it's quiclky going to become harder when you have to for example realistic looking skin, hair, fur, etc....
    As for the hardcore veterans I don't know where they are. In most companies I know there is nobody with more than 4 years of experience at a production level- most of the veterans are either gone or in a management position. And I know at least one big developper with a policy of hiring only people with very little experience (because they can be paid less, more likely to accept insane hours and to not speak up). And why not? Maybe you've heard about the lawsuits against EA LA for unpaid overtime. Why would EA or any other US developer risk lawsuits and problems by hiring costly veterans? Better hire unexperienced star struck artists or, even better, third world employees.

    That doesn't bid well in my opinion for the 'hard core veterans'. If your teacher can really do a model in 3 days I really don't know why he is teaching: he could make a fortune by modeling, even in freelance.
    I guess if you have a teacher that means you are studying to become a game artist and I understand your reaction. You probably won;t believe me when I say that but I think there are unfortunately very little chances you will ever find a job in this industry. As Floris Didden was saying the outsourcing is already happening. An example of that: Ubisoft and EA have opened studios in China, Rythm and Hues is creating one in India. And just to make my point check the career corner at AWN.com and you will see how many ads are now in India, Fiji, Malaysia and other weird places.
    This is not the end but there is a crisis brewing.
    But of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong
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    So you think that making a 1 million poly model is going to take less time than doing a 5k one? The fact that the final model is 5k doesn't mean anything as long as you have to spend the time doing the 1 million one! And that's going to take massive amounts of time...
    You misunderstood.
    They did have to make 1 million poly models for doom 3, then use them to make bump-mapped 5 k poly models. So they already are making high poly models. My point is, perceived transition to higher polygon models won't change a thing because they already have to make them for current games.

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    By 'them' Yutani I guess you mean ID?

    Do you know how long it took them to do Doom 3? As far as I know at least 3 years. This is a very special case, and I'm sure that ID will carry on the way they do.

    I was talking about regular outfits (95% of the industry) out there that are definitely NOT doing ID level of art and have at best 18 months to do a game. Those people are going to hurt when they realize that for a next-gen console project they will have to do ID/Valve/SquareEnix level of work! I can tell you that nobody is rwady for that.

    When you have been doing 10,000 poly objects for the last 4 years and somebody walks in asking for a 1 million one that's a big change!

    But it's all poetic justice: people in the game industry have been touting 'Toy Story' like graphics for the next generation consoles.... now they're going to realize that to do that kind of graphics Pixar is spending 150 million dollars and 3 or 4 years with hundreds of people just to produce 2 hours worth of CG!
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    That doesn't bid well in my opinion for the 'hard core veterans'. If your teacher can really do a model in 3 days I really don't know why he is teaching: he could make a fortune by modeling, even in freelance.
    well, while Joe was teaching our class, he was also working for Mainframe as a modeller...and I think he also did animation and texturing too. He's an XSI master.(my other good XSI prof, Scott did animating and lighting for Mainframe as well-while he was teaching)

    he started teaching at the school like 2 semesters after he graduated. He was there for probably 3 or 4 semesters, and then he got hired on some feature film being made in France.(so did Scott-but Scott decided to stay and finish the semester with us)
    ..so he's not teaching anymore as far as I know.


    ...and XSI is an absolutely great package for high poly modelling. Certain tools that it has make the modelling workflow just outstanding...plus the subdivision modes...it's great for moving back & forth between low & high poly versions of things. But maybe I just say that because I've watched Joe's workflow.
    I guess the rest of XSI isn't really designed for games & stuff...but I'm sure with a few more versions they'll have even more for gamer stuff,

    (oh, and I wasn't doing game stuff when I was at school, I did more film oriented 3d animation and classical animation. All my roommates were gamers though, so I got a pretty good look at what all goes into it....not to mention I did 90% of the concept art that they needed for their projects heh.)


    ...a few other things...
    1.high poly models I think can be reused for parts way more than low poly ones.
    with a high poly face, you can reuse the same geometry to make a different face quite easily with a few proportion adjustments....same goes for bodies.
    I haven't really done any low poly stuff, but from what I've seen, the fact that they're so low poly makes the geometry have to be very custom to the character...to expand the proportions a lot would just give you something wierd.

    2.there are film modellers that could make the jump to games pretty easily. I think a lot of the people I went to school with actually have decided to pursue jobs in games rather than film.

    it's not such a dire situation as you're making it to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denart
    see, that's why Nintendo is so great. They don't believe that the technology makes a great system, they believe in the games. Nintendo isn't AS focused on the technical specs of their next gen system as Microsoft and Sony are.

    Nintendo is looking for new innovative ways to play games

    Microsoft/Sony are looking for new ways to make their systems run faster.

    You gotta love the big "N" for that!

    Yeah, with thier revolutionary game concepts like Mario, and Zelda, and Metroid. The Big "N" is just as tired as the rest of them, the way I see it. While Sony and Microsoft work on pushing the technical specs past feasability, Nintendo will figure out how to let people play games with thier ears. I can predict it now...when the next system comes out, you'll have Mario 5million: Run around and collect stuff.

    Neither is very interesting to me. I want to go somewhere I've never gone, be somebody I've never been, fight badguys I've never heard of, and do things I've never done; preferrably with my friends over the internet. I don't care if it looks like a trillion bucks, or if It's got seperate control pads for my hands, feet, and buttcheeks.

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    I would love a butt cheek controller Mike, that would be sick!!

    I don't know, I blame the lack of imagination in games on the developer's as much as the consumer's. I remember the garage games from the 80's when independent game developers would try new concepts out and sell games in little plastic bags. Everything is now $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to the nth degree. If you have a truly revolutionary concept, prepare to not have it see the day of light. I want to see more rehashed fighting games, Gran Turismo 40000, Grand Theft Auto: Alpha Centauri, Sims 300, Battlefield: Caveman vs. Dinosaurs, on and on and on. This is why I can't really play games anymore. I wish I could be excited about games and new consoles but I'm not.

    A lot of developers seem to need to draw people in with things like turning a hand held game system into a cell-phone so when someone purchases it, it will be atleast be useful for something after everyone figures out how crappy it really is.

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    Battlefield: Caveman vs. Dinosaurs
    Best thing that has come out of this thread.

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    By 'them' Yutani I guess you mean ID?
    Them, SquareEnix, and some other companies that i don't recall offhand.

    Do you know how long it took them to do Doom 3? As far as I know at least 3 years. This is a very special case, and I'm sure that ID will carry on the way they do.

    I was talking about regular outfits (95% of the industry) out there that are definitely NOT doing ID level of art and have at best 18 months to do a game. Those people are going to hurt when they realize that for a next-gen console project they will have to do ID/Valve/SquareEnix level of work! I can tell you that nobody is rwady for that.
    True, but when you think about it games are already taking damn long.
    Used to be that a game would be done in half a year, year tops.
    Nowdays its always at least a couple of years. The problem is, while games take longer, and cost more, they also have to bring in more money, otherwise they won't pay off. The only games that will be able to do that is either big franchises, lika Blizzard's, or mmorpgs.

    But it's all poetic justice: people in the game industry have been touting 'Toy Story' like graphics for the next generation consoles.... now they're going to realize that to do that kind of graphics Pixar is spending 150 million dollars and 3 or 4 years with hundreds of people just to produce 2 hours worth of CG!
    Well, it is a good thing for us artists, right?

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