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  1. #1
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    "self-study" vs "self-study on top of home-study art program"

    I made my own curriculum for drawing from imagination. The curriculum is on http://gist.asciidoctor.org/?fp-6fsiWpss6ckTgCuSmeg87e
    I studied bert dodson's keys to drawing for about two months. Apart from a few tips on proportion measurement with a pencil and preventing me from drawing from symbols instead of drawing what I see, the book seemed to take a lot of time but deliver very little value.

    I asked on reddit. Someone recommended `Robert Beverly Hale's Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters`. I read tables of contents and reviews for keys to drawing and robert beverly hale's book on amazon. I could see why drawing lessons from the great masters was a better book for beginners.

    I also accidentally found https://evolveartist.com/join-evolve which is a home-study program that costs about $3,200 over 2 years.
    This art program is taught by the instructor, Kevin Murphy. It teaches how to draw what I see in physical world accurately. It claims that if I learned it 1~2 hours a day, I would be able to achieve photorealism in 2 years.
    According to "A Sneak Peek Behind the Scenes of Evolve" on https://evolveartist.com/evolve-videos
    a student watches videos, does homeworks, uploads homeworks, and receives feedbacks. Until certain criteria are met, kevin doesn't let students proceed.

    I read past news articles on kevin murphy. It seems he is better than most art instructors.
    Thus, I'm going to assume that evolve artist program is a real deal for drawing what I see accurately.

    The problem is that it teaches only what I see. To draw realistically from imagination, I still have to learn my self-study curriculum on top of the program. I'm not sure how much the program will help me draw from imagination. Furthermore, I have an ego problem just as everyone else does. If I couldn't succeed in a humanly reasonable timeframe solely through my self-study curriculum, I'd feel bad about myself and my hard efforts that I poured into my self-study curriculum. But, it's possible to work out ego issues.

    My beautifully crafted self-study curriculum is on http://gist.asciidoctor.org/?fp-6fsiWpss6ckTgCuSmeg87e

    My goal is supernormal realism. --> https://www.sparringmind.com/supernormal-stimuli
    In particular, the kind of supernormal stimuli I want to produce is https://www.pixiv.net/member_illust....st_id=52421094

    Here are my questions.

    1) How much time do you think the program will save?
    2) How do you think the program will help with drawing from imagination?
    3) Do you have tips for progressing smoothly on my self-study program?


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    It claims that if I learned it 1~2 hours a day, I would be able to achieve photorealism in 2 years.
    Why don't you buy a simple camera and enjoy your photorealism here and now?
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    Why do you want to draw photorealistic stuff? Are you doing art for hobby or training to work professionally? If to work, wich field?(concept art, fine art, magazines covers, etc)
    3k bucks are a lot of money, schoolism has much cheaper class on copying stuff realistically like Hardesty and Seiler's class.

    Post some work of people at the level you want to reach and we can help you, by giving guidance on what you need to learn.

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    Guys, it's not copying, but learning to draw what I see in physical world accurately with photorealistic precision.

    The kind of drawing I want to draw is mentioned near the end in the original post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    Guys, it's not copying, but learning to draw what I see in physical world accurately with photorealistic precision.

    The kind of drawing I want to draw is mentioned near the end in the original post.
    But it's crap and generic. Why would you want to draw like that?

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    Here's just some of my experience on self-studying.
    - Think of it like any other disciplines. When in doubt, ask yourself " what would an Engineering/Medical/Architectwhatever do on their studying path and career ". Art is not very different from acquiring other disciplines.

    With that said, here are a few of my ideas. This is not an order or something, I'm just reasoning why I think these would be helpful.
    - We self-study because there are already great resources/classes available online, not because we can pull all the knowledge out of thin air. Always be on the lookout for the knowledge that has been trial and tested throughout thousands of art history instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.
    - It's very nice that you try to get a course. While I have never taken that course, I would say that they are better than books for beginners. When you go to university, the university will make you take classes to gain the fundamentals core and your professors will tell you to read books to expand your knowledge of the subject. There are very few books that can explain well enough for beginners to understand while most courses will attempt to work on basic core principles only and will hold your hand through it.

    Here's my suggestion:
    - For drawing, focus on measurement and observation when you're starting out, as well as basic perspective for 3D thinking. Nail these 3 things because everything related to drawing is built on the foundation that you can control your proportion, understand form and able to work from life.
    - Those 3 things can be learned from any art class that is remotely competent ( they are like Art 101). So it could be a good idea to look for them in your local area.Also, note that some art classes might not be able to teach you anything more than copying life. And that leads us to the next advice:
    - There are programs online taught by very renowned artists as well as people in the creative industry such as Schoolism and New Masters Academy for a price of 30-40 dollars a month ( no feedbacks though ). I have had around a year on those sites and they are really, really good. I would recommend New Masters Academy first because it really caters to beginners and I haven't really heard any complaints
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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    I'm skeptical of any program that makes promises like

    "you can be this good in just x amount of time"
    "guaranteed success"
    "lose 10 pounds in 10 days with 10 simple tricks"

    yeah. right. Take what you can get for free, first.

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  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Spot View Post
    But it's crap and generic. Why would you want to draw like that?
    I agree the background is kind of crap. But, I don't really think the character is crap. I like the character.
    Why would I want to draw like that? Partially because I read japanese manga and I got used to it. But, I have to think about the question to get the full answer.

    If you can confidently say the picture is crap, you might be able to surprise me with your favorite drawings.
    What are your favorite drawings?
    Last edited by tokigami.kineko; February 16th, 2018 at 11:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    There are very few books that can explain well enough for beginners to understand while most courses will attempt to work on basic core principles only and will hold your hand through it.

    Here's my suggestion:
    - For drawing, focus on measurement and observation when you're starting out, as well as basic perspective for 3D thinking. Nail these 3 things because everything related to drawing is built on the foundation that you can control your proportion, understand form and able to work from life.
    - Those 3 things can be learned from any art class that is remotely competent ( they are like Art 101). So it could be a good idea to look for them in your local area.Also, note that some art classes might not be able to teach you anything more than copying life. And that leads us to the next advice:
    - There are programs online taught by very renowned artists as well as people in the creative industry such as Schoolism and New Masters Academy for a price of 30-40 dollars a month ( no feedbacks though ). I have had around a year on those sites and they are really, really good. I would recommend New Masters Academy first because it really caters to beginners and I haven't really heard any complaints
    My self-study curriculum also focuses on proportion, perspective, and observation initially.

    I am starting to think that most general beginner books are not designed for home self-study although someone may argue otherwise.
    Bert dodson's keys to drawing is frustrating for beginners because it throws a lot of obstacles to drawing practice. It doesn't tell me what drawing tools to buy, and it wants me to wait days for the right lighting conditions for one exercise. Betty Edwards' drawing on the right side of the brain doesn't seem better.

    I think I'm going to skip general beginner books like keys to drawing and just jump onto fundamentals of drawing by starting with proportions.

    I'll consider schoolism and new masters academy, too. But, I'll try the resources I have in my self-study curriculum, first.
    How good are schoolism and new masters academy? I want to hear details.
    Last edited by tokigami.kineko; February 17th, 2018 at 12:30 AM.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    My self-study curriculum also focuses on proportion, perspective, and observation initially.

    I am starting to think that most general beginner books are not designed for home study although someone may argue otherwise.
    Bert dodson's keys to drawing is frustrating for beginners because it throws a lot of obstacles to drawing practice. It doesn't tell me what drawing tools to buy, and it wants me to wait days for the right lighting conditions for one exercise. Betty Edwards' drawing on the right side of the brain doesn't seem better.

    I think I'm going to skip general beginner books like keys to drawing and just jump onto fundamentals of drawing by starting with proportions.

    I'll consider schoolism and new masters academy, too. But, I'll try the resources I have in my self-study curriculum, first.
    How good are schoolism and new masters academy? I want to hear details.
    Books are not really designed to be the main source of study imo, especially for visual fields. You have so many things that are hard to describe by words, coupled with the fact that are are very limited illustrations you can throw in the book compare to an online course or on-site mentorship, as well as most of the targeted readers are most likely visual people instead of avid readers.

    As for Schoolism and NMA . They are some best options available online. Just google the name of the mentors, they are all either associated with academic teaching or working in the creative fields for well-known companies , definitely not a bunch of hacks. Plus it's like 40 bucks maximum for a month, that's nothing compare to your 3.2k and you can abandon ship any moment.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    Books are not really designed to be the main source of study imo, especially for visual fields. You have so many things that are hard to describe by words, coupled with the fact that are are very limited illustrations you can throw in the book compare to an online course or on-site mentorship, as well as most of the targeted readers are most likely visual people instead of avid readers.

    As for Schoolism and NMA . They are some best options available online. Just google the name of the mentors, they are all either associated with academic teaching or working in the creative fields for well-known companies , definitely not a bunch of hacks. Plus it's like 40 bucks maximum for a month, that's nothing compare to your 3.2k and you can abandon ship any moment.
    1) Videos are better because they have far more information than books? It makes sense. I read and watch quite a lot.
    Actually, english in drawing books is very easy, compared to blog articles or novels.
    I don't think I have to be an avid reader to learn to draw from books. But, I can see that videos pack more visual information.

    2) How do you compare Andrew Loomis' fun with a pencil and a few other books that are freely available online with New Masters Academy's beginner course?

    3) What about www.proko.com and ctrlpaint.com?

    4) There are books in my self-study curriculum that I linked in the original post. Should I substitute video courses for those books?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    1) Videos are better because they have far more information than books? It makes sense. I read and watch quite a lot.
    Actually, english in drawing books is very easy, compared to blog articles or novels.
    I don't think I have to be an avid reader to learn to draw from books. But, I can see that videos pack more visual information.

    2) How do you compare Andrew Loomis' fun with a pencil and a few other books that are freely available online with New Masters Academy's beginner course?

    3) What about www.proko.com and ctrlpaint.com?

    4) There are books in my self-study curriculum that I linked in the original post. Should I substitute video courses for those books?
    1.Videos are better not because they contain more information. Books contain more information. But most video courses only pick the basic of a subject and go very deep with examples , and you also get the teacher's experience on the subject, telling you how to remember the information, stressing the important part that you may gloss over with books, as well as having long demo sessions instead of just 4 panels of illustrations .That's why people go to class then read books at home to expand their knowledge and not the other way around
    2-3. I have limited experience with them . Got a good deal of anatomical knowledge out of Proko though.
    4.
    -Stephen Roger Perk 's Anatomy book is a really, really hard read. It has too much text and not enough illustrations to back it up. Studying anatomy is not just about making a map of muscles but also understanding how each muscle moves and reading through that is just insane. Most people who bought that book that I know ends up only looking at a few muscle map pages.
    - Alla Prima , Color and Light are better appreciated as the interminate level. They cover too broad a range of subject.
    - For Dorian Iten , you should put his content at the top of your list in both drawing and painting, his material is really geared toward beginner.
    This is my Pre and Post Dorian ( coupled with some researches on lighting fundamentals )
    "self-study" vs "self-study on top of home-study art program"

    - Another point is unless you want to do traditonal painting, leave them for later and do digital painting first. Digital is the EASIEST medium when it comes to painting IF you have some knowledge on light and color under your belt. Reason being, for other medium you have to know what color to put on the canvas and how to mix that color and how the medium behave. For digital you get to skip the later parts because all you have to do is moving sliders or choosing from a color cube. I would argue that it's the best medium to practice your color and light theory because it does exactly what you want it to do and there's no premixed palette, so when things go wrong you know that's it's only your understanding of the subject lacking.
    Last edited by GPhong; February 17th, 2018 at 01:49 AM.
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  17. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    - Another point is unless you want to do traditonal painting, leave them for later and do digital painting first. Digital is the EASIEST medium when it comes to painting IF you have some knowledge on light and color under your belt. Reason being, for other medium you have to know what color to put on the canvas and how to mix that color and how the medium behave. For digital you get to skip the later parts because all you have to do is moving sliders or choosing from a color cube. I would argue that it's the best medium to practice your color and light theory because it does exactly what you want it to do and there's no premixed palette, so when things go wrong you know that's it's only your understanding of the subject lacking.
    I think traditional is still useful for digital artists as have to plan more as there is no undo's or any tricks that digital offers so you have paint your mistakes out, and happy accidents are lot easier to make with paint and brush. You don't have every colors of rainbow with as you are working with limited palettes, it is much easier to get colors work together and mixing isn't really rocket science. So why not learn both if you wanna be digital artist??
    Example what you can do with very limited pallette http://portraitartistforum.com/showthread.php?t=7696
    http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...itional-paints

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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    1.Videos are better not because they contain more information. Books contain more information. But most video courses only pick the basic of a subject and go very deep with examples , and you also get the teacher's experience on the subject, telling you how to remember the information, stressing the important part that you may gloss over with books, as well as having long demo sessions instead of just 4 panels of illustrations .That's why people go to class then read books at home to expand their knowledge and not the other way around
    2-3. I have limited experience with them . Got a good deal of anatomical knowledge out of Proko though.
    4.
    -Stephen Roger Perk 's Anatomy book is a really, really hard read. It has too much text and not enough illustrations to back it up. Studying anatomy is not just about making a map of muscles but also understanding how each muscle moves and reading through that is just insane. Most people who bought that book that I know ends up only looking at a few muscle map pages.
    - Alla Prima , Color and Light are better appreciated as the interminate level. They cover too broad a range of subject.
    - For Dorian Iten , you should put his content at the top of your list in both drawing and painting, his material is really geared toward beginner.
    This is my Pre and Post Dorian ( coupled with some researches on lighting fundamentals )
    "self-study" vs "self-study on top of home-study art program"

    - Another point is unless you want to do traditonal painting, leave them for later and do digital painting first. Digital is the EASIEST medium when it comes to painting IF you have some knowledge on light and color under your belt. Reason being, for other medium you have to know what color to put on the canvas and how to mix that color and how the medium behave. For digital you get to skip the later parts because all you have to do is moving sliders or choosing from a color cube. I would argue that it's the best medium to practice your color and light theory because it does exactly what you want it to do and there's no premixed palette, so when things go wrong you know that's it's only your understanding of the subject lacking.
    Man.... that's a lot of information. My goal is digital painting and digital drawing. You don't have to worry that I might dabble with traditional painting.
    Looking at your drawings, dorian iten must be a good teacher. Her flesh looks a lot more real after your learning dorian's learning materials. I'd pay to get as good as you are. I still have to almost learn from scratch. I learned very little from bert dodson's keys to drawing.

    1) What about Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy instead of Stephen Rogers Peck's anatomy book? Classic Human Anatomy's illustrations are a lot better than Stephen Rogers Peck's. Classic Human Anatomy is rated even higher than Stephen Rogers Peck's on Amazon. What do you recommend for learning anatomy? Proko's paid anatomy course? Or, anything else?

    2) People suggested the following beginner's home study materials.


    * Proko's Drawing Basics on http://www.proko.com/library/
    * New Master Academy's beginner course (This seems longer and better than proko's drawing basics. But, I'm not totally sure.)
    * Robert Beverly Hale's Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters
    * Andrew Loomis' fun with a pencil and a few other books by him
    * Drawing on the right side of the brain

    Do you have any specific recommendations for beginner's first-time home study material?

  19. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    Man.... that's a lot of information. My goal is digital painting and digital drawing. You don't have to worry that I might dabble with traditional painting.
    Looking at your drawings, dorian iten must be a good teacher. Her flesh looks a lot more real after your learning dorian's learning materials. I'd pay to get as good as you are. I still have to almost learn from scratch. I learned very little from bert dodson's keys to drawing.

    1) What about Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy instead of Stephen Rogers Peck's anatomy book? Classic Human Anatomy's illustrations are a lot better than Stephen Rogers Peck's. Classic Human Anatomy is rated even higher than Stephen Rogers Peck's on Amazon. What do you recommend for learning anatomy? Proko's paid anatomy course? Or, anything else?

    2) People suggested the following beginner's home study materials.


    * Proko's Drawing Basics on http://www.proko.com/library/
    * New Master Academy's beginner course (This seems longer and better than proko's drawing basics. But, I'm not totally sure.)
    * Robert Beverly Hale's Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters
    * Andrew Loomis' fun with a pencil and a few other books by him
    * Drawing on the right side of the brain

    Do you have any specific recommendations for beginner's first-time home study material?
    I don't use those books for learning anatomy so I can't comment on that. All my basic anatomy knowledge came from Proko's free stuff on Youtube and Rey Busto's course on NMA

    Personally, I think NMA, Proko, and Loomis are all good starting points for drawing, it's just a matter of picking one or two and stick with it, going through the material multiple times and doing the advised homework.

    If you pick NMA, start with Steve Huston's lessons, he's more beginner friendly and his approach is similar to both Loomis and Proko
    .
    People keep telling me : " Why do you keep suggesting courses and books instead of just giving me the solution directly ? "

    Well if i could condense all the necessary informations that take hours of explanation and demonstration into a single post, i would gladly do it

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  21. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    1) What about Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy instead of Stephen Rogers Peck's anatomy book? Classic Human Anatomy's illustrations are a lot better than Stephen Rogers Peck's. Classic Human Anatomy is rated even higher than Stephen Rogers Peck's on Amazon. What do you recommend for learning anatomy? Proko's paid anatomy course? Or, anything else?
    Stephen Rogers Peck is good. You will need it for reference only, to support your study of constructive anatomy. Don't bother about Amazon ratings, these are meaningless. Proko is great, the free course should keep you busy for at least half a year.

    2) People suggested the following beginner's home study materials.

    * Proko's Drawing Basics on http://www.proko.com/library/
    * New Master Academy's beginner course (This seems longer and better than proko's drawing basics. But, I'm not totally sure.)
    * Robert Beverly Hale's Drawing Lessons from the Great Masters
    * Andrew Loomis' fun with a pencil and a few other books by him
    * Drawing on the right side of the brain

    Do you have any specific recommendations for beginner's first-time home study material?
    Proko and Loomis are great, Hale is purely academic, Drawing on the right side of the brain is okay-ish for absolute beginners, and although it has some interesting eye openers, it is not an efficient approach to learning to draw.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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  23. #17
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    The older versions of the Famous Artist School lessons are really helpful. They were created for a correspondence course in the 50's and 60's by the top illustrators of the day.

    You can find the lessons online for free and view them without downloading to see if they are your cup of tea
    https://www.scribd.com/lists/4118450...60-very-useful

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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque View Post
    Stephen Rogers Peck is good. You will need it for reference only, to support your study of constructive anatomy. Don't bother about Amazon ratings, these are meaningless. Proko is great, the free course should keep you busy for at least half a year.

    Proko and Loomis are great, Hale is purely academic, Drawing on the right side of the brain is okay-ish for absolute beginners, and although it has some interesting eye openers, it is not an efficient approach to learning to draw.
    Do you have any words for Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy?
    How do you compare New Masters Academy's beginner course with Proko and Loomis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GPhong View Post
    I don't use those books for learning anatomy so I can't comment on that. All my basic anatomy knowledge came from Proko's free stuff on Youtube and Rey Busto's course on NMA

    Personally, I think NMA, Proko, and Loomis are all good starting points for drawing, it's just a matter of picking one or two and stick with it, going through the material multiple times and doing the advised homework.

    If you pick NMA, start with Steve Huston's lessons, he's more beginner friendly and his approach is similar to both Loomis and Proko
    .
    I checked Steve Huston's lessons on New Masters Academy. He doesn't offer courses for absolute beginners but offers great courses.
    I'll keep Proko, NMA, and Loomis in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokigami.kineko View Post
    Do you have any words for Valerie Winslow's Classic Human Anatomy?
    How do you compare New Masters Academy's beginner course with Proko and Loomis?
    I cannot tell, don't know them first-hand.
    Grinnikend door het leven...

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