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  1. #1
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    Heated Art Renewal Discussion!

    I reallly appreaciate the fact that Art Renewal stands up for Realism against those "Prideful Muck on a Canvas" so called Fine Artist and supporters but, it's sad ArtRenewal are a bit one sided. I am not against abstract art just to clarify that. But, yeah there is more of a Huge ratio of B.S. than quality when it comes to that stuff but, then again you can say that about realism.

    Read what ArtRewal has to say... Please read both...

    http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2...181&forumID=26

    http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2...d/hockney1.asp

    What do you guys think? This is important stuff...


    I enjoy this quote...It is sad.
    " While museums display realist art of the past centuries, living realists are blackballed and shunned and ignored nearly everywhere, while countless numbers of “gimmick-of-the-week” charlatans are given endless space for their “installations” or “conceptual” constructs, regardless how lacking they are in skills, meaning, poetry or grace."

    -Joshua James


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  3. #2
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    Glad to know that i'm not the only one who thinks this way.
    I think both of the articles are true to a large extent.
    A lot of people at my college will testify to the same thing.

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    I suppose it's a little too subjective of a topic to simply make a pronouncement like "We will only show realist art in our galleries". There are extremes of impressive art (I'm in a Caravaggio phase right now) and plainly crappy art (a half black and half white canvas simply isn't worth showing, regardless of how much the painter would like the viewer to read into it and divine meaning), but in the middle there are pieces that could be argued either way. Matisse isn't technically the most impressive artist, but his paintings are evocative of emotion; abstract art can be very impressive or powerful, and can just as easily be crap. I would argue that you really have to evaluate art on a piece-by-piece basis and not based on catagorizations. Do the latter, and you'll probably miss a lot of great artwork.
    "Es nat far meh, es far me maaah."
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    I like how Art Renewal provides lots of good reproductions of traditional art, but I think they're getting too obssesive with realism, just like today's art scene is too obssessed with abstract/conceptual art.

    Just as there are many bad abstract paintings, there are also many poor realist paintings. Ones that are just dully painted, going for only exactness of vision. Those are good for learning to paint, but for showing as "fine art", no. Read either of Harold Speed's books, "The Practice and Science of Drawing" or "Oil Painting Techniques and Materials", for a better explanation of what I'm trying to say.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOSHUATHEJAMES
    I enjoy this quote...It is sad.
    " While museums display realist art of the past centuries, living realists are blackballed and shunned and ignored nearly everywhere, while countless numbers of “gimmick-of-the-week” charlatans are given endless space for their “installations” or “conceptual” constructs, regardless how lacking they are in skills, meaning, poetry or grace."
    It's been happening since the early 1900's. The masses have gotten such a loud a voice these days, that you have to shout to get attention. This has brought about the unrefined artists and those who create shocking and visually jarring art to get attention. I don't mean to sound elitist, but things are getting out of hand.

    It's not just with painting, but also with music.

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    I should mention too positive things about abstract art. One, it's not a bad idea to try something new and to question the "rules" of "fine" art. Two, people who aren't too familiar with art might start to pick up on ideas of composition, value, and color, whereas with traditional art they are more likely to just see the subject.

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    I have to agree. Me personally I'm not all too much of a fan of abstract and all of those other kinds of art but a lot of times they are very meaningful. However, I think it needs to slow down. It's been going on for almost over 100 years now that's plenty of enough time to pass through an art revolution so this stuff needs to die and we need to figure out what the new age of art is going to be. I mean throwing paint on a canvas and getting thousands of dollars for it? I know I'm a simple soul but if it's something that I can do (easily) it shouldn't be considered as professional fine arts. Sure abstract and contemporary should be considered as art but sheesh let it die. I say bring back the heavy realism movement but with intensity. Dunno takes a long time to figure out a meaningful and complicated art revolution. Guess we've done all we can do? HA ya right.


    However I think this new wave of simple shock art is because we are relying on different things for our survival. Come on why do you think we are in a heavy sex revolution? We've simplified ourselves to the point of which we just go out for physical and quick gratification to be happy in our lives. Sheesh why you think ever teen at my highschool are doing each other constantly. Nothing but cheap shock music and art is barely even a part of their lives anymore so they go for simplified almost animalistic means of enjoying life. Not to say sexuality is a bad thing its just that freakin pinguins do each other. Seems like we're trying to be like animals more than humans. People who love genius is in a minority, we usually just use what the smart extravegant make out of their hard work and creativity and just use it for more instant gratification.

    Dunno just my theory on why humans are so simple these days. In summary the more technology we have maybe the more simple we become.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daunting
    Dunno just my theory on why humans are so simple these days. In summary the more technology we have maybe the more simple we become.
    I agree that people are getting too much into instant gratification (although I blame it on capitalism, but that's for another thread). I think life needs to slow down.

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    You know, I have no problem with design concepts and abstract art because there are artists who actually can pull it off and leave you with a sense that they're purposefully trying to do something new and expressive. There are a few legitimate people who are trying to create an original and powerful aesthetic. The problem is when everyone else is hopping on a bandwagon and formulaically spewing this stuff out. These self proclaimed "superior" visionaries who think that putting a red dot on the center of a white canvas gives them license to be a condescending asshole. Slap a plaque on whatever bullshit you want and call people unsophisticated morons if they can't appreciate the genius of a urinal ripped out of a bathroom and then given it's own exhibit.

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    Talentless hacks have only one place, painting the walls in my house.
    I read the articles and they coincide with what my views are.
    Realism is where skill and mastery is shown.
    Abstract and Conceptual can be stretched so far that any peon can say that they are an artist, and if you are saying that its a load of manure, they get all iffy and start accusing you of being a fascist and an oppressor of freedom of speech.

    Only a select few are worth of respect.
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    Now I wouldn't say that all of the abstract art is skilless a butts but a lot and i mean A LOT freakin are. Dude crapping and throwing up in a boot is considered art these days. Sheesh whatever gets people to look twice is considered great visioinaries. Oh well I hope this fad doesn't last longer. Hope it changes to a somewhat meaningful realistic type of thing. Because that's the real skill. Showing that much intensity and emotion and meaning in a realistic skilled painting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daunting
    Oh well I hope this fad doesn't last longer.
    Maybe the avant-garde artists will realise that realism is avant-garde now.

  14. #13
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    Personally, I'm not fond of either extreme. On one side we have realism, which takes a lot of skill but no imagination. Then we have abstract, which takes no skill but a lot of imagination. The art I love comes in right down the center.


    Quote Originally Posted by evildisco
    Abstract and Conceptual can be stretched so far that any peon can say that they are an artist
    I think any peon can be an artist.



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    Any peon can be an "artist" sure.
    DON'T CLICK THIS

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    I think a skilled realist who puts his full effort into exploring the bounds of the abstract is respectable. Same goes for the abstract artist exploring the bounds of realism.

    A wise person once told me that exploring any particular avenue of art enriches your experience and perspective on all others if you will let it.

    I certainly could care less about debates like this though...
    The means by which the purpose was executed is really irrelevant if the painting serves it's purpose.
    Neither proper credit for the skill involved, or knowing for certain the process that was used to make it is important. Art has it's own integrity that can't be taken away.

    The integrity of artists I think is the issue that's more worth discussing.

    Is there integrity in creating something meant to be totally ambiguous?
    Is there integrity in taking pride in accidental success?
    Is there integrity in doing something that you don't fully understand?
    Is there integrity when you use shortcut tools to do things you otherwise wouldn't have the understanding to accomplish?

    whether he used projected images or not, I still absolutely love William Bougereau's paintings.
    If he used an easier method, oh well, it bruises a bit of his celebrity status, but it takes nothing away from the beauty of the work.

    -Rob
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    I see integrity when I find a person that has put his or her life into something and researched and tried to learn every avenue into that something and produces something worthwhile from that research. Me personally I would love for a mix of abstract and deep realism to be popular and I'll view that as having great integrity. However, accidental mess ups when you have no idea what your doing and making money off of it isn't integrity. My personal views of art shouldn't push on anybody else's view of art but when you lose your integrity in it (Like throwing up in a freakin boot and making money off that I can't get over it) then your stuff should be my toilet paper.

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    Everything these days is getting commercialized, unfortunately, art is no exception. If you can easily produde crap, make money off of it, and be considered an artist - there will always be somebody who'll do it. As long as the public accepts it as art (evntually pendulum will swing back and people will get fed up with the "shock" and contemporary stuff), it will be popular and talentless shmucks will make money off of it. Eventually, it should go back to realizm, and that's not an area where you can produce quality work without skill and talent.

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    I think it's a bit of a misconception that abstract art is "popular". I think the vast majority of people see something and say "I could do that!" or "This looks like something my 4 year old made!" and don't really feel that it's art. It's more the art establishment that gives it a thumbs up and says "This is art and that is not".

    The same is true of any artistic medium really. Stephen King sells more books than anyone, but the literary community doesn't really see him as a "real" novelist, or at least not a good one. But I would say he is, in a way, a better writer than the people winning awards. His work is obviously connecting with the audience in ways other books don't, which, to me anyways, is kind of the point.

    My definition of art: anything created to provoke an emotional response (catharsis), is art. Good, bad, but never indifferent. When I look at abstract or modern art, it doesn't really elicit any response from me. That doesn't mean it's not art, just not good art. Of course this definition means that the "quality" of the art is entirely subjective, which is how I believe it should be. Even if a piece says something to only one person (even if it's the person who made it), to them it's still good art, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

  20. #19
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    My definition of art: anything created to provoke an emotional response (catharsis), is art. Good, bad, but never indifferent. When I look at abstract or modern art, it doesn't really elicit any response from me. That doesn't mean it's not art, just not good art. Of course this definition means that the "quality" of the art is entirely subjective, which is how I believe it should be. Even if a piece says something to only one person (even if it's the person who made it), to them it's still good art, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
    Well, if thats the case, then shock art is definitely on top of the charts, because it elicits more emotional responce than (arguably, mind you) any other art there is today. The problem i see with that is that it's not a positive responce. It's not aeshetically pleasing to view shock art, and, in my opinion, art should be aesthetically pleasing. On some level, not entirely, of course, but still.

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    Well, if thats the case, then shock art is definitely on top of the charts, because it elicits more emotional responce than (arguably, mind you) any other art there is today. The problem i see with that is that it's not a positive responce. It's not aeshetically pleasing to view shock art, and, in my opinion, art should be aesthetically pleasing. On some level, not entirely, of course, but still.
    I understand what you're saying on that, but I don't completely agree. One of the things I was saying is that shock art doesn't shock me. Of course, one of the arguments between "popular" art and "high" art is that while both get a reaction, the depth of the reaction is the indicator of quality.

    I also don't think necessarily think that art has to be pleasing in any way. Art can often times be used as a form of social commentary, hoping to jar established preconceptions.

    I do agree though that taking a shit in a bowl and calling it art will always be a bit of a tough sell for me.

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    Art renewal would be a lot better if they got rid of the pompous editorials and their
    hack gallery of 'living masters'. Most of what theyre trying to show as modern realist
    masterpieces are just boring and stagnant. Im not saying that they should start putting in splatter paintings and whatever, but theres more going on with figure work than just trying to render perfectly a la french academy. All the revolutionaries could do that too, but it was a means to an end. Art renewal presents this stuff as the pinnacle of creativity.

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by winjer
    ...hack gallery of 'living masters'. Most of what theyre trying to show as modern realist
    masterpieces are just boring and stagnant.
    Even that doesn't bother me as much as the people in there who do work that's weak conceptually AND technically, yet are included because they're vocal about toeing the party line and/or are pals with Fred Ross. If you're going to be a zealot, at least be consistant about it.

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