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  1. #1
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    Art degree: a waste of time?

    hey guys, well recently ive found that i feel like im wasting my time at school with all the low level art classes, prequistes for the more challenging classes that you can actually learn from, and the useless GE classes that do nothing for me. i was just wanted to see if some pros out there can help me out with this. do protential employers even look at wether or not you have a degree in art? i hear differnt things all the time. like it looks better but not necessary, you need it, they dont care as long as you have the skills required to do your job.

    can someone please help me out with this??
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  3. #2
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    it helps a lot actually. i just dont want to take these useless GE classes like anthroplogy and geography and ... MATH... ugh i hated math. damn dyslexia....'

    also im tired for being in art classes where im not learning anything from my teachers. i'm just getting a "hey that looks good, or no that doesnt look good" I just feel like im wasting time being in a begging drawing class filled with "art major" who think that their degree will get them somewhere and not try at all in the class. im honesty thinking of dropping out and heading over to Watts or somewhere like that where i know i'd learn something in the class. i dunno i might just be in a crappy mood but it seems like im wasting my time stressing over GE classes that i know i'd forget about the week the finals done...
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    Hey Intern,
    I'll give you an opposing viewpoint, though I don't know that it will make your decision any easier.
    The first two years of my college experience were spent taking dumb art classes and GE's.
    Once I got to my third year things were so much better. My GE's were finished, I got to take art classes full time, and the teachers were much more helpful.
    I remember one of my teachers in particular saying that he was glad the students were required to take the GE's because it made them more well-rounded artists. They could take all that stuff they learned in literature, history, etc. and put it into their art. They ended up having a wider "pool" of knowledge to draw from.
    But I also remember him complaining about those beginning classes: "Didn't that color theory class teach you guys anything?"
    I agreed with him--didn't mind the GE's (even really enjoyed some) but really hated the beginner art classes.
    If I were you, I'd stick it out until you reach the upper level classes. See if they are any good. It'd be a shame to quit before you get to the good stuff, especially with the money you've put in.
    An idea to save money is to go to a cheaper state/community college and get those beginner/GE classes out of the way before transfering to the school of your choice. I don't know if that's an option for you, or if it's too late for that.
    About potential employers: no they don't care if you've graduated college; your portfolio speaks for itself. BUT a college degree says certain things about you.
    --You can jump through hoops. College requires quite a bit of this (like taking GE classes, for example ) and any employment situation will require some hoop-jumping at some point.
    --You can work with others.
    --You can accomplish tasks and get things done by deadline.
    --You can accomplish long-term goals (i.e. getting a four-year degree).

    Anyways, I'd hang in there a little longer before making a decision. I feel that I learned a lot from school and I am still in contact with people I went to school with, which makes for good connections. So just wait and see.

    emily

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    I don't know if a degree is a good thing, but an education certainly is.
    Community college is much cheaper than university so get all you can there.
    I just took a couple semesters of Life drawing and oil painting this past year. (I'm an old guy) I learned things I really wish i'd known long ago. Would they have helped me Get a job? I dunno' Would they have helped me DO the job? Definately.

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    i learned more about art in school than anywhere else. i still do what i learned every single day.

    if you dont feel like you are learning...then you are in the wrong school. dont blame the education system...blame the instructors you chose or yourself for attending a school that wasnt right for you.

    do your research on where you want to study....find the right place....

    j

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    After graduating design school I got a job through my display in vernissage (it's freelance but it's creative and non constraining) and I got a job through a very small part of my portfolio and a test (I showed my employers a few logos I did at school and this is now my full time job). Some people get hired just like that some people get hired throught their portfolios ... I guess it depends on your employer too. While no one I know nor me was ever asked for our degrees by people interviewing I am sure the employers look at that on your CV. Mostly though when you are in art or design or photography people tend to look at your portfolios not really your CV. They want to know what you can do, CV is secondary but it is still a factor.

    As for the other classes ... well think about it: math - geography - geology - anthropology, not related to art right, boring. Now think of this. You are going to school which specializes in one thing... art (or whatever you are taking). When you graduate that's all you'll know, how to draw (or whatever it was you studied). How are you going to draw things like landscapes if you don't know anything about geography, or cars if you don't know some mechanics, or human body if you don't know anatomy (this one is covered), or animals if you don't know some biology, etc. So maybe you should look at all the things you are learning as help in your studies rather than feel so negative about it. Knowledge is a continuous thing, humans just took it and divided it up in order to handle information better. Think about it.

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    Another thing to bear in mind as you decide whether to stick with it or not is that a degree *will* count more than no degree if you are forced to fall back on other means to support yourself other than concept art. I promised myself that I would never ever never never never become a teacher, especially not in grade school. After a year of job searching I was given an oppurtunity to teach at a fairly decent salary while I completed a small amount of education classes to become a certified classroom teacher. Beats the shit out of digging postholes or being a butcher, which were about all my job experience had been up to college.
    As Lord Cardigan said to the Light Brigade, "Just canter down the valley toward Balaklava, fellows. Nothing to worry about." -W.E.B. Griffin

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    Going to college for art is like taking a republican sponsored seminar on ethical polotics. Or going to a Unesco charity fund raiser on 'family values.'

    Everything must please us. Everything you do must be graded, rated, dissected and analyzed. You must conform to our higher standards. We force you through the least helpful part of education to beat down your defense; to dumb you down and continue to take your money constantly telling you to strive, maintain and exceed with no other real reason, but to control the last bastion of free thinking: art. We don't teach, we preach. We fill your mind with gummy thoughts of abstraction, distracting you from reality, keeping you busy with nothing; nothing that you MUST learn.

    On the other hand:

    Polygons, textures, advanced architectual engineering... you need schooling for that.

    Ultimately, you have it within yourself to become a great artist; breaking the barriers that YOU designate. You can't learn anything you already know. Its hidden, sure... but for crying out loud, there's books galore on art education. There are shows, there are shops, there are sites.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida
    How are you going to draw things like landscapes if you don't know anything about geography, or cars if you don't know some mechanics, or human body if you don't know anatomy (this one is covered), or animals if you don't know some biology, etc. So maybe you should look at all the things you are learning as help in your studies rather than feel so negative about it. Knowledge is a continuous thing, humans just took it and divided it up in order to handle information better. Think about it.
    Let me show you something...

    Art degree: a waste of time?

    This was one of my mom's first paintings; acrylics from a National Geographic. She was self taught. This wasn't after even a year of it, it was one of her very first that she ever tried. In a month she watched the Joy of Painting so many times she just picked it right up.

    You don't need to go to school to learn geography unless you're going to be drawing elevation maps for the US government. There's no point in making constraints and applying ideas designed by some kind of upper eschelon 'club' that decides that paper controls the artist instead of the other way around. You want to learn about nature? Spend time in the woods. You want to know mechanics? Buy an old car and learn to work on it. Want to know anatomy? Cyclopedia Anitomicae (great book). If you can be taught something then you already had the ability to know it. Rather then go to school to learn the static, useless formulas, live a little, explore, study, question, expose yourself to the environment around you. You can't TEACH anyone to be an artist. Schooling is all about a system of control. About making you become what THEY want you to become. An artist needs insipration to grow and improve, not dictation.

    I'm not talking about taking life drawing courses or painting classes or stuff like that. That's fine. That's going out and getting yourself educated. But paying for tuition and learning the most superflous along with the most pious is a poisonous environment to grow in.

    Personally, I piss on the institution of scholars and professors who have invented themselves as a clergy class. I doubt any of this helped, as its all just my opinion.
    "They were born, they grew up in the gutters, they went to work at twelve, they passed through a brief blossoming period of beauty and sexual desire, they married at twenty, they were middle-aged at thirty, they died, for the most part, at sixty. Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer, and, above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds."

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    I used to feel the same way about an art school; however, after taking classes from Kevin/ Feng it really opened my eyes. I’m sure most of us taken the advance classes at our community college, and to this day I wonder how did they sink their jobs. I remember I was partially begging for them to do a demo but they all refused.

    As for employers- big companies don’t care about your degree but mostly about you’re past work experience at other companies. However, like most of us that have to start at a mah and pah shop to get our first job, they may choose the person with an education: since it’s a reassurance for them you’ll have the discipline to get the job done. (not always true but it make sense)

    The other advantage to going to an art school is making connections and just all around friends that are interested in the same field. Friends are always giving out tips and tricks on how to do things (more so than the instructors haha).

    And last if you graduate from a school (hopefully a good one- gota do your research) then in theory you earned the necessary materials to survive In a already horrifically competitive world. If anything school teaches you discipline. Now all this can go straight to hell in a hand basket if the student is a lazy foo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilock138
    Going to college for art is like taking a republican sponsored seminar on ethical polotics. Or going to a Unesco charity fund raiser on 'family values.'

    Everything must please us. Everything you do must be graded, rated, dissected and analyzed. You must conform to our higher standards. We force you through the least helpful part of education to beat down your defense; to dumb you down and continue to take your money constantly telling you to strive, maintain and exceed with no other real reason, but to control the last bastion of free thinking: art. We don't teach, we preach. We fill your mind with gummy thoughts of abstraction, distracting you from reality, keeping you busy with nothing; nothing that you MUST learn.

    On the other hand:

    Polygons, textures, advanced architectual engineering... you need schooling for that.

    Ultimately, you have it within yourself to become a great artist; breaking the barriers that YOU designate. You can't learn anything you already know. Its hidden, sure... but for crying out loud, there's books galore on art education. There are shows, there are shops, there are sites.



    Let me show you something...

    Art degree: a waste of time?

    This was one of my mom's first paintings; acrylics from a National Geographic. She was self taught. This wasn't after even a year of it, it was one of her very first that she ever tried. In a month she watched the Joy of Painting so many times she just picked it right up.

    You don't need to go to school to learn geography unless you're going to be drawing elevation maps for the US government. There's no point in making constraints and applying ideas designed by some kind of upper eschelon 'club' that decides that paper controls the artist instead of the other way around. You want to learn about nature? Spend time in the woods. You want to know mechanics? Buy an old car and learn to work on it. Want to know anatomy? Cyclopedia Anitomicae (great book). If you can be taught something then you already had the ability to know it. Rather then go to school to learn the static, useless formulas, live a little, explore, study, question, expose yourself to the environment around you. You can't TEACH anyone to be an artist. Schooling is all about a system of control. About making you become what THEY want you to become. An artist needs insipration to grow and improve, not dictation.

    I'm not talking about taking life drawing courses or painting classes or stuff like that. That's fine. That's going out and getting yourself educated. But paying for tuition and learning the most superflous along with the most pious is a poisonous environment to grow in.

    Personally, I piss on the institution of scholars and professors who have invented themselves as a clergy class. I doubt any of this helped, as its all just my opinion.



    I couldnt disagree with you more. art is something handed down from teacher to student...mentor to protoge...for over five hundred years. who are you to say that path is wrong?

    leyendecker studied under bougereau (in school), foster and phil hale studied under rick berry, egon schiele studied under gustave klimt, john leon gerome was mentored by paul delaroche, ingres by david, and thousands more.

    i would be nowhere without my art schooling. matter of fact, conceptart.org would not exist.

    open your mind a little...there are valid ways to learn both from being self taught and from seeking a mentor situation in art school.


    cheers


    j


    J
    Last edited by el coro; September 11th, 2004 at 04:01 PM.

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    Im still in art school and sure there's several courses that dont really make you grow as an artist. And you will get fat loan that you probably never gonna earn enough to pay back. But that doesn't really matter.

    The life experience you will get is worth it all, it will make you grow as a person. And when grow as a person you will grow as an artist to. If you wouldn't go to an art school you'd probably have some really boring day job and do your art only in the evenings.

    And another important thing is all the people you meet. You'll spend everyday with other artist that will inspire you. Thats something you cant get anywhere else... (and dont try and say conceptart.org, its not the same thing!)

    But maybe Im wrong. I consider being an artist a lifestyle and not just a job.

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    I am at www.eciad.ca right now in the middle of my integrated media degree. I do have to say that University was a much different world than I had anticipated but it was and is for the better BY FAR

    I just think of that dream job where they actually DO look at my resume and see that I didn't have a degree, and passed on me. It would kill me to know that and the one thing I promised myself is not to have ANY regrets or any what if's in my life.

    I have gained so much from University in terms of networking, developing skill sets I wouldn't have even considered otherwise, and lol budgeting.

    I think some people expect University to be the end all and be all of getting you to exactly where you want to and it can but it depends on EXACTLY what you make of it, not what it makes of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilock138
    *Ultimately, you have it within yourself to become a great artist; breaking the barriers that YOU designate. You can't learn anything you already know. Its hidden, sure... but for crying out loud, there's books galore on art education. There are shows, there are shops, there are sites.

    * If you can be taught something then you already had the ability to know it. Rather then go to school to learn the static, useless formulas, live a little, explore, study, question, expose yourself to the environment around you. You can't TEACH anyone to be an artist. Schooling is all about a system of control. About making you become what THEY want you to become. An artist needs insipration to grow and improve, not dictation.

    *But paying for tuition and learning the most superflous along with the most pious is a poisonous environment to grow in.
    Quote Originally Posted by el coro
    I couldnt disagree with you more. art is something handed down from teacher to student...mentor to protoge...for over five hundred years. who are you to say that path is wrong?
    Art is not handed down firstly. Its inherited, big difference. Teachers are rarely mentors and the antiquity of those beliefs is just that; antique. People are born and as they grow they *realize* that they have predisposed talent. For some people traditional art is as natural to them as someone who is naturally built well without much excercise. You can't teach someone something genetically passed down.

    You misunderstand my reasons. I apologize for not clarifying:

    1) I believe schools (especially popular ones) are detrimental.

    This is because you are surrounded by the worst examples of the 'flock' herding to schools. They pack in, use up good space, drive tuition costs up and generally block the entrance of more heartfelt artist (reflecting the dire conditions the public education system is in; colleges are now following suit).

    2) I believe that being privately tutored is a good thing.

    As in, having mentors. And the real truth is you can do that without wasting a TON of cash.

    Right now I could afford college. I agree there are valid ways of learning more from being self taught and having a mentor, but neither of those expose young minds to the massive amounts of social retardation abundant in, I'm sorry, the 'art community.' It also doesn't hurt to abborogate the entire school equation since the most likely scenario is this: pay 30 thousand dollars for a 20 thousand dollar job.

    School can't give you imagination and inspiration nor will it give you the real artistic ability of translating either of those into something visible. And if you find them in a scholastic atmosphere and its worked for you, then go with it. But don't say you won't find it anywhere else. You will. more of it.

    The only real, possible thing that you can get from schooling is guidance. And in that case, only if you are in contact with sincere teachers. And guidance can be found wherever you look. Its the age old dogma of 'sticking with what works' even after its started to break down that confines us to draw barriers like lines on a map that hold us.

    A friend of mine in school could do portraits of people in phhotos dead on. I mean, good looking portraits. He was not an artist. He couldn't think outside that. He couldn't devise or imagine or translate that. He could make a perfect copy. He just couldn't create anything. So when he went to Scad he took Art History. He said he wanted to become an art teacher. "That's great" I told him. He was telling me about his courses in scad: drawing, sculpting, etc. and it suddenly occurred to me that he was being taught how to simply copy other stuff. He still wasn't creative and he still wasn't imaginative. Oh, he was clever a-plenty, but lacked a drop of imagination. Technically he was astounding, but there was no depth or meaning. Sure, as an art teacher he could teach middle-school students to shade properly and in the strictest definitions he would be teaching art, but he wouldn't be helping any artist. In fact, the 9 people (went to HS with 5) that I asked about Scad (while I was seriously considering going) told me it was either for the credentials or shrugged and said, "Its okay I guess. I'm not really learning anything worth 16,000..." and then generally justified it some other way.

    I only know two guys who went to scad for something they said you can't learn on your own: game design/programming/modeling and all that great stuff. Another one dropped out and went to law school in seattle or something.

    my point is:

    If you want to be a successful artist to make money; go ahead, but if you can't control the waves of intense needs to build and create then don't stifle your imagination by cutting it off. the only thing I'm doing is warning: when you go to school you will be molded by people without the right to mold you.

    Quote Originally Posted by al-x
    And another important thing is all the people you meet. You'll spend everyday with other artist that will inspire you. Thats something you cant get anywhere else... (and dont try and say conceptart.org, its not the same thing!)
    Unless being surrounded by posers inspires us through internal rage, then I must disagree. And if you really think you can't find that somewhere else then you just haven't been out enough.

    Edit: I'd like to point out that I'm not talking about programming, computer arts or anything of that sort. Some things require schooling simply for the technical skills involved. I've been talking about artistic nature, not the definition of art.
    "They were born, they grew up in the gutters, they went to work at twelve, they passed through a brief blossoming period of beauty and sexual desire, they married at twenty, they were middle-aged at thirty, they died, for the most part, at sixty. Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer, and, above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds."

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    While genetics definitely play a role, in my experience all skill is earned through hard work.

    All humans are born as creatures who create. We all create everything in our experience constantly. The very language we use is an incredible form of creation and symbolic expression. Thats a given, there's no gene for creativity. Everyone focuses their energy differently, towards different goals, and ends up creating something different from anyone else. So the people who are great at drawing, are so because they focused tons of their time and energy into the craft.

    To my mind, we're not just riding the gene-train, we're steering it.

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    i will just answer some of these points.

    A. Antique...strange that I was in school just six years ago. I never knew six years was considered antique. Your lack of knowledge on this subject is apparent. It is unfortunate that there are so few great teachers out there that you have concluded there are none. There are many...though few...if you just look you will find them. I did. I travelled all over the USA to study with the teachers whom held the knowledge I was thirsting for. I still do what I was taught by them on a daily basis. Art related and not.

    1. The majority of the artists who have progressed far on their path whom I personally know have had art schooling. There are wonderful exceptions even on this site, such as marko djurdjevic or noxizmad who are all self taught. However, art schooling is far from detrimental.

    2. I agree, private instruction is a great way to learn. However, learning from the group of students around you is just as key. One of the points during schooling is to absorb multiple perspectives so that you may choose your own. This is hard to do without peers but nothing is impossible.

    3. There is less "art retardation" as you say it studying with a school of artists than there is in the normal populace. That is one of the biggest benefits of going to art school...being around artists...good and bad...learning takes an open mind. someone you might think is "retarded" artistically may be the one who says that one statement about art that changes your whole view. Which...comes back to having an OPEN mind while learning.

    4. I found my art education in school. 95 percent of it at least. There are many ways to learn.

    5. Guidance is the purpose of going to school...focused guidance surrounded by hundreds doing the same thing...albeit some more focused than others. guidance can be found everywhere. you are right. though, a long term opportunity to do work of your own direction in a microcosm like art schools provide is obviously a viable way to become an artist in this world here. Click thru the commercial artists on the main page...yeah...almost all of them have years of art school behind them. It is the easiest path to it. It isnt like there are guilds teaching nine year old children anymore.

    6. You go by one persons experience and word of mouth. I don't know if I would go and form personal opinions on things which I have no personal experience. You could focus on creativity in art school if you want. One of the things they do push is developing your brain to be able to understand what you see...among the hundreds of other things. The point of that exersize is not to be a copy machine...it is to reach a point of mind where you can look at something and get an instant understanding of it even though it is complex. If you understand something...like the human figure...then you can create with it from nothing but your inspirations and art tools...you can abandon it even...the point is to have the artistic skills to create anything you wish..virtuoso..professional...beautiful... or horrendous.


    7. There is no difference in going to school for video game design or fine art or illustration. If you want to be able to do something then you can focus on that and reach your goals. Sure, it is possible to do that on your own. Maybe you live by a painter who you admire her work, maybe your father is a sculpter, maybe there is a great musuem with free admittance....but, where else can you surround yourself by hundreds of others passionate to degrees about art and ideas on a daily basis.


    8. I'm not sure that you understand what it is possible to do in an art school as much as you do with struggling on your own and self teaching. Either way learning is a struggle of course. As far as the right not to learn (be guided) from others...not sure I understand that statement.

    9. kind of elitist....dont ya think? Of course the internal impulse is ones own. However I have been inspired by teachers on many occasions. Come to the workshop and see for yourself. Go in the workshop forum and ask them if they became any way inspired by watching their teachers and instructors or being around the artists there of ALL levels of passion and skill. If you don't have first hand experience then you could get many opinions before formulating one based on them.


    one does not have to go to school to become great. there is much proof of that. one can also use art schooling to their benefit. neither way is any better or worse of a decision if it is the right one for you.






    Quote Originally Posted by Devilock138

    A. Art is not handed down firstly. Its inherited, big difference. Teachers are rarely mentors and the antiquity of those beliefs is just that; antique. People are born and as they grow they *realize* that they have predisposed talent. For some people traditional art is as natural to them as someone who is naturally built well without much excercise. You can't teach someone something genetically passed down.

    You misunderstand my reasons. I apologize for not clarifying:

    1) I believe schools (especially popular ones) are detrimental.

    This is because you are surrounded by the worst examples of the 'flock' herding to schools. They pack in, use up good space, drive tuition costs up and generally block the entrance of more heartfelt artist (reflecting the dire conditions the public education system is in; colleges are now following suit).

    2) I believe that being privately tutored is a good thing.

    As in, having mentors. And the real truth is you can do that without wasting a TON of cash.

    3. Right now I could afford college. I agree there are valid ways of learning more from being self taught and having a mentor, but neither of those expose young minds to the massive amounts of social retardation abundant in, I'm sorry, the 'art community.' It also doesn't hurt to abborogate the entire school equation since the most likely scenario is this: pay 30 thousand dollars for a 20 thousand dollar job.

    4. School can't give you imagination and inspiration nor will it give you the real artistic ability of translating either of those into something visible. And if you find them in a scholastic atmosphere and its worked for you, then go with it. But don't say you won't find it anywhere else. You will. more of it.

    5. The only real, possible thing that you can get from schooling is guidance. And in that case, only if you are in contact with sincere teachers. And guidance can be found wherever you look. Its the age old dogma of 'sticking with what works' even after its started to break down that confines us to draw barriers like lines on a map that hold us.

    6. A friend of mine in school could do portraits of people in phhotos dead on. I mean, good looking portraits. He was not an artist. He couldn't think outside that. He couldn't devise or imagine or translate that. He could make a perfect copy. He just couldn't create anything. So when he went to Scad he took Art History. He said he wanted to become an art teacher. "That's great" I told him. He was telling me about his courses in scad: drawing, sculpting, etc. and it suddenly occurred to me that he was being taught how to simply copy other stuff. He still wasn't creative and he still wasn't imaginative. Oh, he was clever a-plenty, but lacked a drop of imagination. Technically he was astounding, but there was no depth or meaning. Sure, as an art teacher he could teach middle-school students to shade properly and in the strictest definitions he would be teaching art, but he wouldn't be helping any artist. In fact, the 9 people (went to HS with 5) that I asked about Scad (while I was seriously considering going) told me it was either for the credentials or shrugged and said, "Its okay I guess. I'm not really learning anything worth 16,000..." and then generally justified it some other way.

    7. I only know two guys who went to scad for something they said you can't learn on your own: game design/programming/modeling and all that great stuff. Another one dropped out and went to law school in seattle or something.

    my point is:

    8. If you want to be a successful artist to make money; go ahead, but if you can't control the waves of intense needs to build and create then don't stifle your imagination by cutting it off. the only thing I'm doing is warning: when you go to school you will be molded by people without the right to mold you.



    9. Unless being surrounded by posers inspires us through internal rage, then I must disagree. And if you really think you can't find that somewhere else then you just haven't been out enough.

    Edit: I'd like to point out that I'm not talking about programming, computer arts or anything of that sort. Some things require schooling simply for the technical skills involved. I've been talking about artistic nature, not the definition of art.

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    The bottom line for me is that I could learn by myself, but I can learn faster with professors at my back. If they're good, they'll know what they're talking about and be open-minded. You get the interaction with the other students, access to equipment and facilities you couldn't get on your own, you get a collaborative, stimulating atmosphere. At least that's what you get if you're at the right school.

    I'm glad to say that I made a good choice (I'm doing one of the most respected bachelor of fine arts programs in my country), but what was a good choice for me may not be a good choice for you.
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    Hey el_coro thanks a lot for spending your time to reply to me. i know you have very little time and i really appreciate you responding to me

    just to clear something up, i go to California State University Fullerton. im not down playing the abilty of any of the instructors there, on the contrary i think a great deal about them, but when your in a life drawing class with 40 people and the only way to get a good/ helpful critique from him/her is to saty after class then theres something wrong there with the teacher student ratio. also im finding the the GE classes such as anthropology, geography, and such are only giving me stress and im not learning or getting the education i thought i would be. if i were to drop out i would either go to Watts or maybe Art center or an art institute. i know that i'd be follish of me to just learn on my own. i could do it, but i would be afraid it might be longer and more difficult road. i know it is a VERY good idea to get a degree at least for the "well rounded" education i would get, but the fact is that the education system is not a very good one. half the stuff i "learned" in math, anthro, communications, and other GE classes have slipped my mind in the short 3 months since i passed the class. it just seems like a waste of time to work that long for a class and cram and study and get stressed over something that im not going to rember 3 months later. i just feel that my time could be better spent studing strictly art (ive passed my math and english and what not so i think i have the necessary education down)

    any opinions on that?
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    This was one of my mom's first paintings; acrylics from a National Geographic. She was self taught. This wasn't after even a year of it, it was one of her very first that she ever tried. In a month she watched the Joy of Painting so many times she just picked it right up.
    She's good, sure for a fine artist. Why don't you ask her to draw some characters for a game or maybe design some vehicles for a space shooter or hell some environments for a movie set. Can she produce this on a regular basis or does she need some time to inspire herself, say a month or two. "Joy of Painting" maybe a program but it's like what you would learn in a classroom just less professional, more like for a "weekend artist" sort of thing.

    You don't need to go to school to learn geography unless you're going to be drawing elevation maps for the US government. There's no point in making constraints and applying ideas designed by some kind of upper eschelon 'club' that decides that paper controls the artist instead of the other way around. You want to learn about nature? Spend time in the woods. You want to know mechanics? Buy an old car and learn to work on it. Want to know anatomy? Cyclopedia Anitomicae (great book).
    How much money and time do you think a person has? I am not interested in becoming a mechanic nor do I particularly like to go out into the woods (allergies and bugs you see). Hey reading books is great I totally agree and I do it on a regular basis while I take the bus to work and back. You get condensed and particular knowledge in classes and somethings that cannot be learned unless passed on from a teacher (ofcourse you probably wouldn't know that but some things cannot be explained in books or self-taught). How are you supposed to learn all that while working and doing your other "life things" and not being a total social shut out?

    Rather then go to school to learn the static, useless formulas, live a little, explore, study, question, expose yourself to the environment around you. You can't TEACH anyone to be an artist. Schooling is all about a system of control.
    All that is true ... maybe in the 17th century when school was a form of control. I beg to differ about not being able to teach someone to be an artist. Where there is a will there is a way. Sure some people are born talented (whatever it may be) and they have a kick start on others, but if they don't do anything about it they will become like everyone else ... mediocre. If you want to be someone then you will be that someone no matter what, it's all a matter in how much you really want it and what you are willing to do about it. Like one of my teachers said "10% inspiration 90% perspiration". Sure there are a few geniuses here and there that see the world that much different from the rest of us but they are the exception not the rule. You make art out to be some kind of a "touchy feely thing" when art is a broad subject from fine to commercial; and in commercial art (the stuff that puts bread on your table) is where people dictate to you what they want. You think that people in the Renaissance were doing it all to say something?

    You can't learn anything you already know.
    Art is not handed down firstly. Its inherited, big difference. Teachers are rarely mentors and the antiquity of those beliefs is just that; antique. People are born and as they grow they *realize* that they have predisposed talent. For some people traditional art is as natural to them as someone who is naturally built well without much excercise. You can't teach someone something genetically passed down.
    Huh? Is this some kind of untapped genetic knowledge like in Akira? You seem to think that people are born into who they are not what they make themselves to be. Don't think that people that are part of this site did nothing to become so good and it's just a breeze for them. Many of them worked hard to become so good and studied just as hard. They don't have a magical wand that poops out paintings on demand. By saying that you devalue all their hard work.

    School can't give you imagination and inspiration nor will it give you the real artistic ability of translating either of those into something visible. And if you find them in a scholastic atmosphere and its worked for you, then go with it. But don't say you won't find it anywhere else. You will. more of it.
    Oh yes it can. It can make you inspired and competitive. Seeing the work of your peers is inspiring and just drives you to be so much better. I must repeat myself, some things cannot be perceived unless it comes directly from a teacher, it's a kind of insight. Text in a book and on screen is static ... how do you ask questions, how do you know when you are doing something wrong or right? There is no replacement for a teacher/tutor. Think of it like standing on the shoulders of giants.

    About making you become what THEY want you to become. An artist needs insipration to grow and improve, not dictation.
    Who are they? The teachers? The government? The illuminati? If they wanted to control you so badly why would they charge so much? They aren't catering to the lowest common denominator, that's not very productive.

    Oh, he was clever a-plenty, but lacked a drop of imagination. Technically he was astounding, but there was no depth or meaning.
    Before you can be inspired and draw all your amazing art you have to know the basics. I guess Einstein went through all that useless schooling and was able to poop out a formula because his genes suddenly woke up. He just had a different take on physics but he still had to learn how to add and substract. His papers on relativity took 5 years to write, that's hardly a flick of a wand.

    "Its okay I guess. I'm not really learning anything worth 16,000..." and then generally justified it some other way.
    Hey I totally agree with that guy. Education should be funded by the government and in the US it's a ripoff just like everything else ... but that's what you get in a capitalist country. Don't like it? Move to Canada, become Canadian. Education here is dirt cheap (I paid 100 can $ for a semester in school), or vote for someone who can make that change in your contry. Don't suffer in silence. Some people in US I know had to go to the military in order to earn more money to be able to attend college and get a decent education. These people had to go through hell and high water so that they could get where they wanted to be.

    I worked with people who were high-school drop outs in a printing press place. I feel very bad for them ... they didn't know anything about life, it was scary. They weren't bad people it was just so sad to see that they belived in some things that weren't true and it's all common knowledge. With their CV's they couldn't get hired anywhere else. I say just be thankful that your mom can afford to paint those paintings in her spare time and not spend her time working like a coal pony like all those other poor shmuchks that didn't go to college or school who have to have 2 full time jobs and still live in a van.

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    Oh, you go to cal state fullerton? I live off of yorba linda blvd.

    If we didn't have the internet... I would probably be interested in art school... but this basically is an art school... I gain a massive amount of knowledge from being on CA. More than enough to fully support me in whatever I desire to work on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devilock138

    Unless being surrounded by posers inspires us through internal rage, then I must disagree. And if you really think you can't find that somewhere else then you just haven't been out enough.
    Hey... Im 24 years old. I've held several diffrent jobs before applying to art school. I've also studied computer science for two years prior to art school. And moved around a lot...
    You dont find the University spirit anywhere else than at a University. Sure it depends on you of course, if you just see it as stepping stone to your future job you will miss out on a lot. Try to live for the moment instead it makes it more fun and it will make even the boring classes feel fun. You can always make a boring assignment fun when your at school. That wont be able when your working.

    And about the posers, think before applying to your school. I didn't apply to the most famous of the art schools here in Sweden, just because I know thats where the majority of the posers will be. And I choose to major in illustration just because there are less posers there. Thats atleast how it is here, it might be diffrent in the states.

    But still, the posers should never be anything to worry about. Why should you even care if they are posers or not. It wont effect your education, if you wont let it.
    Last edited by al-x; September 12th, 2004 at 06:12 AM. Reason: forgot something

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    I dunno guys I am conflicted on this subject.

    The one thing I will say is that education is important. Wether this education comes from a university, private school, mentor, or private classes. In the end no one knows absolutely everything and there is always more to learn. I think the choice of which of these venues is right for you depends on you the person. I know I myself learn better in a smaller school environment and thats why I am at the smaller private school I go to here in Washington.

    One of the things that I have not really seen mentioned here that is vitally important to the scuccess of being an artist is the contacts and connections. True most believe that it is your portfolio that is important, I agree, but that is only half of the equation. The other part of being successful is knowing who to put your portfolio in front of.

    My first semester at school I had a drawing teacher that I had very little faith in her ability to render people, objects, scenery. She relied heavily on gesture in all of her work and never once did I see anything from her that was a solid fully rendered drawing. She left our school after one semester because she got a grant for three years funding to do her own fine art. So I asked myself how did she do that? She knew who to put her work in front of to succeed.

    So having connections is an important part of your success which if you choose to pursue your education on your own may be a lot more difficult. I know that at my school that is one of the things that they stress more then anything when you come close to graduation. It is also because of this that my school has a 85-90% placement rate for all of our graduates because they make connections in school that get them employed. I also hate to say it but this is the industry standard for animation, film, and video games. When was the last time you saw an open posting for concept job at a larger company? These jobs get filled by word of mouth and if you go to school with many other artists you raise your chances of knowing that guy that did that thing with the other guy who is hiring for the job you want.

    So my advice to you |NTeRN, take inventory of what you have, where you want to be and what it is that's gonna get you there. Thats the only way your gonna know if you should drop out of school/change schools or stay in the school where your at.
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    hey devilock

    I think your mom's painting is cute

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    I didn't bother reading the whole thread, I'm way to lazy to do it, so if I'm saying something thats already been said, just ignore me.

    "Art degree: a waste of time?"
    No, its not. If you use that time wisely, and make good use of your opportunities, then its not. Though, I think you mean, "Is an art degree worth the money?". It depends, I think if your naturally dedicated to art, like, you don't force yourself to "practice", but you're obsessed with drawing, then an art degree may not be worth your money. Maybe you could take a few life drawing coarses, and some other classes, and become better own your own. BUT, if you're not like that, then maybe art college and getting a degree is worth the money. Art colleges make you practice, if you don't, you flunk, and waste a bunch of money. No one wants that, no matter how undedicated you are. So art colleges provides a deterrent for not practicing.

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    im curious devil lock. Have you been toa good art school?
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    my 2 cents

    Art school was worth it to me. I went to ringling. i already had an associates in liberal arts so all my non art classes transfered. it was great to just take art classes and not worry about some math class bringing me down or distracting me. if there's some GE class you really don't want to take see if it's offered as a summer session at a local junior college. school can be a great experience, takin 4 years to work on your art. i worked part time and full time in the summers. School is a time to reach for your full potential and be inspired to do your best by the students and instructors.

    going to art school is no guarentee of a job. i'd say it helps your odds. i found my job through my school job bank, so my schooling is paying for it's self. my income went up by 40%. those school resources are available to me for life.

    i see school as an investment in myself. and so far it's paying off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida

    1 She's good, sure for a fine artist. Why don't you ask her to draw some characters for a game or maybe design some vehicles for a space shooter or hell some environments for a movie set. Can she produce this on a regular basis or does she need some time to inspire herself, say a month or two. "Joy of Painting" maybe a program but it's like what you would learn in a classroom just less professional, more like for a "weekend artist" sort of thing.

    2 How much money and time do you think a person has? I am not interested in becoming a mechanic nor do I particularly like to go out into the woods (allergies and bugs you see). Hey reading books is great I totally agree and I do it on a regular basis while I take the bus to work and back. You get condensed and particular knowledge in classes and somethings that cannot be learned unless passed on from a teacher (ofcourse you probably wouldn't know that but some things cannot be explained in books or self-taught). How are you supposed to learn all that while working and doing your other "life things" and not being a total social shut out?

    3 All that is true ... maybe in the 17th century when school was a form of control. I beg to differ about not being able to teach someone to be an artist. Where there is a will there is a way. Sure some people are born talented (whatever it may be) and they have a kick start on others, but if they don't do anything about it they will become like everyone else ... mediocre. If you want to be someone then you will be that someone no matter what, it's all a matter in how much you really want it and what you are willing to do about it. Like one of my teachers said "10% inspiration 90% perspiration". Sure there are a few geniuses here and there that see the world that much different from the rest of us but they are the exception not the rule. You make art out to be some kind of a "touchy feely thing" when art is a broad subject from fine to commercial; and in commercial art (the stuff that puts bread on your table) is where people dictate to you what they want. You think that people in the Renaissance were doing it all to say something?

    4 Huh? Is this some kind of untapped genetic knowledge like in Akira? You seem to think that people are born into who they are not what they make themselves to be. Don't think that people that are part of this site did nothing to become so good and it's just a breeze for them. Many of them worked hard to become so good and studied just as hard. They don't have a magical wand that poops out paintings on demand. By saying that you devalue all their hard work.

    5 Oh yes it can. It can make you inspired and competitive. Seeing the work of your peers is inspiring and just drives you to be so much better. I must repeat myself, some things cannot be perceived unless it comes directly from a teacher, it's a kind of insight. Text in a book and on screen is static ... how do you ask questions, how do you know when you are doing something wrong or right? There is no replacement for a teacher/tutor. Think of it like standing on the shoulders of giants.

    6 Who are they? The teachers? The government? The illuminati? If they wanted to control you so badly why would they charge so much? They aren't catering to the lowest common denominator, that's not very productive.

    7 Before you can be inspired and draw all your amazing art you have to know the basics. I guess Einstein went through all that useless schooling and was able to poop out a formula because his genes suddenly woke up. He just had a different take on physics but he still had to learn how to add and substract. His papers on relativity took 5 years to write, that's hardly a flick of a wand.



    8 Hey I totally agree with that guy. Education should be funded by the government and in the US it's a ripoff just like everything else ... but that's what you get in a capitalist country. Don't like it? Move to Canada, become Canadian. Education here is dirt cheap (I paid 100 can $ for a semester in school), or vote for someone who can make that change in your contry. Don't suffer in silence. Some people in US I know had to go to the military in order to earn more money to be able to attend college and get a decent education. These people had to go through hell and high water so that they could get where they wanted to be.

    9 I worked with people who were high-school drop outs in a printing press place. I feel very bad for them ... they didn't know anything about life, it was scary. They weren't bad people it was just so sad to see that they belived in some things that weren't true and it's all common knowledge. With their CV's they couldn't get hired anywhere else. I say just be thankful that your mom can afford to paint those paintings in her spare time and not spend her time working like a coal pony like all those other poor shmuchks that didn't go to college or school who have to have 2 full time jobs and still live in a van.
    1 Space slugs and starfighters... of course, I already said that there's a difference between being a commercial artist and then just being one because you have a need to.

    2 It is possible that I am somewhat of a total shut out. Or perhaps I don't have tunnel vision. I never said 'master other skills'. And you missed alot of what I wrote, that there is a good result of a mentor teaching his progeny. In other words, I don't deny the need of 'teaching.' I simply believe that a classroom setting is out of touch.

    3 School is a form of control now. I never debated the history of it though.
    If you want to be someone then you will be that someone no matter what, it's all a matter in how much you really want it and what you are willing to do about it.
    Isn't this what I was trying to say? Schooling just isn't a prerequisite for it.

    4 Nothing really revolts me more then humanism. And besides that, there's always the insinuation that I said it was easy. I did not. To the contrary I think I at least made it out that it was a difficult struggle in the extreme. You're trying to evoke the emotions of professional artists by hinting that I 'think its a breeze' for the select elite. And don't act indignant that 'they worked hard.' I know buddy that they worked hard. I also happen to know that I pale to many of them. Your entire statement here contrives the idea that I think nothing of artist. You know who devalues all the hard work of self taught people? People like you.

    5 Let me make a correction:
    Oh yes it can. It can make you competitive.
    And I think I went over my view on teachers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devilock138
    And you missed alot of what I wrote, that there is a good result of a mentor teaching his progeny. In other words, I don't deny the need of 'teaching.' I simply believe that a classroom setting is out of touch.
    6 Apparently you haven't seen the majority of Scad art galleries... the lowest common denominator happens to be their biggest draw.

    7 I... don't understand your analogy. If its related to good ideas taking a long time then we agree. If it relates to education in any form taking a long time then we agree. And, yes, genetics DID play a role in Einstien's case.
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...nsteins_brain/

    9 Jesus Christ man... that is the most asinine statement I have ever heard. I mean, seriously. What the hell are you thinking saying something that totally IGNORANT of life, of reality... What social dogma side of the bed did you wake up on man? My dad only had his GED and he brought home 125 grand a year. How expensive were the drugs your friends were using that after two full time jobs they were still living in vans? You know what, I'm not even gonna talk with you about this. Its like you're socially brainwashed or something to actually believe that people who don't go to college are going to be doomed, restless, unfulfilled, intellectually inferior vagabonds with no purpose in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnarchyAo2
    I didn't bother reading the whole thread, I'm way to lazy to do it, so if I'm saying something thats already been said, just ignore me.

    "Art degree: a waste of time?"
    No, its not. If you use that time wisely, and make good use of your opportunities, then its not. Though, I think you mean, "Is an art degree worth the money?". It depends, I think if your naturally dedicated to art, like, you don't force yourself to "practice", but you're obsessed with drawing, then an art degree may not be worth your money. Maybe you could take a few life drawing coarses, and some other classes, and become better own your own. BUT, if you're not like that, then maybe art college and getting a degree is worth the money. Art colleges make you practice, if you don't, you flunk, and waste a bunch of money. No one wants that, no matter how undedicated you are. So art colleges provides a deterrent for not practicing.
    Okay, maybe that's what I was trying to say.
    "They were born, they grew up in the gutters, they went to work at twelve, they passed through a brief blossoming period of beauty and sexual desire, they married at twenty, they were middle-aged at thirty, they died, for the most part, at sixty. Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer, and, above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds."

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    For me, I've learned a lot, I admit I don't like the GEs... but this is helping my art career along and is certainly helping me network. I don't think I would put as much dedication into art alone as I do schooling, because my motiviation is the fact I'm going into debt for it. well it makes sense to me, I dunno if itll make sense to you

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    to clear something up i DONT go to an art college. i might transfer to one but currently im at a typical university with an art department. i've heard a lot of good things about AC so im thinking of taking a tour down there sometime in the future.
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    2 It is possible that I am somewhat of a total shut out. Or perhaps I don't have tunnel vision. I never said 'master other skills'. And you missed alot of what I wrote, that there is a good result of a mentor teaching his progeny. In other words, I don't deny the need of 'teaching.' I simply believe that a classroom setting is out of touch.
    Taking a course in Geology is hardly mastering a skill, it's just a more convenient way to learn a little about something as opposed to going to a geological site and dig, don't you agree? I never said don't tinker in cars or go outdoors. There is too much knowledge out there (and it grows exponentialy by day) for a person to do what you propose (I can't learn about geology, math, astronomy, mechanics, and medicine in convenience the way you propose it). Your view says that schools are bad, get experience in real life. People are creatures of circumstance, sometimes you don't have access to things you want to learn about, that's why there are schools. You're telling people about the advantages of reinventing the wheel instead of using the knowledge that's already there. It's a duplication of effort. Perhaps some schools are out of touch (ie. religious schools), I don't know I haven't been to all of them to know that for a fact.

    3 School is a form of control now. I never debated the history of it though. Isn't this what I was trying to say? Schooling just isn't a prerequisite for it.
    Ok so where do you get that from? A form of control I mean, and by whom exactly? Remember we were talking about colleges/universities here (art schools) not high schools.

    Art is not handed down firstly. Its inherited, big difference. Teachers are rarely mentors and the antiquity of those beliefs is just that; antique. People are born and as they grow they *realize* that they have predisposed talent. For some people traditional art is as natural to them as someone who is naturally built well without much excercise. You can't teach someone something genetically passed down.
    Art is not inherited like the color of your hair or the size of your bones. Art (drawing/painting/sketching) is a skill that is learned. Some people have a predisposition to art, yes and it also has to do with your exposure to it as a child. Art isn't like hormones that kick in at a certain age. So yeah, you do devalue people's work by saying that it's genetically passed down. If that was true then only geniuses would give birth to geniuses, but we know that that's not the case.

    4 Your entire statement here contrives the idea that I think nothing of artist. You know who devalues all the hard work of self taught people? People like you.
    When you self-teach yourself you tend to pick up bad habits which you then have to unlearn when you really want to draw professionally. If you can afford it then you should definitely attend a professional school to learn how to draw properly (if you can afford it). I guess I am talking about illustrators and concept artists here, not fine artists, but then again this is conceprtart.org not fineart.org and the guy who started the thread wasn't planning to become a fine artist.

    6 Apparently you haven't seen the majority of Scad art galleries... the lowest common denominator happens to be their biggest draw.
    Sure, but you still haven't answered who they are.

    7 I... don't understand your analogy. If its related to good ideas taking a long time then we agree. If it relates to education in any form taking a long time then we agree. And, yes, genetics DID play a role in Einstien's case.
    It relates to the fact that Einstein got an education (Phd) and thus was able to come up with his ideas. If he didn't go to school he wouldn't have wrote his thesis on "a new determination of molecular dimensions", nor would he be able to proceed from there to write his 3 famous papers that changed physics forever.

    Ok I read the article. Guess what ... they don't know if the reason his brain is different because he was born that way or because it developed that way. If you read it re-read the last paragraph:

    "Her team's examination doesn't answer the deeper question of whether the development of specific parts of the brain can be linked to intelligence. Nor does it explain how this region came to be enlarged....If this happens, scientists will have an even bigger problem to ponder: Are some people born with brains that are naturally tuned for mathematical reasoning? Or, is this physical difference the product of experience? The idea that what a child sees, hears and feels influences the development of his or her brain is not as strange as it may first seem. There is a growing body of evidence that childhood experiences exert a strong influence on brain development..."

    9 How expensive were the drugs your friends were using that after two full time jobs they were still living in vans?
    Make fun of these people all you want but people like that exist in America. Want to know more? Read Nickel & Dimed

    ...people who don't go to college are going to be doomed, restless, unfulfilled, intellectually inferior vagabonds with no purpose in life.
    Sounds just about right. You see people learn good skills in college that get them high paying jobs. People without good skills get low paying jobs, unless they are super lucky or brilliant or driven, but then that's the exception not the rule. There are plenty of statistics out there that show that people that are unemployed or employed at low paying jobs are those that don't have the necessary skills to get hired at higher paying jobs which is a direct result of a lack of education.

    There aren't very many people out there that have the necessary discipline or drive or resources (ie. money) to learn things on their own at their own pace on their own time, that's what college is for.

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    You know, I only needed to see one thing to realize how out of touch with reality you are:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida
    Perhaps some schools are out of touch (ie. religious schools), I don't know I haven't been to all of them to know that for a fact.
    And then this...

    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida
    Sounds just about right. You see people learn good skills in college that get them high paying jobs. People without good skills get low paying jobs, unless they are super lucky or brilliant or driven, but then that's the exception not the rule. There are plenty of statistics out there that show that people that are unemployed or employed at low paying jobs are those that don't have the necessary skills to get hired at higher paying jobs which is a direct result of a lack of education.
    You know, USA today did an article a few months back about the massive amount of college grads who were taking low paying jobs like being waiters and such because they were getting rejected for people with 'practical experience.' And why don't you post some of your 'statistics'. There ARE plenty of statistics out there. But we all know that 10 out of 9 people make up statisics.

    The more an more I read what you write, the more and more I tend to think you lean towards the support of 'state education.' You're a liberal, aren't you? Brainwashed by, yes, the 'state'; those people that treat kids in highschools like prisoners and deny homeschoolers social security and label them as suspicious (go read an FBI document or two before you comment on that).

    And, yes, your goverment, does want the vast majority of its people to be stupid. If you were so incredibly corrupt would you want to be being looked at objectively by freethinking, intelligent individuals that would know how to fight for change? No. So you run the education system to ensure that only a few can get that spirit. I bet you think only Al Queda and the Mob are sources of conspiracy. So, let's see, make your people dumb and sheepish. Take their guns. Tell them that they all 'belong to each other' and you won't NEED to worry about them. You consolidate their radio statyions so they can't hear antigovernment music (there's alot out there, no station down here would ever play the sex pistols Anarchy or Bodies). You let corporations make money off of movies that desensitize and dehumanize your public. You let corporations who kill millions of your citizens stay around because of the enormous campaign funds they donate. Then you get people to look around, see that they have a 40 thousand dollar sports car, a hundred thousand dollar house and make them think that these are what's important. You tell them its their 'dream'. And since they've become so stupid and obsessive about the perpetuation of their life they no longer see the big picture. They can't hear the screams of discontent and dissent. They become good little citizens and pick a nice, fabricated party; democrat, republican, liberal or conservative. So single minded the public has become. They're easy to control and so, as usual, the same bleeders are spouting that education can only come from the source of knowledge... books written by government approved corporations. People with eyes opened know their vote doesn't matter; even if your elected offical makes it. They are played both sides from the middle, against each other to take the draw of attention. Abortion, education, taxes, war... all these are is subjects that fluxuate in success and failure to let the public believe that they are making a difference.

    So, let me ask you before we continue: What ARE the necessary skills? Do you think people who don't sit down to work are uneducated? Do you think people who come home dirty and sweaty are uneducated? I mean, seriously, you are the most smug, naive doodler on the planet. Do you think that doctors are smarter then master mechanics? Do you believe lawyers are smarter then master carpenters? What is the basis of your purely hopeful belief that if YOU spent all that money on something you might be afraid you didn't have to learn at college then every else should? Because that's what it looks like. You're exactly the person to overlook someone because they chose a different path then you and the rest of 'the club'. Not everyone wants to sit down and have soft hands cupcake.

    You know who I see in jail, living miserably, unguided and hopeless? Those guys who, while they WERE in school didn't pay attention. Who while they were there spent their time in pipe-dreams and not understanding the value, not of school, but of at least learning what they were being taught there. All the 35 year old laborers who have worked for us all have one thing in common: a bad home life growing up. In school they all had the same 'me' mentality. They were all 'victims', had nowhere to go and nothing really to live for. And, yes, they ALL did drugs. That was what they do with their money. THEY did it to themselves, it wasn't society rejecting them because they were stupid. They rejected society by not learning the realities of life by the age of 18, the age were common sense is our accumulation of knowledge. They MADE themselves stupid.

    You can't TEACH someone to be imaginative. You can't teach someone to think. You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make him drink.

    I know a guy who graduated and went to college. He can't change his oil. He can't read even blueprints; he might as well try to read ancient chinese. He can't understand the importance of the most basic, bottom of the ladder needs; that school and college will NOT prepare you for life. Anyone who goes to college thinking that it'll be an 'ace in the hole' for later on is absolutely lying to themselves. You know who got lucky? You did. You know who got lucky? I did. Anyone who 'makes it' makes it because they were at the right place at the right time. And maybe you don't realize that the struggle of life is what we use to make ourselves. For people who have only slipped through and gotten lucky a few times when a real crisis hits, the ones who haven't had as hard a struggle will be the farthest ones behind. You believe in school. I believe in education. And that's that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaPalida
    There aren't very many people out there that have the necessary discipline or drive or resources (ie. money) to learn things on their own at their own pace on their own time, that's what college is for.
    Heh, usually, if someone doesn't have the money to learn things on their own... its gonna be kinda hard for them to spend that money (ie. ...resources) on college. Go out. Get a job. Learn discipline. Life is long, but its short if you treat it like it is.

    Plus, why are you hitting this again? I've already said that its necessary for people who are going into a profession where a university is the only place where that can be gotten... like doctors and lawyers and microfusion engineers... Lets not blow out the colon of exaggeration here.
    Last edited by Devilock138; September 14th, 2004 at 05:01 PM.
    "They were born, they grew up in the gutters, they went to work at twelve, they passed through a brief blossoming period of beauty and sexual desire, they married at twenty, they were middle-aged at thirty, they died, for the most part, at sixty. Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer, and, above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds."

    Sketchbook
    Alex Jones

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