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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianworx View Post
    I didn't work neatly and precisely enough.
    This!
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  4. #32
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    I have a bunch of other stuff to attend to today, so probably won't have time for more than a few things. Some boxes (they're rather wonky and I need to practice them quite a bit more):

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    And a few more pseudoskeletons:

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    I got a bit frustrated with the Loomis manikin. The "cape" he puts over the shoulders renders the shoulder blades invisible, and I want to know what they are doing when the arms move. At this point, I'm kind of wildly guessing! :-)

    My general feeling at this point (though I may change my mind any time) is that Loomis' manikin is way too complex for a beginner. I'm going to simplify the thing even more for a while and see where it gets me.

  5. #33
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    Draw more basic primitives and commit to making them as correct as possible . Your drawings of the basic shapes representing the body parts are so bad perspective wise that your figure will end up looking bad

    what the heck is the design of the stool the dude sitting on .
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  7. #34
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    I absolutely support your approach
    Haha, yes there's such things as frustrated fun, I feel it every time I art xD

    Wishing you much luck and fun with your great progression

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    Draw more basic primitives and commit to making them as correct as possible . Your drawings of the basic shapes representing the body parts are so bad perspective wise that your figure will end up looking bad

    what the heck is the design of the stool the dude sitting on .
    I am in the process of going through those draw-a-box exercises that I was referred to; I will do bazillions of them. Hopefully that will help. I find it very difficult to visualize things like rib cages or pelvises in perspective, even Loomis' simplified ones, which is why, at least for a while, I will perhaps stick to even simpler shapes, perhaps visualizing both rib cage and pelvis as blocks. I'll see how it works out.

    In the case of those wonky stools, I was focusing on the models rather than the stools, plus I was in a hurry because I had other matters to attend to, but you are correct: I should take such objects as further opportunity to draw simple shapes. Over the years that I have been drawing I have done it in the Betty Edwards sort of way. It's a technique that works, but it is also rather limiting, I think, and I see now that over time it becomes a bad habit to always resort to it. We'll see whether the exercises I am now engaged in will help to resolve some of these issues.

    Thanks for the input! Not sure I'll get around to much this weekend, but next week I'll be back at it...

  10. #36
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    You can get Blender or the Maya student version ( which basically comes with full featyures except you can't do anything commercially with it ) . Spend an hour or 2 understanding how to create and morph basic shapes , setup basic fill light , create a camera and it will help you make ref for your drawing.

    I would say that if you can't make decent looking lines , drawing acceptable shapes perspective wise . Don't go for anything more complex because it will just come abck to bite you.


    It may sound harsh, but it's really the reality of 2D. I would rather say it upfront and tell you to spend a lot of energy tackling it ( which does not take much time if you do it seriously, it's just boring ) than leave it there to curse you for years and years before you give in and go back to doing it properly
    Last edited by GPhong; June 8th, 2018 at 11:13 PM.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    You can get Blender or the Maya student version ( which basically comes with full featyures except you can't do anything commercially with it ) . Spend an hour or 2 understanding how to create and morph basic shapes , setup basic fill light , create a camera and it will help you make ref for your drawing.

    I would say that if you can't make decent looking lines , drawing acceptable shapes perspective wise . Don't go for anything more complex because it will just come abck to bite you.


    It may sound harsh, but it's really the reality of 2D. I would rather say it upfront and tell you to spend a lot of energy tackling it ( which does not take much time if you do it seriously, it's just boring ) than leave it there to curse you for years and years before you give in and go back to doing it properly
    I have played with Blender years ago; I suppose it's easy enough to download it again. I have to wonder though, whether it is not an even better idea to draw from physical objects rather than ones on a screen...

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianworx View Post
    I have played with Blender years ago; I suppose it's easy enough to download it again. I have to wonder though, whether it is not an even better idea to draw from physical objects rather than ones on a screen...
    It's just incredibly easy to check an image of a cube rendered than from real life, you just to overlay your image of the 3D cubes on top and it will show you all your mistakes. Perspective is essentially physic, and physic consists of doing math . 3D softwares can exist because smart people have figured out the math and written the codes .

    I feel like people tend to overglorify drawing from life . yes it's a physical object existing in the real world , it can't get more real than that. But if you cannot troubleshoot your exercise and figure out what's wrong , and you don't have a teacher there to point out your mistake either and people giving feedbacks online are usually about as clueless as you are then it's not very helpful isn't it.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  15. #39
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    More blocks. In the last set, I experimented a bit with their shapes. Ballpoint is a nice medium for this sort of sketch, but it has a tendency to suddenly slip!

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    Try as I might, I simply cannot visualize the shapes of the rib cage and pelvis inside the body...

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    I'll have to go think about what it is that goes wrong. Impressions thus far: I need to go check out what the rib cage looks like in isolation, from various angles. I can't even do that yet, so perhaps it's too early to expect to be able to "see" it in a body, particularly with some of the fatter models on my photos. And I'll need to push as fast as I can with the draw-a-box exercises, because they eventually get to ones in which you practice drawing organic shapes inside boxes. I need to break out of the 2D habit and learn to think in three dimensions.

    Well, enough philosophy. Back to the drawing board...

  16. #40
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    Get a ruler and check your drawing
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  18. #41
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    Also , working from boxes is the easiest way to do perspective. If your boxes are screwed up , edges pointing at multiple vanishing points, then whatever you draw will look wrong


    Brianworx sketchbook
    Brianworx sketchbook

    Credit : Krenz Cushart
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  20. #42
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    The box exercise was the one in which he instructs you to not construct your perspective lines but to estimate them. I'm surprised to see I got any of them reasonably close! But it's an exercise I will be doing lots of. It is changing the whole way in which I look at things; I now find myself constantly looking at people and objects around me in a new way.

  21. #43
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    Yeah i told to check using a ruler , not using a ruler to connect 2 dots on a page
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  23. #44
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    Another bunch of boxes:

    Name:  2018 0611_100617.jpg
Views: 677
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    I took far more care here with "ghosting" lines before drawing them, than I did in the previous set. Checking with a ruler, I think I have achieved somewhat better aim towards the vanishing points, but a lot of the lines are still wildly off. This tends to happen particularly with lines close to the horizontal; I tend to make the angles too steep, for some reason. Perhaps the boxes "look right" that way? But they are all wrong. I am getting ever more enthusiastic about these box exercises, because they have now diagnosed lots of problems I never even knew I had in the first place, and the diagnosis is the first step towards cure.

    I did a rough, exploratory sketch of the rotated boxes exercise to get a feel for what it is about:

    Name:  2018 0611_115107.jpg
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    Very wonky, but then, I was not trying to work very accurately. I eyeballed everything, and my eyeballing has never been much good. For the next attempt, I'll take more care, now that I know more about what the whole thing is about and how to go about it.

    And some rough sketches, trying to make sense of the torso:

    Name:  2018 0611_134100.jpg
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    I'm having a very hard time indeed trying to rotate the shapes in my mind. In fact, I can't do it at all. Still, disastrous as these sketches turned out, they are definitely making some gears turn in my head, and I already have ideas for how to better approach the problem with the next set. I do think I should perhaps first spend much more time on the boxes, mind you. I'm beginning to think they are key to developing an ability to rotate things in my head.

  24. #45
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    A bunch of simple geometric and organic shapes - trying to force my lazy mind to think of things in terms of three dimensions...

    Name:  2018 0611_160623.jpg
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  25. #46
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    More boxes. Here and there the lines are still completely off, but I think my aim for the vanishing point here is an improvement on the previous batch:

    Name:  2018 0612_100127.jpg
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    Another go at the rotated boxes. I took more care with measurement, but I'm not sure it's actually much of an improvement! The outer boxes are not nearly rotated enough. I do think something has clicked now though. We'll see when I do another one:

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    Some exploratory doodles, trying to work up a very stylized box model for the rib cage. Might be easier to use for the moment:
    Name:  2018 0612_123650.jpg
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    And using such simplified shapes to analyze photos. The sketches themselves are pretty awkward, but as with the rotated boxes, I felt something perhaps clicked:

    Name:  2018 0612_131333.jpg
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  26. #47
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    Did another one of the rotated boxes. This time I followed the instruction to do everything freehand, apart from the horizontal and vertical line. When I work without measuring, things tend to go askew! I also tried working from the inside out instead of following the instruction to draw the outer boxes first to "have something to aim at." I don't think this really mattered one way or the other. The thing is still wonky and some boxes not rotated remotely correctly, but I declare it progress. This time round, instead of just mechanically going through the motions, I tried to visualize the boxes before drawing them, imagining them in space. It seems to have helped a bit, and is in any event the whole point of the exercise. I'll do plenty more of these.

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    On the the next exercise, namely the boxes arranged along an organic line. I don't think I really understand this exercise. There is a page that the author refers to here:

    https://drawabox.com/viewimage/lesso...erspective.jpg

    in which he has an example of boxes drawn wrong. The problem is, I cannot see anything wrong with them. At all. Not even after reading his explanation, and despite the fact that he implies that there is something obviously off about the drawing, which anyone can see. I don't know what to do about that other than do plenty more. Perhaps my eye will improve to the point where I will notice such things, or perhaps not. Understand or not, I took a first stab at the exercise.

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    And then some more analysis of photos via pseudoskeletons. These remain challenging: I am trying to visualize a structure I don't really know from angles at which I have never seen it before, inside a body. Perhaps no wonder that I struggle a bit! Still, it seems to me as if I am slowly making some progress. I expect I'll keep on doing these for many months, perhaps learning something about the skeleton along the way.

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  27. #48
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    Ah, at last - CA is back online. Boxes, boxes and more boxes:

    Name:  2018 0614_100635.jpg
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    And another analysis of a photo, this time slowly beginning to look into actual anatomy here and there:

    Name:  2018 0614_102157.jpg
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    It's pretty challenging, trying to see internal structures in there, or taking features from an anatomy book and then trying to imagine what they look like from a different angle. Hopefully I'm learning something in the process...

  28. #49
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    Cylinders are easy and more handy when it comes to arms and legs . Helps showing perspective and easier to do then bones.

    Skeletons are pretty useless tbh
    Brianworx sketchbook
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  30. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    Cylinders are easy and more handy when it comes to arms and legs . Helps showing perspective and easier to do then bones.

    Skeletons are pretty useless tbh
    I'll experiment a bit and see what happens. Some have told me it is actually more fundamental to know the skeleton than almost anything else. Others tell me the opposite! I suspect one should try out all manner of things and see what works, because what works for one may not necessarily work for another.

    Cylinders are definitely easier to visualize in perspective; on the other hand, the limbs are not perfectly straight cylinders, and the skeleton tells one something about the subtle curve.

    Loomis' manikin is sort of midway between a skeleton and a manikin with cylinder limbs, and as such is perhaps a bit confusing. Anyway, I'll likely study everything, from the skeleton to the muscles to cylindrical abstractions.

  31. #51
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    You modify the cyclinder shape to suit your desired shape of the arm
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  33. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianworx View Post
    Some have told me it is actually more fundamental to know the skeleton than almost anything else. Others tell me the opposite! I suspect one should try out all manner of things and see what works, because what works for one may not necessarily work for another.
    The skeleton is essential for studying anatomy, as it is the foundation for all muscles. However, all you need is an abstraction that shows the necessary origins and insertions; http://www.proko.com is a great example of what you're aiming at. Don't waste your time on each and every nook and cranny of the human skeleton. On the other hand, if you are happy with a cartoony rendering of the human body, you might as well stick to some mannikin.

    In art school, I have wasted a year or so of my life making beautiful drawings of bones in anatomy and even animal drawing, guided by teachers who knew little more than how to critique a bone drawing. The school had a good collection of bones, often the real thing, and they made kids believe that it was so much better to draw the real bone instead of a plastic copy, in a feeble attempt to monetize their bone collection. Do not fall into this trap!
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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  35. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque View Post
    The skeleton is essential for studying anatomy, as it is the foundation for all muscles. However, all you need is an abstraction that shows the necessary origins and insertions; http://www.proko.com is a great example of what you're aiming at. Don't waste your time on each and every nook and cranny of the human skeleton. On the other hand, if you are happy with a cartoony rendering of the human body, you might as well stick to some mannikin.

    In art school, I have wasted a year or so of my life making beautiful drawings of bones in anatomy and even animal drawing, guided by teachers who knew little more than how to critique a bone drawing. The school had a good collection of bones, often the real thing, and they made kids believe that it was so much better to draw the real bone instead of a plastic copy, in a feeble attempt to monetize their bone collection. Do not fall into this trap!
    Yeah, I have noticed that some anatomy books have pages full of highly detailed illustrations of every single bone, and I think that is more than is necessary (though perhaps perfectly interesting to study in itself). My intuition tells me the really important bits are those that influence the surface form, such as the shoulders and knees. Those things are really difficult to draw if you do not understand them.

    When I look at the work of artists who are really good at figure drawing, it is pretty clear that they have a very detailed knowledge of anatomy, which is why I don't want to skimp on it too much, though obviously I don't want to do huge amounts of unnecessary work either. But I suspect here too much of it one learns via experience.

    I have a book titled Classic Human Anatomy by Valerie Winslow, that I got very cheaply years ago. It looks pretty good: lots of info but not endlessly cluttered with detail, and also quite a lot of information on such things as proportions and simplifying the figure.

  36. #54
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    You might want to try drawing objects from life, I am a beginner and I found this helpful.

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  38. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolves1234 View Post
    You might want to try drawing objects from life, I am a beginner and I found this helpful.
    True. I have been doing that for ages though. Problem is, up to now I have tended to approach all drawing and painting from the observational viewpoint, conceiving of images to be built up of interlocking shapes. It's not a wrong way to go about it, but it is very limiting, and after decades of doing it that way, it has become an ingrained habit, so now I have great difficult trying to imagine things in 3D. I think the draw-a-box exercises will help a great deal with that.

    Speaking of which, I had days of work and social obligations that I hate but couldn't get out of, but finally managed to get back to the draw-a-box thing. Some ribbon exercises:

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    And I made a start on the 250 boxes challenge:

    Name:  2018 0619_112007.jpg
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    I have already learned something from it, namely that I'm bad at drawing boxes! We'll see whether all the practice will have some effect...

  39. #56
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    get 3d to check your boxes man. You parallel lines are not converging at all
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  41. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    get 3d to check your boxes man. You parallel lines are not converging at all
    That is overkill, a basic perspective construction will do.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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  43. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque View Post
    That is overkill, a basic perspective construction will do.
    You'll never know if you don't go
    You'll never shine if you don't glow

    It's easier than you think. Take like half an hour watching tutorials on how to make basic primitives , import model , set up a simple camera array, simple lighting and where to find the render button.
    Brianworx sketchbook


    Everything I ever say is pretty much about methods of quick learning and troubleshooting that is independent of other people. How do you know if your VPs are too close or too far ?

    And this is not simple at all
    Brianworx sketchbook

    compared to this
    Brianworx sketchbook

    You can just decide what angle you want your box or whatever shape to be at , draw it then compare to the 3d ref which is taken by pressing a few button after having set up the camera array, then just overlay the thing on top , note your mistake.

    Work for more compliated stuffs like heads too
    Brianworx sketchbook
    Last edited by GPhong; June 19th, 2018 at 07:40 AM.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  45. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    It's easier than you think. Take like half an hour watching tutorials on how to make basic primitives , import model , set up a simple camera array, simple lighting and where to find the render button.
    These are not necessary for constructing a simple box.

    Everything I ever say is pretty much about methods of quick learning and troubleshooting that is independent of other people. How do you know if your VPs are too close or too far ?
    This follows from basic perspective setup, but is not necessary for constructing a simple box.

    And this is not simple at all
    Brianworx sketchbook

    compared to this
    Brianworx sketchbook
    The point of the exercise is not to construct a box in perspective, it is all about building the relevant muscle memory.
    Constructing whatever you want in 3D software, teaches you nothing about the basics of drawing.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque View Post
    These are not necessary for constructing a simple box.



    This follows from basic perspective setup, but is not necessary for constructing a simple box.



    The point of the exercise is not to construct a box in perspective, it is all about building the relevant muscle memory.
    Constructing whatever you want in 3D software, teaches you nothing about the basics of drawing.
    You can argue any way you want . What I'm offering is an easy , accessible, reliable way of figuring out mistakes and correct them . You mention muscle memory , and I'm offering a way to correct the muscle memory easily when it goes wrong . Using 3D , overlaying shows one's tendency to draw something too flat or too warped .


    You are arguing on theory . I'm giving an accessible solution . If you have another way of troubleshooting with high reliability then feel free to share. I may not have the best solution out there but keep saying it doesn't work when you haven't tried and offer no better alternative is not very helpful

    The guy has a problem he might not even know . His boxes look wrong, parallel lines are either non-coverging has very far apart vanishing points. And this will carry onto every single thing he is going to draw , his rib cages show symptoms of this because they are all flat and he cannot figure out what is the correct image

    People are not going to take the time to take apart every single drawing, pointing out every single mistake . That's why I'm giving him a way to find out the mistakes , correct them and improve faster, all by himself
    Last edited by GPhong; June 19th, 2018 at 07:55 AM.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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