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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantasyartist View Post


    A simple cartoon character has anatomy. Anatomy refers to the structure of something, it doesn't necessarily have to be bones and muscles.

    No. Anatomy refers to bones and muscles. Do not confuse anatomy with structure.
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  3. #32
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    Hi Doodlebugger,
    I feel like you misunderstood some essential about gesture drawing
    Gesture drawing is really not the simplest thing at all it is the hardest part because it is an emphasis of almost every craftmanskills: eyeballing, abstration, proportions, symplification, and so on. To describe a figure in fewest lines possible it is the hardest of all if you got an infinite number of line it isn't that hard. So don't stress over your gesture being not good. Gesture isn't the first step at all to learn to draw to me at best it would be the first steps in designing
    From what I see you shouldn't worry about gesture because what will make you better at gesture right now isn't doing more gesture it is working on your ability to draw which means mostly to see.
    You need to have a good process setup in order to check every stage of the drawing and take a step back while drawing to check the different steps of your process are they still good and correct if they aren't. The real issue that you could have is if you don't see that you are making a head 2 times bigger relative to the rest of the drawing it is in that period that you need an educated art teacher to help you realize which part of your process is creating this bias.

    To me the best exercise wouldn't to do gesture but quick sketch learn to block-in the 2D shapes in front of you using only straight lines it will force you to simplify what you see. Don't use complexe curve lines they aren't usefull to learn to see, to simplify what is in front of you. Plus remember it takes lot of times and practice but also intelligent practice if you wish to optimize time.

    Also about the 4 points you shouldn't worry about anything that is related to meaning you need to abstract what you are drawing to not draw symbol of what you know to be a head an arms etc You can also struggle at eyeballing because you are to close of the paper the ideal distance would be for you to be able to see without moving your head the four points of the area where you will draw and your model.

    Hope it helps you

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  5. #33
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    No. Anatomy refers to bones and muscles. Do not confuse anatomy with structure.


    No it is not limited to bones and muscles. You should look up the definition of the word. Structure is one of the synonyms of anatomy .

    https://www.google.com/search?source...my%20defintion

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantasyartist View Post


    No it is not limited to bones and muscles. You should look up the definition of the word. Structure is one of the synonyms of anatomy .

    https://www.google.com/search?source...my%20defintion
    It shows two definitions, one of which is too general to be relevant here, and the other one is about bones and muscles, when it comes to artistic anatomy, and internal organs in a more general sense, which doesn't apply here.
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    It shows two definitions, one of which is too general to be relevant here, and the other one is about bones and muscles, when it comes to artistic anatomy, and internal organs in a more general sense, which doesn't apply here.


    I was talking exactly about the general definition, and you made it relevant when you asked about a cartoon character which has no bones and muscles.

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    1. My drawings all look flat and stiff: Even with shading there's very little feeling of depth to my drawings. I could draw like, a line down the center to show a figure's curvature, but I feel like that's a lazy way out. I want to be able to convey depth with the contours alone.

    2. Problems drawing the torso and hips: I always drop the ball trying to draw the central body. It often seems to come down to a rectangular shape and I find it hard to make that look interesting, or give it a sense of depth.
    These points tie in with the whole anatomy thing in the following sense. Humans have an endoskeleton rather than an exoskeleton. The skeleton is the framework upon which the rest of us hangs. In the case of an exoskeleton, the more rigid framework would be on the outside (the contours). Our endoskeleton, on the other hand, consists of a spine (a line right down the middle) plus several associated masses that Bridgman taught as boxes (they are rectangles only when seen in a basic plan view).

    The spine can bend and twist. Thus, it is important rather than lazy to establish that main central line. The head box, the rib cage box, and the pelvis box can vary in position with respect to one another but they all must be associated with the spine line running through their middle. (We are bilaterally symmetrical.)

    The rib cage and the pelvis are two different rectangles rather than one conglomerate rectangle. It's better to think of them as 3 dimensional boxes rather than mere rectangles because the bending and twisting of the spine can have them turned into space in various directions. The relative turning of the boxes anchored to that central line leads to the sense of depth you are seeking.

    Generally, you want your main action lines to include at least the leg that is carrying most of the weight. When I wrote about the rest of the body "hanging" on the skeleton, I invoked the force of gravity. Gravity together with mass (the boxes) creates weight. A part of the skeleton pushes against the floor to support that weight or else there is no "hanging." There is only "kersplatt" AKA jellyfish out of water.



  9. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantasyartist View Post


    I was talking exactly about the general definition, and you made it relevant when you asked about a cartoon character which has no bones and muscles.
    Let's stop fucking ants, as I don't think it helps TS to draw better...
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    Quote Originally Posted by eezacque View Post
    Let's stop fucking ants, as I don't think it helps TS to draw better...
    Damn.. I thought this was going to turn into a useless immature argument. I already got my popcorn out. :/

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  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiggeraz View Post
    Damn.. I thought this was going to turn into a useless immature argument. I already got my popcorn out. :/
    Fantasyartist and yours truly will not indulge in useless immature arguments unless we are getting paid to...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abichai View Post
    Hi Doodlebugger,
    To me the best exercise wouldn't to do gesture but quick sketch learn to block-in the 2D shapes in front of you using only straight lines it will force you to simplify what you see. Don't use complexe curve lines they aren't usefull to learn to see, to simplify what is in front of you. Plus remember it takes lot of times and practice but also intelligent practice if you wish to optimize time.

    Also about the 4 points you shouldn't worry about anything that is related to meaning you need to abstract what you are drawing to not draw symbol of what you know to be a head an arms etc You can also struggle at eyeballing because you are to close of the paper the ideal distance would be for you to be able to see without moving your head the four points of the area where you will draw and your model.

    Hope it helps you
    Here I kind of thought quick sketching and gesture drawing were the same thing-- but I guess not! Wouldn't drawing with only straight lines make the drawing look stiff though? I don't know, I feel like I'm already simplifying what I see-- maybe that's just cockiness, but "seeing" things a different way is just very hard to imagine for me haha. But, regardless I'll look into quick sketching techniques and try to put that in to practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by arttorney View Post
    The rib cage and the pelvis are two different rectangles rather than one conglomerate rectangle. It's better to think of them as 3 dimensional boxes rather than mere rectangles because the bending and twisting of the spine can have them turned into space in various directions. The relative turning of the boxes anchored to that central line leads to the sense of depth you are seeking.
    This does make sense, a criticism I've received a few times from people that really resonated with me is that I struggle to think/see in 3D. I'd agree with that, although it's hard to change the way I'm thinking especially when drawing essentially boils down to reducing something to a 2D plane. I can consciously try and envision things as 3D shapes, but I think the problem is at more of a subconscious level. Maybe I do need to add in those lines down the center, just to help my brain adjust to the idea of 3D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Okapi View Post
    woah woah there tiger for every good drawing you will make there will be 1000 bad ones.

    1. in my opinion you shouldn't even be remotely thinking about shading these figures, rendering won't save you if your drawing is bad (also you dont shade along with the form in warp lines, so that's why it looks flat too) about the flow, well, grab Matessis gesture book and copy the gestures. But I mean copy intently, not copy without thinking analyze what he does, read what he has to say, because each line in a gesture has a meaning. You're not using bouncing rhytmic lines in your drawing, you're just doing the outline, that's why it looks stiff.

    2. practice and experiments; there's no easy way out of this one the torso and hips will look different from different angles, from the back it's more round, like a bucket, from the front it's more boxy, there is no one way to do this

    3. there is no reason you should be focusing on the head, facial features and hair right now, that comes way way after gesture drawing And there is no reason you should be drawing hair in your gesture drawing right now unless it helps the flow and composition you're focusing too much on the little details instead of getting the big action of the pose.

    4. well you just started, rome wasn't built in a day! This is something you will struggle with, especially in harder poses, like sitting or laying down. The only thing you can do is practice, and practice well.

    good luck with further drawings
    I probably shouldn't be shading yea, at this point it's just a way to try and cover up my mistakes. I did pick up Matessi's "Force: Dynamic Life Drawing" book recently! His drawings are great and exactly the kind of thing I want to accomplish doing. But it's pretty hard for me to understand how he went about making them, maybe it WOULD do me some good to copy them. My question is, you say I'm just drawing the outline and that that's problematic. But isn't basically every gesture drawing going to end up with an outline eventually? That's kind of why I have trouble thinking outside of outlines and seeing the use of "rhythm lines" and other such things.

    Thank you for trying to reassure me of my progress though; it's just very easy for me personally to get discouraged. Being among a bunch of other students who are brilliant at drawing, I also have one classmates who's equally as mediocre as me. She draws like me, her handwriting is like mine, and she doesn't seem to be improving a whole lot. I know this theory gets shot down a lot but it just makes me wonder if there are some people who will never be able to learn draw at the level they want, maybe because they weren't drawing during those important early years of brain development. I always see a lot of signs that if those kinds of people exist, that I'm one of them. So I get very depressed and I think it does effect my art in a negative way, but at this point I really can't help it hahaha.



    In other news my life drawing class is almost over. Fortunately next semester I happen to be transferring to one of the best art/animation colleges in the world-- Sheridan College in Canada! I'm there for the game design program and not art, but it would be a great privilege to be able to take one of the art classes as a breadth elective, I'm going to see if I could get that arranged.

  14. #41
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    that's awesome to hear that you picked up the book! funny you mention that, after I wrote this to you this morning I went back myself to refresh my gesture knowledge and I noticed how much Matessi's drawing might resemble contours for a beginner, though it's just connected bouncing lines that are placed there due to anatomy, for e.g. the deltoid bounces to the oblique to the hip, to the knee etc, he just connects them at the end to make it look more polished; the best thing you can do is just understand the very first chapter where he mentions the rhythym and bouncing lines and where the figures aren't connected into a rhytmic contour


    the thing about brilliant students, I totally get it. When I first started I was in an art group and we had this amazing girl who went to art university for concept art and drew the most horrendously good stuff that I've ever seen; and then there was me, a wannabe self-taught brat just beginning their journey; now that I look back, I don't think her art is THAT amazing anymore because I've learned and see more flaws , and that'll happen to you too, your eye-sight will develop and even though you think the draw well now, later you will look back in astonishment and think what the hell lol artists I admired as a kid mostly don't impress me anymore.


    about people learning to draw, maybe it'll help if you see how I used to draw although I have always drawn from a young age and through my teens it was never studying (I only found out about doing studies last year) so all those drawings look REALLY bad, like. Like REALLY bad lol I could copy well, but I only did imagination drawings back then and it looked like this:

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    so yeah there is no talent with me lol there was (still is) only hard-work, sleeping for 5 hrs a night, ditching friends, ditching hobbies I enjoyed like reading, ditching movies, ditching everything that could deter from the goal and drawing a SHIT ton. You have to say "no" to a lot of things, but I belive it will be worth it
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  16. #42
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    Thank you for telling/showing me all that, it does help me feel a little better about making progress. It just really feels sometimes like if anyone can't get better at art, it's me. I really struggle to put my heart in to things even when I'm passionate about them and I have very little work ethic. I used to think I was depressed or something but after being on 8-9 different medicines that did nothing for me, I think it's just part of who I am as a person. Just because it makes me upset doesn't mean it's depression. And as you can imagine those qualities make it much harder to do artwork, it seems like the worst possible field for me to go in to but it's still something I really want because I'm tired of loafing around and just being a couch potato my whole life. Sorry for all the personal info, I'm just venting at this point hahaha, but really thank you for showing your progress. I'm not sure I really want to go as far as ditching friends and hobbies to get better at drawing but, improving my art is pretty much on my mind 24/7 so it's a big deal for me.

    Today my teacher was disappointed with me for making a drawing that was too reliant on outlines. Someone in this thread brought this up too, that I shouldn't just draw in terms of outlines. But I just have such a hard time wrapping my head around that; no matter what you do, aren't all line drawings going to end up as outlines? I just can't think of them any other way. I know I'm supposed to think of each part as having volume and mass but I just...don't feel like that's really going to help the final result look better?
    Last edited by doodlebugger; July 21st, 2017 at 01:01 AM.

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    I don't think you should be worried about how great your drawings look at the moment. Learning to draw through the forms doesn't necessarily create nice looking, clean drawings (in the beginning), but it damn well sure makes you draw better because you're less restricted. keep your lines light and draw with your elbow and try to see each part of the figure as a simple shape. Also use long flowing lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doodlebugger View Post
    Here I kind of thought quick sketching and gesture drawing were the same thing-- but I guess not! Wouldn't drawing with only straight lines make the drawing look stiff though? I don't know, I feel like I'm already simplifying what I see-- maybe that's just cockiness, but "seeing" things a different way is just very hard to imagine for me haha. But, regardless I'll look into quick sketching techniques and try to put that in to practice.
    Gesture is just a technique a system to describe the figure through abstract rythm fluid line nothing more. You got better chance to do stiff drawing with curve line because they are more rythmical but less energic than with straight lines while curves lines loosing you in details that you can achieve by compiling multiple straight lines I'm not inventing anything look at the best artist (and I'm not even talking of the masters) they all have stages with straight lines curves come much much later that in a quick sketch and some even never let curves but just compile straight lines to give the illusion of curves.

    Well you don't seems to be able to see your disproportion while drawing and they are obvious thus you need to see better. You won't eyeball better if you don't work your seeing ability xD Plus you don't simplify that much I mean I see no gesture drawing in any of your drawing you have posted right know you are focusing soo much on the outside contour of your shapes that it is the complete opposite of gesture. Gesture is about the inside and an abstraction of the rythm not the outside and you are showing only countour drawing with curve lines. Your best gesture drawing so far is the sanguine pencil on your first post the rest is just curves contour drawing to me thats why I advice you to do another exercise to train you.
    It isn't really seeing them a different way it is casting away your symbol knowledge while drawing thus to not have almond eyes everywhere even if we like almond or big eyes etc.

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    Let's stop fucking ants, as I don't think it helps TS to draw better...


    You are right eezacque , let's leave the poor ants alone.

    The point was that knowledge of anatomy will help doodlebugger's gesture drawings. Also based on the drawings posted here it seems like you should study perspective and drawing simple geometric forms. This fundamental skill is necessary for drawing both organic and man-made objects. A lack of this skill will result in drawings that lack a sense of volume. Glenn Vilppu is a good instructor to look at for making solid 3D-looking figures if you want to start on the organic side. If you want to be more hardcore you can look at Scott Robertson's How to Draw book. You shouldn't be worried about all sorts of techniques at this point, just focus on learning the fundamentals of good drawing.

  20. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abichai View Post
    Gesture is just a technique a system to describe the figure through abstract rythm fluid line nothing more. You got better chance to do stiff drawing with curve line because they are more rythmical but less energic than with straight lines while curves lines loosing you in details that you can achieve by compiling multiple straight lines I'm not inventing anything look at the best artist (and I'm not even talking of the masters) they all have stages with straight lines curves come much much later that in a quick sketch and some even never let curves but just compile straight lines to give the illusion of curves.

    Well you don't seems to be able to see your disproportion while drawing and they are obvious thus you need to see better. You won't eyeball better if you don't work your seeing ability xD Plus you don't simplify that much I mean I see no gesture drawing in any of your drawing you have posted right know you are focusing soo much on the outside contour of your shapes that it is the complete opposite of gesture. Gesture is about the inside and an abstraction of the rythm not the outside and you are showing only countour drawing with curve lines. Your best gesture drawing so far is the sanguine pencil on your first post the rest is just curves contour drawing to me thats why I advice you to do another exercise to train you.
    It isn't really seeing them a different way it is casting away your symbol knowledge while drawing thus to not have almond eyes everywhere even if we like almond or big eyes etc.
    I have to admit it's disappointing to hear you think my drawings on the first post are my best ones, but I see where you're coming from-- in my later drawings I did add more contour and detail but I didn't think I was adding TOO much. Maybe I should be working with straight lines a bit more. My fixation on curved lines came from Proko's video on gesture drawing where he said to always use C curves and S curves so you'll have to excuse me for receiving mixed messages here hahahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasyartist View Post

    The point was that knowledge of anatomy will help doodlebugger's gesture drawings. Also based on the drawings posted here it seems like you should study perspective and drawing simple geometric forms. This fundamental skill is necessary for drawing both organic and man-made objects. A lack of this skill will result in drawings that lack a sense of volume. Glenn Vilppu is a good instructor to look at for making solid 3D-looking figures if you want to start on the organic side. If you want to be more hardcore you can look at Scott Robertson's How to Draw book. You shouldn't be worried about all sorts of techniques at this point, just focus on learning the fundamentals of good drawing.
    Studying perspective is something I definitely have considered. I know how to draw cubes, cylinders, spheres, etc from various perspectives, and I know how to do one- two- and three-point perspective for those types of things. But as soon as things get a little more complex than that, for example if I have to draw a trapezoid or diamond-like shape in 3D, I quickly get confused. I will take a look at the instructor and book you suggested!

    I am sorry for so many posts in this thread! This thread is becoming like my personal art blog! I am sorry for all the hand-holding I seem to request. But your replies are very much appreciated. I am thankful for any sort of guidance!

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    I don't think there is anything wrong with Proko's CSI method. Just remember that even he says that not everything is gentle curves. A bunched up pose with a lot of potential energy is going to have much sharper corners to the lines. Deciding how angular the gesture will be is part of what you are practicing in short poses. You look at what is in front of you and make decisions about how energetic the lines are.

    (It is rare that a model will go for a real pretzel pose on a 20 minute or longer pose. It would probably become agonizing. Thus, the longer poses are going to involve much more gentle curves or corners in the CSI lines.)

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    Hi all! Today I did about three drawings based on pictures from the quickposes website. I did both a gesture drawing and a more comprehensive line drawing.


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    The gesture drawing is nothing special and took under a minute. As for the second more comprehensive drawing, I wasn't counting but I think this took somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes? I tried making much more use of surface lines and envisioning segments of the body as masses that connect with one another. I tried as best I could to draw the surface lines before the contours, so that I'm not focusing on outlines like my teacher said. But it feels like the end result didn't change much as a result. Does it sound like I'm doing something wrong?

    Also, I guess this thread isn't so much about gesture drawing anymore as it is about sketching in general! Maybe I should change the thread title one of these days.

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    Maybe I'm being thick, but I don't know exactly what you mean by 'surface lines'. Those wrap-round-the-form lines on the forearm and calf?

    As for envisioning connecting masses: sorry, but I can't really see where you've done that, perhaps apart from the arms. Is that what the various ovals and circles are? If so, I don't think they describe mass so much as joints and the surface shapes of the rear shoulder girdle.

    I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, after many others have said so here, but I think it needs to be beaten in: you might benefit from studying some anatomy alongside the gesture studies. From this thread I get the feeling that you're concentrating so much on drawing as fast as you can, that you don't give yourself any time to let even the basic forms sink in - to internalise the human figure, as Eezacque said. Get to know a bit about the shapes, proportions and 3D forms of the traditional masses at least - head, ribcage, and pelvis - how they string together, and how they string onto gesture lines.
    ...which is only my opinion.
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    what vermis said, also maybe you should make a sketchbook if you will be posting regularly
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    Thank you for being honest. By surface lines I did mean the wrap-around-the-form lines, and as for the connecting masses thing, well, if you can't tell where I did that then that's a failure on my part, not yours.

    Sorry that I didn't pay much attention to accurate anatomy in this drawing; I understand where you're coming from when you say I would benefit from more study in that area. I just feel like my main problem has to be something with my technique, it's something cerebral that I'm not doing right. And if that's the case, I think I would prioritize fixing that over learning anatomy. But pinpointing exactly what that issue is...that's really hard, and studying anatomy is pretty easy by comparison, so you're right I should be doing that more.

    Okapi, I had been considering that for a while and I think you're right. If I have any more drawings to post I'll do them in a new sketchbook thread.

    Thanks everyone for being patient with me here, I know I must seem pretty dense sometimes. Maybe it's easy to see why I feel hopeless a lot of times. But I appreciate all of your advice, it makes me feel a little brighter about the future.

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    I just feel like my main problem has to be something with my technique, it's something cerebral that I'm not doing right. And if that's the case, I think I would prioritize fixing that over learning anatomy. But pinpointing exactly what that issue is...that's really hard, and studying anatomy is pretty easy by comparison, so you're right I should be doing that more.


    Feelings can be deceptive. Your main problem has nothing to do with technique or something being wrong with your brains. Your problem is simply a lack of fundamental knowledge. The solution to that is very simple: go get it! None of us came out of the womb drawing like pros, this stuff has to be learned. So there's no need to feel bad about yourself. You came humbly seeking for advice and I believe you got it .

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    I think you need to work on dexterity, i.e. learning confidence in laying flowing/curved and straight lines and getting a softer hand. You have skipped this step so it's at least partially what's impeding your progress.


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    if you can break form into simple form like cylinders and boxes, then you can draw same way figure, then study muscles and draw them over those basic forms. You should draw through the form not just what you see, its ofcource doesnt have that flow but it will be lot easier later on to draw good gesture when you have internalized basic forms, I think you should study this with still life from life
    https://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/form-not-shape
    edit: I think you should look books like Loomis Figure drawing at all its worth or Michael Hampton Figure design and invention for more in depth how to simplify figure and anatomy
    Last edited by stonec; July 24th, 2017 at 01:39 PM.

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    A good start, don't you have a sketchbook where you just post stuff?
    Try to enjoy the process, I hope you will find fun in just creating sketches.
    Everything else comes with repetition. Don't be so hard on your self try to
    LOVE IT!

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