Art: 2nd of Many Cast Drawings - Now in post-completion perfectionist stage!!
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Thread: 2nd of Many Cast Drawings - Now in post-completion perfectionist stage!!

  1. #1
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    2nd of Many Cast Drawings - Now in post-completion perfectionist stage!!



    Howdy!

    Ok i have just completed my first *good* cast drawing, the ones prior to this were quite short and sloppy (before i really understood the idea and purpose of a cast drawing). Im fairly happy with the results, and it has taught me a lot, but i also see many errors in it (Thank you to mindcandyman and jason manley for their great help in identifiying what i was doing wrong). Anyhow here is the last one:



    As you can see, and as j astutely pointed out, i let my observations lie in either the mass shadow or mass light, neglecting to step back and observe the overall value relationships. This lead to me overestimating the strength of the bounce light which in turn makes the whole left side washed out and incorrect in value.

    My next cast drawing will be a black cast on a white background. Ive decided to do this one standing up with an easel, something i havn't attempted before ( i have used the easel only 3 or 4 times, for some very abstract colour paintings ). Im doing this so i can utilise the sight/size method that so many people have been encouraging me to do.

    Heres the setup:



    I will get started on this today, but if anyone has any complaints or suggestions about the way things are set up PLEASE dont hesitate to holler at me - ill gladly resstart if theres anything that will affect my drawing in the long run.

    Im asking for any help people can give me along the way - im planning to invest AROUND 30-40 hours in this so id rather the fuckups were identified 5 hours in rather than 35 hours in

    Thank you all in advance for your help...

    Form

    Last edited by Form; October 16th, 2004 at 09:00 AM.
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    sweet dude...that's a simple one too so it will be a bit easier than that foot...that foot was a really difficult one to start with. Your setup looks great...you might want to put a small light evenly lighting your paper and just let the bounced light from that hit the cast (no big deal) because it is imperative that your paper is one even value so you can judge the values you are putting down more clearly. For instance if the lower left of your paper is darker than the upper left...the marks you put in the lower left will inherently look darker (by nature) and it will cause some confusion. So try your best to get enough light on your paper. That's always a struggle that's for sure...especially when you have harsh lighting like on the casts. I can't wait to see you do this one...it's gonna be awesome I'm sure.

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    hehe yep my ceiling lihght was *just* in front of the easel, ive moved it now so the ceiling light shines on my paper.

    Damn.....black casts are hard..... should i use like an 8b for the darks, cos even at full pressure a 2/4b ends up a grayish silver

    (was doing some test strips)

    thanks for your faith

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    Honestly, you can hit the darks you want with anything. I achieved a pretty deep shadow with an H. The key is building up the values. You start with the lightest even tone and slowly work it up until it's as dark as you need it to be. Going straight for the darkest immediately will cause many problems. It just takes lots of patience to build that tone up to where you need it to be at. Have fun with the cast though, it looks like it'll be interesting. Don't rush yourself on it.

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    many thanks blackhawk

    ill try it out. im using mars lumograph pencils (blue with a white stripe and black bottom)

    i have hb, 2b, and 8b (2 of each) so i guess ill try the 2b and if it doesnt work out darke nough ill try touching over it with the 8b... or i could always invest in some 4b?

    anyway thanks for your recommendation - i will be a lot more patient on this one than the last i think, ive learned my lesson now!

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    The cast drawing is looking very good and nice set up Is that one of those 'natural' light bulbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk
    Honestly, you can hit the darks you want with anything. I achieved a pretty deep shadow with an H. The key is building up the values. You start with the lightest even tone and slowly work it up until it's as dark as you need it to be. Going straight for the darkest immediately will cause many problems. It just takes lots of patience to build that tone up to where you need it to be at. Have fun with the cast though, it looks like it'll be interesting. Don't rush yourself on it.
    -i was taught the other way around...to work with darks first and establish them and work down(lighter) rather then start light/medium and work up(darker)...i think im going to look into starting from med/light

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    i naturally like to work that way too mercer - some of my better drawings are done with graphite powder and then the 'light' erased out with a kneadable.... but thats ok for sketchy stuff..... with a cast drawing you have to be so precise, if you go too dark to start with, it will ruin your tone later on.

    Natural bulb?? Dunno.... it was in the lamp when i bought it

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    you could even use vine charcoal (sharpened with sandpaper) for this drawing if you wanted but nate is right about building up the tone. Also remember you are studying the value relationships as well. YOu will never be able to achieve the range of values we see in real life. So if you hvae to do something a bit lighter than what it actually that's fine just make sure the relationships between the values are the same.

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    i dont really understand charcoal.....well at all.

    i was going to do the first one in charcoal (after i read ur thread and saw thats what u used) but i cant for the life of me figure out how to use it. Every time ive tried, its been kinda like... black, or nothing.

    What is vine charcoal? maybe its different? but it just seems like charcoal gives u a black and white image as opposed to greyscale.

    I like charcoal for big life studies, where your b reaking down the values into 3 or 4 levels.... but i dont get how you could do a precise cast drawing with it....

    is vine charcoal different or something?

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    compressed charcoal is a bit like what you are talking about...it takes more care to use. Vine charcoal is good and bad because it can be blown off or wiped off the paper very easily. It's nice because it makes for easy changes but bad when you accidentally hit it with your finger or something heheh. What I do is sharpen it with some sandpaper to a long point (you have to have a bunch available and make sure to always keep your point sharp). This is the charcoal I am currently using but I am not a huge fan of it...but I can't find anything that's any better except my teachers vine charcoal that they got from Sweden or something while they were there...so here is the link if you want to try it out sometime:

    http://www.misterart.com/store/view/...in-3-Packs.htm

    Get the hardest charcoal...when the charcoal is hard you can lightly make strokes on the paper that can barely even be seen. Remember that you want to build up the tone...not go right on the paper with the exact value you need. At least that's the way I do things...painting is different...you go for the exact value (or I do at least)...but there really is no "right or wrong" way but you definitely can get a wide range of tones with charcoal you just have to learn to have be sensitive to how the medium is reacting...same thing with pencil. Lemme know if you need anymore help.

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    i think when i took painting is where i started going to the tone and blending out...very intresting how others can describe things which relate to you...im working on buiding tone. Hard Charcoal is def. in my supplies softer stuff even the blocks tend to have too much residue after using it...and its hard to work (unless upside) cause the residue will either roll down or be blown off and stil affect your piece....

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    thanks for the help mcm - i have ordered some of that stuff. i had some vine charcoal (that was what i thought i had) but im presuming its the super-soft variety. I will be posting some progress pics later today hopefully, ive done the lines and about 1/3 of the mass shadow.

    Im going to go

    *Lines *done*
    *Cover with midtone
    *Erase and darken to form 3 tone breakdown
    *Clarify core shadow
    *Tighten up details and add more levels of value
    *FUrther tightening, cracks, chips
    *Speculars

    sound like a plan?

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    i think you said you studied at an atelier? i was wondering exactly what that was. isnt like you apprenticed at an artists studio or something. also about how much does it cost to go to one of those? btw great work!

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    hey lostmyway, thanks for the compliment...

    its actually mindcandyman who attends the atelier (which is a type of art school). So you can ask him questions about that. I dont attend a formal school.

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    Sounds like a good plan form...just be sure not to skip the first step...it is the most important step seriously. Make sure that all the angles and everything are exactly right and I mean exactly...because the correctness of the rest of your drawing depends on that initial key stage or you will end up "faking" certain things to make it look right.

    lostmyway- I go to Pantura Studios. Go to http://www.panturastudios.com and click on the "students" button and they have all the info listed...if you have any more questions lemme know

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    OK....

    As i noted, my lines are *done*.

    I spent ages making them perfect. This cast is exponentially harder than the foot (line wise) because the foot had lots of turns and 'landmarks' that i could eyeball angles etc from. Because on this cast, the main lines are long smooth lines, its very hard to get the length and so on exact. I erased many of the lines 20-30 times and redid them...

    I dont want to cheat though and compare in photoshop or anything. I guess the more of these i do the better my eye will get at observing these relationships.

    When you do your cast drawings, jon, what sort of time frame do you work within. Cos im doing 2 week cast drawings basically, so im trying to budget my time for the different stages accordingly. I cant spend 13 days on the lines and then realise i have one night to blast all the tone in....

    Wat sort of budget do you get at the atelier?

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    *rolls eyes*

    gf's camera out of batteries. it will have to go on a brief sojourn to her house to refuel!!

    ill try to get progress piccys up as soon as possible!!

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    i was wondering if anyone knew of or knew where i look for atelier on the east coast!

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    lostmyway: can you please move your queries to pm or to the lounge.

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    We don't really have a time limit honestly. You work at a particular stage until you get it right..they won't let you move on until you do so that can be frustrating at times hehe but you really learn to do it right. We also do one day studies of the cast before we start them in order to work within a time limit and constraints and such. It's not good to think that you will have forever to work on one piece of art...that isn't financially realistic (for later). So working within a time constraint can be very good but it also can be a hindrance...it can hinder you because you will tend to move on with something that is just "acceptable" to get to the next part...but you also don't want to spend six years on one cast drawing. One suggstion could be just to do a long study of it...give yourself a while...about 120 hours or so...then try to do it in two days just as accurate (it can't be as accurate but it will train you). That' kind of up to you though...just be really critical of yourself throughout the whole process...look for the problems and analyze them. Have fun too...don't forget that

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    if your trying to get it realistic 6 hours isnt to much time to spent on a drawing? sometimes i spend a like 4-10 hours on a good drawing.

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    lostmyway: my current approx. budget is around 40-50hrs. the last one was 25ish, and thats not long enough.

    mcm: oh bugger, i forgot to have fun. thought i was missing something
    im kinda on a schedule with jason - i like having that pressure on me...makes me work a lot harder. once ive moved on to other assignments i will start a new cast drawing that i keep on the backburner while im doing other stuff. one that i can really spend time (200 hrs or so) getting absolutely poifect...without that feeling of deadline.

    Its going pretty well, btw

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    Good to see you working hard on this cast drawing Form. Ive been doing simlar long studies, not of casts, but of objects. I have a rendering class this semester, where we have 3 projects in total, and the first one is graphite, then oil, and lastly, acrylic. We have to spend at least 45 hrs. per assignment. It's going to be fun but tough. The good thing is that in the end you get a great piece(hopefully) that you can be proud of.

    Just keep us updated on how you're doing!

    I feel like we're on a similar boat right now...

    -Iwasink

    -http://iwasink.com/-
    DS Illustration
    "Get reference.
    There is nothing wrong with using a photo to help you see things.
    No one complains about life drawing,
    so take a photo.
    its easy, and will improve your piece greatly."
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    and my boats up shit creek wihout a paddle

    hit me up on aol, we can follow each others progress.

    well my girl is coming over in an hour or two so i can abuse her camera and take some progress snappys. tho u guys in the states r prolly sleeping now anyway....

    hehe

    crazy americans...

    peace

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    Ok progress is up.

    I still suck with this camera, im hoping theres just one crucial button i will press that will magically fix my problems.

    Your gonna have to try and trust me when i say that the darks are lighte rin real life, and the lights are darker.....

    i tried to remix the image as best i could in photoshop, but the results really cant compare....

    maybe trying a shot with some manual cameras would work?? are they more what-u-c-is-what-u-get or will i get the same prob??

    Anyway, ive just done the shape of the cast. the tone right now is a midtone, the light/dark areas of it are merely guides for me they dont actually follow the cast (so u know not to crit that yet) so really you cant judge any of the tone yet.

    as for line, i think the perspective of the canvas threw it a bit, but i just noticed the top of the cast - the uppermost tip - does not line up with that indent below it like in the photo. Im going to have to go back now and see if im actually that far off or if i was photographing from the wrong angle. Theres no WAY i could be that off, as the indent was one of the few clear clear landmarks i used.

    Anyway here is the progress, so at least u know im doing my work and not slacking !!

    hehe peace - f

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    wow, i checked in ps, and i fucked up the lines pretty bad in 3 places. im happy with the long curves of the thigh, but the groin area is off by a long shot, and the ankle is too high (it was actually originally lower, but it didnt look right - which i now realise is because of the groin problem). The butt is marginally off....

    attached is a photoshop with both layers merged.... u will see where its off.

    should i restart, or fix my current one?? I cant believe i was THAT off.... what makes you do that? How do i train my eye to see better? I guess the simple answer is to keep at these drawings haha!

    seriously tho.... im bewildered that it is that far off, after how many times i erased and redid that area....

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    fixed a lot of the mistakes. im so glad i worked up the pencil in layers instead of hitting down hard, or theres no way the eraser would have got a quarter of what it did. the piece is very very salvagable. dont have time for more piccys now, but rest assured its all going smoothly now....

    *hiccup*

    -f

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    how to do you go about checking size/angle and relationships? I usually use a pencil to compare them....so i would hold the pencil to the back of the leg and measure that length and compare it to other lengths...and also double checking angle...also keeping it real basic so that everything is on it's mark before you shade...but that is just 1 of a billion ways to approach it...just i guess in general break down before you build up...so you want have to tear up

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    i find the pencil method to inexact to bother with it.... i know many people use it effectively but i find my hand shakes, its hard to get the fingernail lined up... its just too uneconomical to keep trying to do it. I want to train my eye to be able to discern these measurement on its own - ultimately proving a greater reward.

    i have fixed those mistakes, i will try to take progress pics tonight if i can

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  30. #30
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    im not sure if you know this trick, but because you say you dont use a pencil or string or anything? do you messure?
    anyways, you can bounce your eyes back and forth from your cast to your drawing rapidly over and over and you will start to see shapes/angles/values moving out of place on your drawing, fix them as you see(it works really really well if your doing it sight-size, but it also helps alot if you arent) Also using a mirror will give you a fresh eye on your drawing after every 15-20mins or so.

    goodluck

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