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I'm back!!! We've gotten settled into the new apartment and we just got the internet hooked back up. I decided to start a new thread to mark what is sort of a new start for me (and besides, the old thread had so much crap no one ever even looked at it anymore). I haven't had a whole lot of time to draw but I think I've spent it well, and I hope you guys agree. So this is what I've been working on guys and gals, rip it apart and make me better!!!!
Last edited by I_am; December 26th, 2004 at 05:50 AM.
Shading and rendering is your best skill. That creates the rest of your problems. Often people feel they can get away with a poorly drawn form by rendering the heck out of it to turn the form. Keep studying that anatomy. Be carefule of creating tangents like with the guy holding the axe, where the dark line between the sharp edge of the axe and shadow lines directly up with the dark line for the shoulder pad. This makes the axe difficult to read and flattens it out a lot there.
Thanks for the reply, Joe, and for the compliment (I think it was a compliment?) on my rendering. I know that alot of these are off, but I've done so many anatomy studies and applied what I've learned very little in imaginative work. I had to get these out of my system. I'll be doing alot more anatomical studies as time goes.
Thanks alot for tip on the axe/shoulder pad thing! I hadn't noticed but you're absolutely right. Any other specific things that are off?
thanks again for the reply.
Here's a couple more I just scanned in.
I agree with Joe, the studies are coming along nicely but I'd like to see even more. Loads of imaginative sketching going on but I think you can still improve in many areas. For example, your faces/heads and overall human form. Draw some stuff from life and it doesn't hurt to photo ref something as long as you break it down and form it. Just make sure you're learning. I think you've got tons of potential! Keep it up and we'll all be drifting around to see what else you're going to send our way!
Welcome back Jack ~ keep on keepin' on ~ do not render what cannot be saved ~ spend more time doing mo drawings and less time rendering.
Drawing and rendering are 2 separate issues actually. I great drawing does not need to be rendered much if any. The rendering pretty much takes care of itself when you capture the form.
We tend to render a lot when we are trying to impress people who know nothing about art.
Only show your work to other artist and you will get over that problem fast.
People who know nothing about art are a waste of time and will screw up your mind. ONLY SEEK KNOWLEDGE FROM THE KNOWLEDGEABLE!!!!!
The Bone Doctor
BS ~ Normal People Scare Me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
LOL, this is great. In my first sketchbook thread, all I did were studies and everyone kept telling me to put to use what I'd learned and do more stuff from imagination. Now everyone's telling me to go back to studies!
Just kidding, you guys. I know I have alot to work on and as you can see from my first thread here I actually do alot of studies. More than anything else, really. Still not too confident in my imaginative abilities. I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to reply, as well. I'll answer everyone individually.
Joeslucher - Thanks for the tip on the sternum, I'll remember that. I have Bridgeman's book and I love it. That's actually what I started drawing from. I'll check out Cody's book when I have a little cash. Pretty much tapped out from the move right now. Thanks for the tip, though!
Zebzfree - I know, you're right. Lots more studies for me. The head/face thing is my killer man. That's the only thing I've tackled thus far that's actually made me consider giving up. I just can't seem to visualize it as well as other parts of the body. And there are loads of other things that need work as well. Thanks tons for the encouragement, I appreciate it!
Rodrigo - Definitely! Like I said, heads are my biggest weakness I think, with the eyes being the hardest part for me. I don't know why, but I just can't see it in my mind, which makes it impossible to draw well. I'll work harder! Thanks alot for taking the time to reply!
Mentler - How's it going, man? I know, I know. But I wanted to practice rendering because I always seem to hit a wall with it. Maybe if the underlying form were better, eh? Alright, I promise no more over renderings, at least not for awhile. Strictly form and function for now. Oh, and I assure you I wasn't trying to impress anybody with these. Lol, I don't think that's possible.
Hey, you got an good tutorials on heads/faces over at your site? I really got to get better at those.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate all the comments/crits!
You want studies? You gots 'em! Combination of Bridgman, Sarah Simblet's illustrations from "Anatomy for the Artist", and my own imaginative studies. Trying to understand this thing we call a head. Why can't we jsut have a nice simply square on top of our spine, huh?
BTW, sorry for half-assed quality of the scans. My scanner is being a little bitch right now.
Man you don't play around! Keep 'em up! i want MORE! LoL Check out KChens thread in best of CA section. He's got some great study stuff for figures and heads in that thread. It really helped me out.
Thanks, man, for the tip on Kchen's thread. Don't know how I ever missed that, but damn he's got skills. I'll have more pages tomorrow, and probably some from that thread. Right now, it's bed time though. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
Ran out of paper yesterday, and didn't get a new sketchbook til today. Only did one page so far though. God this is aggravating the hell out of me. I just can't seem to figure out the head/face.
Anyway, studies from several sources including Kchen, Bridgman and my own imagination.
Cool stuff, I_Am!
Good to see you working on those basic understructures. I still work on mine a lot, it's one of my biggest weaknesses. Another thing that helps is lots of quick gesture drawings. Just the fluid poses and basic bubbles and shapes, to get used to putting the figure in motion, focusing on weight distribution and balance of composition. Ive done tons of that, but need more. It also helps when you are putting together all the parts of the anatomy on one figure. Keeps all the shapes working in harmony when you see them all juxtaposed like that.
I like the shading work, great job! And the alien looking dudes are sweet.
Keep plugging away man! Cheers!~~~JadeDragon
Thanks, JD. I'm trying. To be honest, with the gestures...I don't even know where to begin. I tried back in my other thread, a page or two, but I just didn't seem to be getting the "flow" of whatever I was drawing. Any tips or pointers, you could offer?
Thanks for the encouragement, as well, man. It means alot coming from someone whom I admire.
Okay, one more page. I actually did three pages today, but the other two were beyond crappy. I mean really REALLY REALLY horrible. I feel like I'm missing something with the head. I really don't know. I can do the muscle and skull drawings with no problem, with everything coming out in the right place (relatively anyway), but when I try to draw an actual head it comes out looking like this. I can't see it three dimensionally, and I really don't know what to do at this point. I don't want to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, but it seems like I am. If anybody can offer any help, ANY at all, I would be so appreciative.
Everything is was done from photo ref, Bridgman, and various anatomical drawings.
Here it is...
Another page of studies. Yeah, it's probably over rendered too, but I just got some blending stumps and wanted to play with them. Here it is...
Hey I (may I call you I?),
I can feel your frustration and it is my own. I am still trying to climb out of that hole (natural faces), but I found a couple things that helped me out a bit. Now, I was unable to go the life-drawing route, but photo references were an adequate substitute. I would take a photo of an interesting or difficult pose and draw from it, then take a new piece of paper and do something similar with what I learned from the first drawing. I learned about the lips, the far cheek, even that evil, despicable far eye. It was actually more rapid progress than I'd ever had before. The studies you're doing are great, but you can definitely tell when you're drawing from reference and drawing from your imagination. What you need to do is connect the two processes and drag your brain up to your eyes.
One of the things I can see you're doing right now is using symbols for features. As opposed to drawing a nose as it would be affected by the lighting (I'm not talking about full-on rendering, just line work), you draw THE nose you draw all the time, "hmm, there's the head, some eyes, THE nose... yup, yup, there are the lips...”
There's another way to look at line work that might appeal to you: instead of using the lines to outline the figure in a sort of coloring book format, think of the lines as value shifts. On a three quarter view, the front plane of the nose is often at the same angle as the far cheek, thus giving them very similar values. Between areas of very similar value, there is often no need to identify a value shift. I would still use light construction lines, but once you start getting good at proportions, you can modify your construction lines to something much more personal (I finally started shifting mine and love it!) and not have to rely on someone else's method of construction. I have actually moved to a bit of an outline and rectangular heads (those round ones were starting to bug me, because I just could resolve the shape and where to put the face).
Wow, this is getting long. So, to sum up, link life to brain, think values, modify others' rules to suit you. Still awake? Cool.
Dogfood, man, you can call me Josh (so can everyone else out there by the way). That was the single most comprehensive and thought-out reply I've ever gotten, and I appreciate it so much. Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, but I've been out all day and haven't had a chance to check the forums or draw or anything.
Okay, The drawing from reference and then from memory exercise I can do, and I'll jump on that as soon as I finish this reply.
The nose...THE nose. Yeah, I know what you mean. I got in such a habit of doing that when trying to figure out the masses of the face that I've started doing it all the time. Now here's my question (and we'll continue to use the nose as an example since it's here and convenient)...When drawing something, strictly linework with no rendering, where should line go? Should it be on the shadow side of the nose, with the lack of line on the opposite side representing the highlight? If this sounds like a stupid question, I apologize. It's just something I've never tackled before. I'm still such a noob. Mostly up to this point I've really only emulated other people's work (and spend gads of time learning anatomy), without thinking about WHY WHY WHY they put the lines where they do.
Now as for the value thing...admittedly, you lost me. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Okay, you said...
"On a three quarter view, the front plane of the nose is often at the same angle as the far cheek, thus giving them very similar values. Between areas of very similar value, there is often no need to identify a value shift"
How does this apply to laying down just lines? Do you mean that there's no need to even allow a line for the nose at that point? When the value of the far cheek is the same as the front of the nose?
Again, sorry if these are stupid questions. I feel stupid asking, but as of yet, I've gotta ask or I won't learn.
In any case, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I'm off to draw now!
Sorry I didn't reply earlier, Josh, but this time I was out of town.
Yeah, it's kind of a hard thing to get a grasp on when there is no real illustration of the point and just some Derf trying to write down something that is very visual. You are correct, though: you can use line to imply shadow vice merely surrounding the object. This will define the object's relationship with the lighting and its shape at the same time. It will certainly leave more of its shape to the imagination of the viewer, but that's a good thing; make them do a little of the work.
As far as the 3/4 view comment I made, you may not have to show much of the nose dependant upon the degree of lighting. You know, I think it would be better if I drew something to illustrate my point. Unfortunately, that means waiting until tomorrow.
Gosh, my first cliff-hanging post...
Thanks, man. I really appreciate all the help. This is what I did yesterday. the first page is all from reference (some are obviously strictly contour, no erasing type exercises). After drawing each of the two shaded heads from reference, I tried to duplicate (or at least semi-duplicate) each head on the following page from memory. No peeking. I think the ones from memory turned out better, but I think that's because I was actually thinking about what I was doing as I was drawing rather than just copying line for line. The third is just me over rendering again.
Can't wait til tomorrow dogfood!
Man, I'm hoping you haven't set yourself up for some incredibly illuminating treatise on art and all its aspects. I did run out of time for what I wanted to do, but with the knowledge that there are so many tutorials online (Loomis, Fred Flickstone's, etc.), I figured I could just point out what I was trying to say.
These are just a few 3-5 min examples, with the last showing similarly oriented planes on the face. My main point was to use line to suggest value shift. Just as you would actually depict different values when rendering, you can imply them with lines.
The profile view is one I use a lot to find out where various bits fall in relation to the rest when I'm doing an odd angle (like looking up). You can see that the nose is really high up. If I rotate around, I will get to the point where the nose is eclipsing one of the eyes and the mouth is even with the top of the ear. This is key to understand the extreme angles and what they do (foreshortening).
I hope this helps explain what I was talking about and that you aren't too disappointed with the explanation.
Damn, sorry it's taken me so long to come back to this. I swear I had more time when I was working 60 hours a week. Anyway, that was great, man. Thanks a bunch. I see exactly what you're saying now. Really appreciate you going to the trouble. That's a great idea about using the profile to set up a difficult angle too, I'll keep that in mind.
For some reason, I do find the profile ALOT easier to draw.
Okay, I had to step away from heads for a bit because it was just getting to me. I'll go back to them, but I really had to take a break. So I decided to do some reference drawings, and I went back to ink, because for some reason I seem to really let go when using a pen rather than a pencil. Anyway, all of these are from reference photos, except two, which are my wife. I snuck a couple when she was watching TV. She wants me to let you all know that her head is neither that big nor her face that fat. That's just my mad skillz at work.
Thanks, Argh! Here's some more for you....
Sumi brush, ink washes, charcoal. Was just having some fun the last couple of days.
all from life, photo ref and imagination.
Just a few things here. Quick charcoal sketch of my wife, some hands, and I started drawing a tree from photo ref, but didn't get very far. Nothing special tonight.
Figured up all the bills tonight, and found out my wife's not going to be making enough for me to go back to school. Gonna have to put it off again, and go back to work. Ahhh, such is life. Fun, ain't it? And so begins the job hunt....
Hey all. Some new pages here.
This first one is just something I was playing around with. Boring ass side-view perspective, I know. But I thought it was a neat idea anyway.
This is a WIP of a self-portrait. I'm really trying to take my time with this one and get everything perfect before I start rendering. Sort of following the steps in Fredflickstone's tutorial in the Life Drawing section. Haven't gotten very far yet.
Following JadeDragon's advice, a couple of pages of three minutes gestures from phot ref. Some of them turned out okay, but most are WAY off. I do think my line quality is improving though.
Speaking of line quality....This page is sort of an experiment. I want to work on using my arm to draw more than my wrist so I drew this sketch with a quarter inch long piece of graphite. Sort of forced myself to use my arm. Awkward at first but it got easier the more I did it.
Metal studies, drawn from life. I've come to the conclusion that brushed metal is very hard to render accurately.
two new pages. Some facial features and some shoulder studies.
Four more pages. From my unimaginative little brain.
~~~ good to see you doing good ~~~~
Couple of things here. First page, more boring fantasy sketches.
This is interesting though. Started painting the centurion guy sketch from an earlier post. This is a WIP. This whole thing will be a learning experience for me, because while I've colored line art in PS before, I've never tried to do a full painting over a sketch before. I'm having fun with it though. This is about 1.5-2 hours in. I know, I know much too long, but I'm learning!
EDIT: Hmmm...for some reason Imageshack keeps screwing up the pic. It uploads, but then shows up as a red X even on their site. Dunno. I'll try to figure it out and post it later.
Last edited by I_am; November 2nd, 2004 at 12:31 AM.