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  1. #1
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    How can I "test" if my work is derivative work or if it is original enough..

    ...to be my own creation?
    I try to understand Copyright but it is not easy.
    In the Long run I want to be able to draw Hobbyist Comics that please me.
    But even without doing it as a Commercial Thing, i want to be able to call the Comic my own creation.
    Fanart is not really that interesting for me.

    I do lots of figure drawings with photoreference and I hope that it helps me.
    The Kind of Comic i want to draw will have lots of Action, so for some very specific poses it would be nice to use some references even for the Comics themselves and not only for my drawing excercises.
    But there is a thin line between stealing and referencing.
    I definitively dont want to steal.
    But how can I by myself be sure if my work is derivative or original when I use references?
    I did a Picture where I used boxing battle photos.
    In the original the two Boxers were fighting. In my Version I replaced the gloves with Hands, changed the Position of the fighters in a very subtle way, added new faces, clothes, someone had a cloak in my Version.
    The proportions were changed too.
    But the pose and the perspective werent changed or only a Little.
    I often have These Moments where I am unsure about that stuff.

    Being good at drawing isnt too important for me, though I often feel different about this. I dont plan to become a professional anyways.
    I still want to practice a lot, but is there a way to ask professionals to look at my Pictures (for example sending the Pictures per email etc) to be sure if my work is derivative or original?
    I know a professional Illustrator. She said that she often uses poses from Pictures she doesnt own but changes a lot during the drawing process.
    I want to be sure that my work is changed enough but since there is no formula to this- How can someone ever use references without having to fear some legal Action or at least Drama in some way??


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by HannesWurst View Post
    ...to be my own creation?
    I try to understand Copyright but it is not easy.
    Copyright can be hard, which is why in complex cases matter is fought in court.

    In the Long run I want to be able to draw Hobbyist Comics that please me.
    But even without doing it as a Commercial Thing, i want to be able to call the Comic my own creation.
    Fanart is not really that interesting for me.
    Wise decision to stay away from fan art.

    I do lots of figure drawings with photoreference and I hope that it helps me.
    The Kind of Comic i want to draw will have lots of Action, so for some very specific poses it would be nice to use some references even for the Comics themselves and not only for my drawing excercises.
    But there is a thin line between stealing and referencing.
    I definitively dont want to steal.
    Agreed.

    But how can I by myself be sure if my work is derivative or original when I use references?
    I did a Picture where I used boxing battle photos.
    In the original the two Boxers were fighting. In my Version I replaced the gloves with Hands, changed the Position of the fighters in a very subtle way, added new faces, clothes, someone had a cloak in my Version.
    The proportions were changed too.
    But the pose and the perspective werent changed or only a Little.
    I often have These Moments where I am unsure about that stuff.
    I cannot give my definite verdict without seeing your art, but as far as I know you cannot copyright a pose or perspective.

    Being good at drawing isnt too important for me, though I often feel different about this. I dont plan to become a professional anyways.
    I still want to practice a lot, but is there a way to ask professionals to look at my Pictures (for example sending the Pictures per email etc) to be sure if my work is derivative or original?
    In complex cases you will need to spend money on a lawyer, but I guess people here at the forum are knowledgeable enough to tell you whether your case is complex or not.

    I know a professional Illustrator. She said that she often uses poses from Pictures she doesnt own but changes a lot during the drawing process.
    I want to be sure that my work is changed enough but since there is no formula to this- How can someone ever use references without having to fear some legal Action or at least Drama in some way??
    Shoot your own reference, or walk the thin line between using reference and copying.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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    In complex cases you will need to spend money on a lawyer, but I guess people here at the forum are knowledgeable enough to tell you whether your case is complex or not.

    But for that I would have to post the photo references and also my Picture. But wouldnt that be illegal too?Can I even ask These questions without getting in Trouble?
    I would like to find out if my cases would be more complex or simple to be honest.

    Shoot your own reference, or walk the thin line between using reference and copying.

    Using Photo References I dont own seems to be really really dangerous.
    I guess it will get more and more dangerous in the following years since we have so many debates about art and ethics These times.
    This sounds so dangerous, that I guess taking Pictures of myself and using the 3d stuff might be better + my drawing excercises would be at least safe.
    I guess my drawing experiences will be more joyful when I buy a camera. I also could draw Comic Panels again and again and try to get it right and then take the best Picture in the end.
    Maybe my Pictures will still be shit, but at least no one would be able to Point a finger to me for using their Content in a way they dont like.

    But it is really depressing to often read that referencing is okay, but in the end even referencing a pose is considered a bad behaviour.
    So the truth seems to be: Yes, referencing is okay, but only if the end product is 100% different.
    Then- Why dont we just say tracing is NOT okay?

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    you could learn to draw things from construction plenty of comic artists do that without swiping stuff. Also you could buy a mannequin that will give you the basic pose like this one or this one if the phicen is too expensive and then finish it from your imagination

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HannesWurst View Post
    But for that I would have to post the photo references and also my Picture. But wouldnt that be illegal too?Can I even ask These questions without getting in Trouble?


    It is okay to post pictures with reference to the original artist.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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    you could learn to draw things from construction plenty of comic artists do that without swiping stuf
    Could you tell me a good construction tutorial or something? So far neither andrew loomis nor drawabox helped me to be able to draw People from Imagination.
    For now it seems impossible to learn this and it is also frustrating that some People can swipe without getting in Trouble while other People take the hard road.
    But I would like to learn more !

    Also you could buy a mannequin that will give you the basic pose like this
    one
    or this
    one
    if the phicen is too expensive and then finish it from your Imagination
    Looks at least helpful. I would like to buy one in the future.

  8. #7
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    It is okay to post pictures with reference to the original artist.

    Okay, I hope that is true.
    Okay... now Comes the test:
    Original
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    My own Picture (i know it is ugly, but that is not the Point here): I did i t on paper
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    Would People be able to hold me accountable for stuff like this?
    At least the light is coming from another direction, the proportions are changed, the clothes and facial expressions are changed, they have no gloves anymore...

    It seems in the Comic book world People like Greg land and rob liefeld did this stuff and People hate it.
    But at least no one sued them??
    I mean they are professionals, since I am not... maybe that makes a difference.
    I am still not sure how to deal with this stuff.
    Maybe ugly constructed figures, 3d models, a plastic manequinn, and Pictures of my self (a skinny dude with orthopedic issues which are visible (i dont know the english term for them)) will be the only "good" solution.
    I dont want to take stuff away I am not supposed to take.

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  11. #9
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    I think you're safe on this one.
    Oh thank you.
    Do you think I should take that with a grain of salt?
    Or do you think it is a safe opinion?
    Do you think I should shy away from "swiping" or what it is called (the Thing i did with this Picture in my last post) or do you think I just have to do it in a "smart" way?
    I mean I know a professional who does this. I like her stuff.

    Do you have any additional tips for me? That construction Thing might be worth to take into consideration. Also taking Pictures of myself.
    I mean it wouldnt be too good, I am not a model, but I am at least not as lifeless as my 3D Models (but I could use them as a second reference), also I could ask my friends. I know a great guy who maybe would do this, he is a good friend and he did some sword Holding poses for me.

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    Name:  1151111158_95vAS-X3.jpg
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    Now the last one for today. This one was rushed. That is why it Looks so embarassing.
    First I did some gesture drawings:
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    Then I did a different pose based on this and it became shit:
    Name:  img20180424_22352886.png
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    Then I did a Drawing based on the photo. It Looks very embarassing, but with some changes I could even like it.
    I wanted to Show the dominance of the one guy over the over guy. The weaker guy should look desperately.
    Name:  img20180424_22312605.png
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    But I guess-
    That this pose is just too specific to be referenced entirely.
    Is it derivative or not? I mean, i didnt even Change the pose of the Hands. I changed the Position of one head, but it just Looks unnatural.

    This construction stuff might be actually better, I mean this Looks shitty as well...

    I would love to create own Poses with Tension and dynamic feel in them, but I am not sure how many centurys it will take to get there...

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    Might not get you into a court case , but I'm pretty sure you would not be a very great guy under most people's eyes if it's a commercial product, if it's a non-commercial products, chances are people not going to look at it anyway.http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events...iarism-scandal

    I think it's a very trivial question to ask tbh. You will get the problem of drawing poses from imagination figured out if you ever get good enough to make a product that someone will care. If you don't, then it really doesn't matter when nobody will see it. Because you want to make a comic, it would just advice you to learn imaginative figure drawing anyway so you won't have to watch your back every panel you draw
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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    Sounds like near impossible Task, but maybe I will overcome that.

    Can someone please Name me some great resources for that construction stuff?
    Gesture Studies and anatomy helped a bit, but not a lot.
    Figures from Imagination are still horrible.

    I really love drawing. If I wouldnt, I would be far less Patient.

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    So the thing about action in comics is that they're a whole sequence, not just a bunch of images that are kind of related to each other.
    There's a beginning, some middle and end frames that lead the reader through that part of the story; actions and reactions of events.
    If you're doing fight choreography, I'd recommend watching fight videos, either from movies or sparring matches like school competitions, re-enactments, etc. more so than relying on single images.
    This way you know how to interpreter the start, middle and conclusion of why people are in the poses they're in.
    And from there work through you're own fighting sequences.

    If you're using that pose of the wrestlers and you really want to convey a larger opponent overpowering a smaller one, I'd use a completely different angle, get down close to the character who's pinned, show how they're in a vulnerable position.
    You're going to have to be able to draw the same characters from multiple angles, and likely use multiple references (found and created).
    If you can draw primitive shapes like boxes and cylinders in perspective from different angles, then you can do that with people as well.

  16. #14
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    You can't expect to create good art without ever looking at references. What you can do to mitigate that though is to look at multiple references and construct your own. You can also do studies to learn how to construct without reference.

    What did you find difficult to understand about Loomis or Drawabox? Or did you only read through them once and get frustrated that you weren't immediately able to draw perfectly? Drawing takes practice. You wouldn't expect to watch a youtube tutorial on soccer and immediately become as good as Beckham because you still have to train your muscles and hand eye coordination. Same goes for art. I have books on my shelf that I've read probably 20 times, and I still take a look at them sometimes when I get stuck on something.

    Other names for drawing people that get thrown around here a lot: Michael Hampton (book), Proko (youtube), George Bridgman (book).

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    Nobody owns a pose. There's a difference between copying a pose you see in the image, and copying the actual picture. I really wouldn't worry too much. Especially because this is a personal project, and your drawings are not in any way a strict reproduction of the reference picture.

    If you were making an art piece for commercial purposes. And you copied the information photo one for one, meaning the values, and shapes then yeah this would be a concern. But you're allowed to look at an image and note how someones arms or legs are positioned.

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  19. #16
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    What did you find difficult to understand about Loomis or Drawabox? Or did you only read through them once and get frustrated that you weren't immediately able to draw perfectly? Drawing takes practice. You wouldn't expect to watch a youtube tutorial on soccer and immediately become as good as Beckham because you still have to train your muscles and hand eye coordination. Same goes for art. I have books on my shelf that I've read probably 20 times, and I still take a look at them sometimes when I get stuck on something.
    Yeah I wasnt sure what I was supposed to do with that Mannequin from loomis. Even with knowing how that Thing Looks, I still cannot do something with it. I have Problems to "move the Mannequin around in my Imagination". When I try to imagine the Mannequin in Motion, it just Looks like a broken robot.

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    The mannequin is a reference point to give you an idea of proportions. Being able to move he mannequin into different positions requires an understanding of perspective, which is where still lifes and drawabox come in handy. I believe Figure Drawing For All It’s Worth had some chapters as well about translating the mannequin in space.

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    If you're doing fight choreography, I'd recommend watching fight videos, either from movies or sparring matches like school competitions, re-enactments, etc. more so than relying on single images.
    This way you know how to interpreter the start, middle and conclusion of why people are in the poses they're in.
    And from there work through you're own fighting sequences.
    I guess it is important to learn that construction stuff. Though I dont know how to practice that properly. The loomis Mannequin seems Kind of pointless to me. What am I supposed to do with it? I have the german Version here at home, and sometimes look into it, but I am not able to do something with the Mannequin. When I try to move ist "Delta muscle" and arms in my Imagination, it just Looks stupid.
    You're going to have to be able to draw the same characters from multiple angles, and likely use multiple references (found and created).
    If you can draw primitive shapes like boxes and cylinders in perspective from different angles, then you can do that with people as well.
    Read more: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...#ixzz5DgARyy4H
    I tried that, but I guess I will more simple stuff like rotating boxes and cylinders. I did this some times but not very often.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsZNwdYx5jY

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  22. #19
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    As you can see, I really have Problems to put all that Knowledge together.
    The perspective stuff with the Mannequin with the gesture drawings- It just all floats around in my head and I am Kind of stagnating.

  23. #20
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    Ah, I thought you might be German because you keep capitalizing nouns If you’d like you can message me in German and I might be able to explain some concepts to you in German, though my grammar is not very good.

    From what it sounds like though, you just need to practice more. When you open your Loomis book, don’t just look at the pictures but read the text too. He goes into further detail about mistakes a lot of beginners make.

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